OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #2 *Arrests*

[nao]

Moo...it could be LE in the black truck. Or the you tubers have been advertising they are on this case. So could just be someone toying with them..moo

 

[shefner]

So only people listed on the official custody documents could be involved?

I think @MassGuy was saying that the reason people are discussing the grandmother and not the grandfather is because she is the one watching the children and she is the one listed in the custody documents. There isn't much we can say about the grandfather if he is not mentioned in mainstream media and if he is not listed in the court/custody documents that are publicly available to us.

 

[kccorona]

I have a thought that just came to me watching the video posted just now by @CrowsCaw - now that there are some national media on the ground with drone capability and several vehicles/staff to cover the area, surely there is some knowledge or way to determine if investigators have physically been near or around land/farms/properties/residences that belong to those related to VB’s children and/or their father.

Madeline Kingsbury’s case came to mind, when drone or MSM footage captured the state police at the home of her ex-boyfriend’s family, before it was *officially* known the reason they were actually there, which I believe later came out was to serve a warrant and at another point to accompany CPS to place Madeline’s children in state custody. It’s entirely possible I’m getting the facts and timelines mixed up regarding publicly known info vs media footage simply of police presence at a house. And I definitely believe this area in OK is more rural than the MN property I’m referencing above, but I do find it very interesting (and honestly eerie) that there have been NO reported or leaked rumors regarding law enforcement presence at various places, properties, even gas stations as in the video above. Take into account how small of a town this is, and it’s even stranger there haven’t been more rumors, although of course we can’t discuss them here anyway.
This could also account for part of the silence from OSBI- no public rumors or knowledge means less info to dispute/dispel so if they don’t need help searching or with tips, there really isn’t a *need* to speak to the public until there’s an actual break in the case, I suppose.

All of the above is my own rambling thoughts and opinions.

 

[shefner]

I hate the waiting game, don't you? Yet it always seems to come down to one.
Meanwhile, some wise words from the master himself:
'Crime is common. Logic is rare.
Therefore it is upon the logic rather than the crime that you should dwell.'
~S. Holmes

 

[Trino]

No more info that I can see on this scary event. What is interesting is that the 2 podcasters who were interviewed by News Nation reported that they were also followed by a big black truck with blacked out window and I believe they mentioned this to the reporter from News Nation. MOO

Local "would be" mafia. Kinda like the Mississippi Goon Squad?

 

[shefner]

It would be a glaring flaw if the meet-up at Four Corners was a ruse because too many people had foreknowledge of the planned custody exchange. After all, Jilian's family knew why and where she was going that day. Veronica's friends knew too, as we have read reports that at least one of her friends had talked to Veronica about it.

If the meeting place was changed at the last minute, there would likely be a digital trail exposing it. Such a change would have required at least one phone call between the guardian and Veronica to nail down the new location. It's likely the children would have overheard such a call and would later reveal it in a police interview. It's also possible Jilian would have mentioned it in a call to her husband. To change the location once the women were en route would have been too risky.

This is why I think the custody exchange at Four Corners was legit.
Other things I think:
The perp/s had full knowledge of the custody exchange....they knew place and time.
They knew what type of car Veronica drove.
They knew the typical route she took.
They knew who was in the car.
Their goal was to make sure Veronica not only missed the custody exchange at Four Corners.
Their goal was to make sure she would never get to court for the upcoming custody hearing.

 

[Cedars]

To change the location once the women were en route would have been too risky.

This is why I think the custody exchange at Four Corners was legit.

RSBM

I agree, however, I think it would be a simple matter for the kids to just not be there 'yet', when the victims arrived. And something else happened. Car is driven north, to make it appear they never made it. Then, perhaps, after kids arrive they wait, and wait, and no one comes. So that's what they'll tell the police - kids that age are too young to be precise about time, IMO.

 

[Ksfarmer8]

It would be a glaring flaw if the meet-up at Four Corners was a ruse because too many people had foreknowledge of the planned custody exchange. After all, Jilian's family knew why and where she was going that day. Veronica's friends knew too, as we have read reports that at least one of her friends had talked to Veronica about it.

If the meeting place was changed at the last minute, there would likely be a digital trail exposing it. Such a change would have required at least one phone call between the guardian and Veronica to nail down the new location. It's likely the children would have overheard such a call and would later reveal it in a police interview. It's also possible Jilian would have mentioned it in a call to her husband. To change the location once the women were en route would have been too risky.

