OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #2 *Arrests*

[Universecalling]

This is a silly question, but I’ll ask anyway.
If this was a hired hit, done by one of those highly skilled professionals…
Would they bother w the bodies?
I’m thinking they wouldn’t because people like that carry out payment plans and operations seldom leaving a trace. And if you have confidence you’ll never be found, why take a additional risk?

 

[Cedars]

And they would have very little time to accomplish all this. The return trip to the gravel road takes about 10 minutes. That would leave about 5 minutes to commit the crime and clean up.

My main objection is to the idea of somehow forcing the women to drive a fair distance down a gravel side road. ETA: and then somehow getting them to stop, and not just keep driving.

I've never heard of a crime being committed that way, by someone in another vehicle.

We see it in multiple-car police chases in movies, but the police are just trying to get the vehicle to stop, not funnel the car somewhere specific.

Someone in a moving car has a lot of options, including doing a u-turn, coming to a stop on the highway and calling for help, and so on.

Also, it's so uncertain whether another vehicle might come along while this aggressive behaviour was happening.

In a current alleged 'murder over custody' case, something was left on a road the victim had to travel, so he got out to move it, and was shot. But it was a very quiet road, not a highway.

I wonder whether someone could have been waiting on the highway and waved them down, then just leaned in and shot them, quickly moving the car. Such a risk of being seen, tho.

JMO

 

[Knox]

News Nation Interview of regional person searching the local area from VB and JK by Ashley Banfield - talking about local people being scared to speak out for fear of being “next”.

Just curious why locals are afraid of being next? Speak out about what? Has OBI given any cautionary statements about the public's safety?

For instance in the Rachel Morin murder case, the Sheriff issued a public safety warning. I've seen nothing like that in this case?

Who are locals afraid of?

 

[charmingbetsy]

I think @MassGuy was saying that the reason people are discussing the grandmother and not the grandfather is because she is the one watching the children and she is the one listed in the custody documents. There isn't much we can say about the grandfather if he is not mentioned in mainstream media and if he is not listed in the court/custody documents that are publicly available to us.

In a recent NN interview, a private investigator did reference the grandfather and some of his charges of drugs and strangulation, which are in public record. Although I don't love NN, it seems to be considered MSM here and I believe this news clip would open the door to discussing the grandfather's criminal history.

 

[MassGuy]

This is a silly question, but I’ll ask anyway.
If this was a hired hit, done by one of those highly skilled professionals…
Would they bother w the bodies?
I’m thinking they wouldn’t because people like that carry out payment plans and operations seldom leaving a trace. And if you have confidence you’ll never be found, why take an additional risk?

I can’t think of a case where a hitman has done that, and I certainly can’t fathom a hitman or hitmen doing that with two bodies.

The whole point of a hired hit is to distance yourself from the crime. One way you do that is to establish a rock solid alibi during the time of the crime.

The people doing the hit generally already have that distance, as they aren’t connected to the victim. So there’s no need to hide bodies.

Except here, if that did happen, I think there is a connection, at least as far as one of the killers goes (I think there’s two killers).

 

[Universecalling]

I can’t think of a case where a hitman has done that, and I certainly can’t fathom a hitman or hitmen doing that with two bodies.

The whole point of a hired hit is to distance yourself from the crime. One way you do that is to establish a rock solid alibi during the time of the crime.

The people doing the hit generally already have that distance, as they aren’t connected to the victim. So there’s no need to hide bodies.

Except here, if that did happen, I think there is a connection, at least as far as one of the killers goes (I think there’s two killers).

Nailed it.
And that gives a better chance that some trace was left.
I’m not confident that those all involved were masterminds and flawless executors of this heinous act.

 

[mst]

It would be a glaring flaw if the meet-up at Four Corners was a ruse because too many people had foreknowledge of the planned custody exchange. After all, Jilian's family knew why and where she was going that day. Veronica's friends knew too, as we have read reports that at least one of her friends had talked to Veronica about it.

If the meeting place was changed at the last minute, there would likely be a digital trail exposing it. Such a change would have required at least one phone call between the guardian and Veronica to nail down the new location. It's likely the children would have overheard such a call and would later reveal it in a police interview. It's also possible Jilian would have mentioned it in a call to her husband. To change the location once the women were en route would have been too risky.

This is why I think the custody exchange at Four Corners was legit.
Other things I think:
The perp/s had full knowledge of the custody exchange....they knew place and time.
They knew what type of car Veronica drove.
They knew the typical route she took.
They knew who was in the car.
Their goal was to make sure Veronica not only missed the custody exchange at Four Corners.
Their goal was to make sure she would never get to court for the upcoming custody hearing.

