OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped and BBM:

I wonder if it's possible that one of the spouses fell down an incline and was injured (a broken leg, say, or just a sprained ankle) and the other spouse, and naturally the child, stayed with him/her.

If Bobby was disabled, you would necessarily need break or a sprain. He could have passed his personal "point of no return" without realizing it.

You have a lot going on in the Jamison's life that could point to anything.

I would not rule out a third party foul play situation, either.

 

[wfgodot]

In Tags (below), I've added mtrooper's best estimate coords as to where bodies were found (b) and labeled the truck coords (t). Also the section (28-T 7N-20E) of body location in Grassy Lake Hollow.

Correcting this per mtrooper - they were found in a section called Smokestack Hollow.

 

[wfgodot]

In general, I have an Occam's Razor point of view, in that the simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Up to this point, I've focused only on the possibility that the Jamisons became lost in the woods and perished from the elements. The authorities report that no foul play seems apparent, so this leads me to believe there are no bullet holes or stab marks evident in the remains, no broken hyoids, no bindings, blindfolds, or gags, and no weapon found at the scene.

Of course, there are other possibilities; murder-suicide being one, and a double-suicide pact with the murder of Madyson being another. But, even considering that the two adults may have been in a deranged state of mind, I can't think of any probable scenario in which the Jamisons became wound up that far from their truck without some outside party being involved. The three of them would've had to hike for miles, up a mountain and down the other side, before the deed was done. If they were trying to escape from immediate danger, yes, I could see that. But just to find a hidden place to do away themselves? Not really. There would have been dozens of good hiding places much closer, places where they probably never would have been found. It just doesn't compute. If you believe otherwise, then lay out a likely scenario for me and maybe I'll change my mind.

Now, if we consider the possibility of murder by an outside party, then I can think of a few scenarios in which this might happen. Perhaps the family stumbled across a pot farm or a meth operation. Either seems feasible within the remote geography of Panola Mountain. The cult theory put forth by Sherilyn's mother is way too far-fetched, so I'm tossing that one. What other reasons would cause someone to eliminate an entire family? Did they have the rotten luck of crossing paths with a homicidal maniac like Israel Keyes? Maybe it was someone the Jamisons knew, someone with a grudge against them. Too many possibilities to choose from without further info.

Anyway, if the Jamisons were killed by an outside party, I see two possibilities:

1. They were confronted and killed where they were found and their truck was driven to the other side of the mountain to divert LE away from the actual location of the bodies.

2. They were taken from where their truck was parked and driven to the spot where they were found.

I can think of a number of variations within these two possibilities but, at the moment, I'm focused on the roads that might have been traveled between the truck and the location of the remains, assuming the Jamisons were murdered by someone they encountered on the mountain.

I just spent a couple of hours tracing several possible routes from one point to the other on Google Earth (I'm a map freak, what can I say?). This required zooming in very closely and what I saw was that most of these roads barely qualify as roads. Some only occasionally discernible, others deeply rutted, all of them poorly maintained, if at all. Any of these roads would be a wild ride under the best of circumstances and, if it's been raining, forget about it. Also, these routes cross several creeks and there are no bridges on any of them. None. You simply drive through the water to the other side, apparently. No way would I ever attempt to negotiate any of them in my little Honda. No way.

What this tells me is 1) you'd need a heavy-duty truck to travel these roads, preferably with four-wheel drive, and 2) whoever drives these roads must know the area intimately or have a very good map or GPS system, because there are numerous crossroads, switchbacks, turnoffs that lead nowhere, and places where the road seems to peter out entirely, only to become visibly a road again a quarter-mile further on. To me, this makes a wandering serial killer seem more unlikely. Maybe one native to the area, but an outsider would've had a tough time finding his way around this mountain without lots and lots of cussing and backtracking.