This is why I think the custody exchange at Four Corners was legit.
Other things I think:
The perp/s had full knowledge of the custody exchange....they knew place and time.
They knew what type of car Veronica drove.
They knew the typical route she took.
They knew who was in the car.
Their goal was to make sure Veronica not only missed the custody exchange at Four Corners.
Their goal was to make sure she would never get to court for the upcoming custody hearing.

Agree.
IMO I believe LE is delaying information as they are wanting to locate the two deceased victims. A lot can be learned from locating the deceased such as how they got there, autopsy results as to when and where they died, method of death, who could have moved the bodies etc. IMO LE has many suspicions and probable POI and is looking for additional evidence to solidify their case. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

I hate the waiting game, don't you? Yet it always seems to come down to one.
Meanwhile, some wise words from the master himself:
'Crime is common. Logic is rare.
Therefore it is upon the logic rather than the crime that you should dwell.'
~S. Holmes

I especially hate the waiting game when we know as little as we do here. Generally, we have a lot more information at this stage.

 

[NDreu]

Just MOO...I take everything from News Nation with a heavy side of salt.

Right now News Nation are the only news organization willing to invest to put boots on the ground locally and chase the story and so I have to give them credit for sticking with the story and also promoting it with their other on air personalities.

All the other major online and onair news organizations seem to just be 'reposting' News Nation imo and haven't invested to put boots on the ground in OK that I can see.

FWIW News Nation is only game in town right now on this story that is considered 'MSM'.

Some legal analysts on youtube are doing some solid work on the story but its surprising to not see the major OK daily papers investing in following the story. I think the Oklahoman has done just a single article on the story. The OK local on air stations don't seem to be investing in boots on the ground type local reporting but are giving air time to follow up type stories. National 'news' organizations are giving the story some air time on morning shows and evening broadcasts.

Citizen journalists who have been local on this story since Day 2 imo have been the real stars of this story but sadly their commentary isn't permitted here.

MOO

 

[shefner]

RSBM

I agree, however, I think it would be a simple matter for the kids to just not be there 'yet', when the victims arrived. And something else happened. Car is driven north, to make it appear they never made it. Then, perhaps, after kids arrive they wait, and wait, and no one comes. So that's what they'll tell the police - kids that age are too young to be precise about time, IMO.

Yes. I think the timing is crucial in this case. If the women made it all the way to Four Corners, they probably wouldn't have arrived until around 9:45am at the earliest. The passerby saw the blue Kia with the window shattered out just after 10am. Taking the Kia back to the gravel road where it was found would take about 10 minutes.

If they didn't make it all the way to Four Corners, then that would necessitate they were diverted along the way. If a change was made to the meeting place, there would be a traceable phone call. A phone call changing the meeting place likely would have prompted Jilian to call her husband. After all, these parties are involved in a very contentious custody case so a last minute change would have been a red flag.

There is also the mention of Veronica and Jilian being diverted earlier in their trip, either by being run off the road or chased. This would mean there is a secondary location where the original crime took place. The perp (or one of them) would need to remove the victims from the car so he could drive it to the area where it was eventually located. He would need to drive down the open road without being seen and have the car in place by 10am, giving him time to flee. This is risky for several reasons, two of which are the potential for eyewitnesses and the possibility of leaving traceable evidence in the vehicle. This driver would also need a getaway, which would require yet another accomplice. The more perpetrators/accomplices, the greater likelihood someone will talk.

Then we have the possibility the women were diverted onto the gravel road where the Kia was found. We took note yesterday that a significant amount of litter was placed in that area. It was also reported glass was found there. This leads me to think that spot might have been the original crime scene.

 

[NDreu]

It would be a glaring flaw if the meet-up at Four Corners was a ruse because too many people had foreknowledge of the planned custody exchange. After all, Jilian's family knew why and where she was going that day. Veronica's friends knew too, as we have read reports that at least one of her friends had talked to Veronica about it.

If the meeting place was changed at the last minute, there would likely be a digital trail exposing it. Such a change would have required at least one phone call between the guardian and Veronica to nail down the new location. It's likely the children would have overheard such a call and would later reveal it in a police interview. It's also possible Jilian would have mentioned it in a call to her husband. To change the location once the women were en route would have been too risky.

This is why I think the custody exchange at Four Corners was legit.
Other things I think:
The perp/s had full knowledge of the custody exchange....they knew place and time.
They knew what type of car Veronica drove.
They knew the typical route she took.
They knew who was in the car.
Their goal was to make sure Veronica not only missed the custody exchange at Four Corners.
Their goal was to make sure she would never get to court for the upcoming custody hearing.