And one would think that if the order was to meet at Four Corners that VB would not have wanted to violate that order

 

[Cedars]

Just curious why locals are afraid of being next? Speak out about what? Has OBI given any cautionary statements about the public's safety?

For instance in the Rachel Morin murder case, the Sheriff issued a public safety warning. I've seen nothing like that in this case?

Who are locals afraid of?

IMO, they're 'afraid' of appearing on national TV, gossiping about other people in their community, because they know it's none of their business, and not their place to tell the world about local issues. They're 'afraid' of the disapproval they'll receive, the suspicion that they did it for money or self-aggrandizement, and that no one will trust them with local gossip, in the future.

And perhaps, with defamation lawsuits, or more direct retribution if they speculate/badmouth people.

JMO

 

[Universecalling]

My main objection is to the idea of somehow forcing the women to drive a fair distance down a gravel side road. ETA: and then somehow getting them to stop, and not just keep driving.

I've never heard of a crime being committed that way, by someone in another vehicle.

We see it in multiple-car police chases in movies, but the police are just trying to get the vehicle to stop, not funnel the car somewhere specific.

Someone in a moving car has a lot of options, including doing a u-turn, coming to a stop on the highway and calling for help, and so on.

Also, it's so uncertain whether another vehicle might come along while this aggressive behaviour was happening.

In a current alleged 'murder over custody' case, something was left on a road the victim had to travel, so he got out to move it, and was shot. But it was a very quiet road, not a highway.

I wonder whether someone could have been waiting on the highway and waved them down, then just leaned in and shot them, quickly moving the car. Such a risk of being seen, tho.

JMO

I have my thoughts on who, and I hope we all get to talk about it soon.
Especially because that would mean families of these two mothers might be closer to getting some answers.

 

[NDreu]

Agree. I can't remember a case where the only information given by LE is "foul play suspected" - for days, and nothing else. It's also the only time I can remember where we didn't see public outcries, prayer vigils, candlelight services, public pleas from family and friends. Everything about this is really weird.

I agree that what we have seen is a very odd public response from LE. But, I think we have seen an odd response from the OK Press as well as their coverage has been almost perfunctory with little in the way of direct presence in the Cimarron/Texas County region or investment in research imo.

Is this response from the local Press simply because what happened to VB and JK is just another day in this Panhandle region where folks go 'missing' and murders are rarely solved? Are locals afraid to speak out to LE or the Press because in this small places everyone knows everyone and also knows their business and so they mind their own business while perhaps thinking that people taking the law into their own hands is simply how things are done in their neck of the woods? Or, is the fear of the locals simply that they are afraid that they "will be next'? Hard to say because nobody is really speaking but I sense the fact that people in the area are afraid and concerned for themselves for some reason.

Its hard to believe that the women have been gone for 12 days with no visible public searching. Only thing I can gather from that is that perhaps to LE they aren't missing. How else to not have the family and friends of the two women NOT screaming from rooftops to find their loved one?

In many respects it seems that the situation from the view of the public is that there is possibly something significant going on outside our view with LE and the missing women and perhaps other parties. Combine this possibility with the lack of visible searching or boots on the ground or even a posted image by LE of the vehicle the women were driving and the public announcement of the FBI assistance, and it might make it possible to argue that this seems more like a hostage negotiation scenario than any of the other possibilities perhaps. Or, LE could have clear evidence that the ladies are tragically deceased and simply working to find their remains?

Its hard to know what to think as I've not seen a case like this one before where two people are taken from their car and LE makes no attempt to engage the public with requests for assistance. <modsnip - Accusations against people not named POI by LE>

I pray the women are safe but after nearly 12 days its hard to fathom how this could be possible.

MOO

 

[NDreu]

The NewsNation reporter states that the police in this county have only solved 1/3 of the homicides in Texas County, OK in the past six years.

Laura Ingle goes on to report that locals do not want to be on camera.

There is footage of the area where the women's vehicle was found abandoned.

The two you tubers on the ground that were interviewed by News Nation yesterday have imo been amazing to watch and the reason they said they went was because they were worried that nobody was covering the story and they felt the women deserved to be found and answers provided to the families. These two you tubers imo did accomplish their mission of giving a voice to the missing victims and they also raised the visibility of this case too imo. Citizen journalism at its best imo so kudos to them!

Sad though that no member of the local Press or Media felt as strongly as the two youtubers and that it took an outside news agency like News Nation to bring reporters from far away from OK to cover the story. Given the missing and murder stats in the local region I would have thought that the local Press would jump on the story. But, this hasn't proven to be the case so far.