Okay, here's your visual aids. The first is the dirt road leading away from the location of the remains where it cross Mountain Fork:

See? No bridge. The second one shows three possible routes around the mountain. The one in red seems to be the best bet:

Quoting this in its entirety because it's too good not to. (And because it includes something I thought at the very beginning and thus reinforces an original opinion I had, lol.) The first thought I had, about what had befallen the benighted Jamisons, was that they had stumbled on a pot or meth operation and thus and immediately "knew too much." It's true that this was before the big reveal, that they, too, might have had meth problems, but I'm not sure if that lessens the possibility that they had done the above accidentally and were summarily then "dealt with."

I've gone through all the "what happened?" permutations (except, possibly, the "witness protection program" one) and had fallen into, in recent months, just concluding, "They're at the bottom of Lake Eufaula" in terms of where they might (or never would) be found. I think there's enough evidence to conclude, though, that they quite possibly met their demise at the hands of another, or others. Still - I have no real idea, not really. Okiegranny's speculations above, though, with their concrete revealations about terrain (along with mtrooper's earlier posts about same), do come close to what I suppose I, too, conclude.

The matters sliced away by Occam's Razor are, to me, the endless speculations about meth madness, bipolar behaviors, religious or irreligious frenzy - the notion that perhaps fugue states created confusion and the locked keys triggered a trek on rugged Panola in Oklahoma's Sans Bois range. These are interesting to talk about but, to me, in the end, simply add to the case what need not be added to reach a conclusion about what happened to this family: they met their fate when they met those who sought to do them harm, those who left Maisie in the truck and deposited their bodies in Smokestack Hollow.

 

[hollye]

So based on the information from mtrooper that the remains were found in Smokestack Hollow, which is a valley in the San Bois Mountains that runs along the Mountain Fork, I amended my map. I added a location for Smokestack Hollow, based on this map... http://aroundguides.com/21448656/Map. However, that puts Smokestack Hollow only 2.28 miles from the location of the truck. Many reports have stated that the remains were found approximately 2.7 miles from the location of the truck, so I added several markers to show approximately 2.7 miles from the truck, many of which run along or near the Mountain Fork and Smokestack Valley.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...&ll=35.028872,-95.225029&spn=0.093196,0.15707

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped:

1. They were confronted and killed where they were found and their truck was driven to the other side of the mountain to divert LE away from the actual location of the bodies.


2. They were taken from where their truck was parked and driven to the spot where they were found.

I couldn't find any roads close (about 1000 feet) to where the bodies were found. That would mean either marching the Jamisons to the location (which, as noted, would need someone familiar with the area) or dragging their bodies to the area. Even for multiple killers, it would be difficult, and would probably leave traces (broken low hanging branches, drag marks) even after the storm.

Moving them in their truck, alive or dead, would most likely leave forensic traces in the truck, from the killer. Further, their truck might have additional evidence from the route to the site where their bodies were located (grass, leaves, even bugs).

What this tells me is 1) you'd need a heavy-duty truck to travel these roads, preferably with four-wheel drive, and 2) whoever drives these roads must know the area intimately or have a very good map or GPS system, because there are numerous crossroads, switchbacks, turnoffs that lead nowhere, and places where the road seems to peter out entirely, only to become visibly a road again a quarter-mile further on. To me, this makes a wandering serial killer seem more unlikely. Maybe one native to the area, but an outsider would've had a tough time finding his way around this mountain without lots and lots of cussing and backtracking.

I wouldn't rule out meeting someone or even being chased to that location, very possibly by someone who knew the area.

 

[Cherry]

I am confused was their death ruled homicide?

 

[hollye]

Snipped:




I couldn't find any roads close (about 1000 feet) to where the bodies were found. That would mean either marching the Jamisons to the location (which, as noted, would need someone familiar with the area) or dragging their bodies to the area. Even for multiple killers, it would be difficult, and would probably leave traces (broken low hanging branches, drag marks) even after the storm.

Moving them in their truck, alive or dead, would most likely leave forensic traces in the truck, from the killer. Further, their truck might have additional evidence from the route to the site where their bodies were located (grass, leaves, even bugs).




I wouldn't rule out meeting someone or even being chased to that location, very possibly by someone who knew the area.