FWIW I don't believe either party would risk the ire of the Court with ANY change to the Court Order protocols for the custody exchange as there was simply too much at risk imo with the upcoming Court hearing. Four Corners was the mandated meeting spot by the Court and as you say was 'legit'.

We just don't know if the ladies ever made it there and we also don't know if anyone else showed up at the appointed meeting time.

The history on the case has been extensive and the finger pointing of the parties has gone on for years in a long game of 'tit for tat'.

Its in nobody's best interest to rock the boat at this point and mess with the protocols put in place with the Judge as doing so imo risks the anger of the Judge who will make a determination on many key issues associated with the children.

MOO

 

[shefner]

FWIW I don't believe either party would risk the ire of the Court with ANY change to the Court Order protocols for the custody exchange as there was simply too much at risk imo with the upcoming Court hearing. Four Corners was the mandated meeting spot by the Court and as you say was 'legit'.

We just don't know if the ladies ever made it there and we also don't know if anyone else showed up at the appointed meeting time.

The history on the case has been extensive and the finger pointing of the parties has gone on for years in a long game of 'tit for tat'.

Its in nobody's best interest to rock the boat at this point and mess with the protocols put in place with the Judge as doing so imo risks the anger of the Judge who will make a determination on many key issues associated with the children.

MOO

I don't think there was any change.

 

[Gae]

I especially hate the waiting game when we know as little as we do here. Generally, we have a lot more information at this stage.

Agree. I can't remember a case where the only information given by LE is "foul play suspected" - for days, and nothing else. It's also the only time I can remember where we didn't see public outcries, prayer vigils, candlelight services, public pleas from family and friends. Everything about this is really weird.

 

[flowershop]

The NewsNation reporter states that the police in this county have only solved 1/3 of the homicides in Texas County, OK in the past six years.

Laura Ingle goes on to report that locals do not want to be on camera.

There is footage of the area where the women's vehicle was found abandoned.

 

[Gae]

The NewsNation reporter states that the police in this county have only solved 1/3 of the homicides in Texas County, OK in the past six years.

Laura Ingle goes on to report that locals do not want to be on camera.

There is footage of the area where the women's vehicle was found abandoned.

That's not much lower than the national average of about 50%. In this day and age it's pretty sad that about half of the time - people still get away with it.

 

[Universecalling]

Some churches have specific missions directed towards assisting these types of mothers. My wife volunteered for such a mission once sorting donations.

Were some of those volunteers also court ordered supervisors?

And how does the logistical side of things work in a case of a long weekend stay, or overnight stay?

Is it a twin queen beds, one bedroom, and limited privacy kind of situation?
Besides the obvious intrusion of privacy, I would think it would carry an amount of risk, especially during the night when people are in their most vulnerable state. That sounds like an improbable scenario to me.
Excuse my ignorance on this topi; in fact I’d like to learn more.
How do you ensure you’re fulfilling your supervisor duty properly during overnight stays?
Or are overnight stays not a thing?
Thank you in advance!

 

[steeltowngirl]

RSBM

I agree, however, I think it would be a simple matter for the kids to just not be there 'yet', when the victims arrived. And something else happened. Car is driven north, to make it appear they never made it. Then, perhaps, after kids arrive they wait, and wait, and no one comes. So that's what they'll tell the police - kids that age are too young to be precise about time, IMO.

That would work. If someone else did move the car, their fingerprints should be on the door handle and steering wheel - unless they were well prepared with gloves, or wiped it all down. There surely would be no reason for anyone on the other side of the custody battle to have prints inside the car.

jmo

 

[shefner]

That would work. If someone else did move the car, their fingerprints should be on the door handle and steering wheel - unless they were well prepared with gloves, or wiped it all down. There surely would be no reason for anyone on the other side of the custody battle to have prints inside the car.

jmo

And they would have very little time to accomplish all this. The return trip to the gravel road takes about 10 minutes. That would leave about 5 minutes to commit the crime and clean up.

 

[Universecalling]

That would work. If someone else did move the car, their fingerprints should be on the door handle and steering wheel - unless they were well prepared with gloves, or wiped it all down. There surely would be no reason for anyone on the other side of the custody battle to have prints inside the car.

jmo

I hope they moved the car, because that would be one of the most careless moves they could’ve made.
Unless they were covered in wrap head to toe, wiping prints is the least of their problems.
Skin cells, smallest of body hairs, touch DNA, sweat, etc. and if the car was processed top notch, I think there’s at least 30% probability they get something.
Maybe that 30% is too high, but I’ll take 10% as long as there’s a chance.