Problem is that we don't know exactly where the remains were found. The closest we have is Smokestack Hollow, courtesy of mtrooper, and approximately 2.7 miles northwest of the truck location. Given those parameters, there are a couple of roads, specifically the one that run approximately parallel north to south to the east of Mountain Fork that takes you north of Smokestack Hollow and ends at a road that then runs back southeast and crosses over Mountain Fork. These roads, though maybe difficult to drive on, can take you from where the truck was found to the general area where the remains were found, IMO. I marked the main roads on the map.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...=0&ll=35.03843,-95.225716&spn=0.18637,0.31414

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am confused was their death ruled homicide?

I don't think so. For my part, I'm looking at possibilities.

 

[hollye]

I am confused was their death ruled homicide?

The cause of death has not been determined yet.

 

[Jackalyn]

Could it be they were vulnerable as mentally ill, targeted by a cult and then somehow fell foul of them? I cannot see why being mentally ill and having problems with a cult cannot go hand in hand as that kind of operation preys on the vulnerable. I can see getting to know too much about a cult could put someone in danger.

It is a long story but for a brief period in my teens I knew someone who actually was living in fear due to escaping a cult. He just knew too much and had been too high up.

In my experience of the church, I have also heard some wacky ideas. Had some wierd experiences and been told of some I found even wackier that those I had experienced.

I have also had some real experiences that might sound very wacky unless they were in context.

It does actually sound to me like two vulnerable and unstable people started looking for religious answers and that pushed them further into their own illness, but that there was an outside force using that vulnerability. Pass them off as unstable and they must have killed themselves or just got lost.

 

[nevereverever]

I am confused was their death ruled homicide?

No. Neither a manner or cause of death has been released. LE has been quoted as saying they did not suspect foul play at this time.

 

[wfgodot]

Here's a pretty good summary of the case to date from Las Vegas Guardian-Express; cherry-picks the May 2010 Oklahoman article (linked above) to a great extent for tabloid-friendly material, but a decent intro, nevertheless, for someone just coming to this case:

http://guardianlv.com/2013/11/missing-oklahoma-family-demons-and-drugs/

 

[OkieGranny]

Here's a pretty good summary of the case to date from Las Vegas Guardian-Express; cherry-picks the May 2010 Oklahoman article (linked above) to a great extent for tabloid-friendly material, but a decent intro, nevertheless, for someone just coming to this case:

http://guardianlv.com/2013/11/missing-oklahoma-family-demons-and-drugs/

Just checked the news; a bit saddened to see that the initial flurry of attention is fading away already.

Something that's been bothering me all week is that the home page here on WS features the McStays prominently and not a single word about the Jamisons. Not to take anything away from the McStays, but these two cases are equally compelling mysteries with some eerie parallels, IMO, so why one and not the other?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Could it be they were vulnerable as mentally ill, targeted by a cult and then somehow fell foul of them? I cannot see why being mentally ill and having problems with a cult cannot go hand in hand as that kind of operation preys on the vulnerable. I can see getting to know too much about a cult could put someone in danger.

It is a long story but for a brief period in my teens I knew someone who actually was living in fear due to escaping a cult. He just knew too much and had been too high up.

In my experience of the church, I have also heard some wacky ideas. Had some wierd experiences and been told of some I found even wackier that those I had experienced.

I have also had some real experiences that might sound very wacky unless they were in context.

It does actually sound to me like two vulnerable and unstable people started looking for religious answers and that pushed them further into their own illness, but that there was an outside force using that vulnerability. Pass them off as unstable and they must have killed themselves or just got lost.

Seventh Day Adventists are relatively close to conservative mainline Protestants. That said, I know extremist Episcopalians.

Someone sick can take anything to a perverse extreme.

I'm not of that denomination, but they seem very close to how many Christians view it today:

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1987/04/demons-and-deliverance

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/warfare/brisumm.htm

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just checked the news; a bit saddened to see that the initial flurry of attention is fading away already.

Something that's been bothering me all week is that the home page here on WS features the McStays prominently and not a single word about the Jamisons. Not to take anything away from the McStays, but these two cases are equally compelling mysteries with some eerie parallels, IMO, so why one and not the other?

1. CA is bigger than OK. More people know about the McStay case simply because it is closer to more people. I only know about this case because a blogger I read wrote about it.

2. The McStay were more clearly murdered by a third party. The Jamisons may not have been.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't know if it was posted, but is a pre-find news story: Missing Jamison Family - YouTube

It did note that the property was up the road, so it could have been around the area where the bodies were found.

 

[wfgodot]

Just checked the news; a bit saddened to see that the initial flurry of attention is fading away already.

Something that's been bothering me all week is that the home page here on WS features the McStays prominently and not a single word about the Jamisons. Not to take anything away from the McStays, but these two cases are equally compelling mysteries with some eerie parallels, IMO, so why one and not the other?

Good question. Discussed just this a couple days back with someone who knows what's up with things, and she pointed out that, while there are certainly similarities, it's the differences that tell the story: the McStays are perceived as a traditional middle class California family whose disappearance from the safety of their home led to speculation about many things, including business matters - things with which most can (safely) identify.

The Jamisons, however, disappeared on what some might see as an unlikely trip to the scrubby mountains of SE OK, there perhaps to seek to live off the grid in a (wait for it) shipping container (albeit one sizable enough to house their small family). Further, the Daily Oklahoman article referred to above - which detailed a possible belief-system comprised of ghosts and demons and magic bullets, fueled perhaps by methamphetamine madness, led to a belief in some that, whatever had happened to the Jamisons, Bobby and Sherilyn, living a certain lifestyle with no visible means of support, had brought it on themselves. That article successfully demonized the Jamisons.

Further, the county sheriff called them "scammers" (based in part on their high incidence of filing lawsuits and the possible perception that Bobby's disability was not necessarily quite so severe). A disagreement with the school board had caused them to yank their child out of class and home-schooling was in the picture. None of these are the comfortable-sounding details like those surrounding the lives the McStays evidently led - in their case authorities did look into the possibility of money-laundering and cartels, but could find nothing.

But, in the case of the Jamisons, nothing concrete could be found, either, regarding either drug use or drug sales. Possible money-laundering, though, would be a white collar crime; drug distribution and abuse is not. Even the pictures told the story: the one which possibly showed the McStays crossing the border was safe; the video of the Jamisons making endless, perhaps mindless, treks to their vehicle and back? Yikes.

As J.J. in Phila points out, it's also true that CA is a populous state and Oklahoma is not - OK is a flyover state, while Cali is sexy. That itself, along with the above, guaranteed the press would stay on the McStay case and keep it front and center. To me, none of the details above matter - no matter what the Jamisons were, where they lived, or how they met their ends, none of this should detract from the fact that, somehow, a family of three died cruel deaths. Yes, the Jamisons, of Eufuala OK, should be given, here especially, equal billing with the McStay family of southern California.

 

[Foxfire]

Just checked the news; a bit saddened to see that the initial flurry of attention is fading away already.

Something that's been bothering me all week is that the home page here on WS features the McStays prominently and not a single word about the Jamisons. Not to take anything away from the McStays, but these two cases are equally compelling mysteries with some eerie parallels, IMO, so why one and not the other?

Imo, OkieGranny, there are many reasons. The primary difference in the two families is that the McStay family was located first, in shallow graves, instantly declared a homicide by LE as a homicide investigation. Also, imo, a book was prematurely written about the McStays, added controversy due to allegations of a botched investigation which created awareness, and the area they disappeared from was a large metro area with enormous media resources, etc.

Many times the catalyst for ms media coverage and awareness is enhanced or decreased by the lead investigative agency's media management strategy/policy. Sadly, OK, LEAs are known for their antiquated close to the vest media management strategy of silence, & mounting cold cases imo..

 

[mck16]

I wonder if the authorities back tracked the path or a path of the Jamison's to their truck. I also read that the truck was locked but that the keys were in the ignition. Is this a fact? Maybe they were locked out accidentally and began to walk looking for assistance. Just so confusing and so much speculation. Wish we had more facts of the case. jmo

 

[OkieGranny]

And yet I'd argue that some of those factors make the Jamisons even more interesting, but that's JMO, lol.