We haven't seen a reward offered up for information which is also a bit curious imo. OK iirc has more billionaires per capita than many states in the US. Not one has stepped up to offer up a reward in this tragic case and its been business as usual in the cattle, oil and gas, retail etc. businesses for them.

We also haven't seen the powerful religious sectors present in OK and KS step up visibly to request the assistance of the public in the search or request that people cooperate and assist LE efforts. Of all the powerful local forces, I have to say it was the silence of the religious leaders that has surprised me the most as in other missing cases they can be a powerful source of support, motivation and guidance. But, other than some small local prayer vigils imo its been crickets from the larger religious community in which both the missing victims were quite active.

I hope we eventually find out why two people going missing while doing a custody pickup isn't major news in OK or the Panhandle?

MOO

 

[NDreu]

This is a silly question, but I’ll ask anyway.
If this was a hired hit, done by one of those highly skilled professionals…
Would they bother w the bodies?
I’m thinking they wouldn’t because people like that carry out payment plans and operations seldom leaving a trace. And if you have confidence you’ll never be found, why take a additional risk?

Some folks still believe 'no body no crime'.

I haven't had a chance to research where OK law is on prosecuting murder without a body. States differ somewhat in this regard imo. But, in many states murder has been successfully prosecuted by the State without the bodies of the victims so perhaps the perps behind this tragic case didn't get the memo? IDK.

The other thing that seems to keep running through my mind on this case is that the ambush and removal of the victims was handled with an almost military like precision in a very short time frame based on the limited information we have available imo. I do wonder if this could mean this was a 'hired hit' done by folk/s with prior military training and not the usual bumbling stupid criminal that eventually gets caught?

MOO.

 

[NDreu]

Just curious why locals are afraid of being next? Speak out about what? Has OBI given any cautionary statements about the public's safety?

For instance in the Rachel Morin murder case, the Sheriff issued a public safety warning. I've seen nothing like that in this case?

Who are locals afraid of?

Good question!

Perhaps we will eventually learn more that could explain the crickets in this tragic case.

Moo

 

[Gae]

In a recent NN interview, a private investigator did reference the grandfather and some of his charges of drugs and strangulation, which are in public record. Although I don't love NN, it seems to be considered MSM here and I believe this news clip would open the door to discussing the grandfather's criminal history.

Interesting. Thank you for posting this. So bio father's father has a criminal record that includes drugs and strangulation. Experts in the field of DV often claim that those who strangle are -
"According to Joni E. Johnston, Psy. D, “Batterers who strangle their victim are more likely to engage in other extreme acts of violence; it’s a message that there are no limits to which he won’t go. The odds are, he’s willing to kill,” she writes in Psychology Today."
Strangulation: The Red Flag Of Domestic Violence That We Never Discuss

 

[OptimusLime]

I'm just curious and can't seem to find it anywhere, and I'm not sure if it's been posted here- who was the last person to see them alive?

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Interesting question imo. Very interesting.

Bio father's father divorced bio father mother I guess is the most that can be said now about this topic as News Nation video reported briefly the other day to say that bio dad's parents are divorced.

MOO

There are plenty of public documents.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I hate the waiting game, don't you? Yet it always seems to come down to one.
Meanwhile, some wise words from the master himself:
'Crime is common. Logic is rare.
Therefore it is upon the logic rather than the crime that you should dwell.'
~S. Holmes

yes... the waiting.
BUT consider the other recent notorious custody related cases............ tooks months and months.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Right now News Nation are the only news organization willing to invest to put boots on the ground locally and chase the story and so I have to give them credit for sticking with the story and also promoting it with their other on air personalities.

All the other major online and onair news organizations seem to just be 'reposting' News Nation imo and haven't invested to put boots on the ground in OK that I can see.

FWIW News Nation is only game in town right now on this story that is considered 'MSM'.

Some legal analysts on youtube are doing some solid work on the story but its surprising to not see the major OK daily papers investing in following the story. I think the Oklahoman has done just a single article on the story. The OK local on air stations don't seem to be investing in boots on the ground type local reporting but are giving air time to follow up type stories. National 'news' organizations are giving the story some air time on morning shows and evening broadcasts.

Citizen journalists who have been local on this story since Day 2 imo have been the real stars of this story but sadly their commentary isn't permitted here.

MOO

I really appreciate your assessment here.
I do believe others are prepared to pounce, but at least we do have them there.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Agree. I can't remember a case where the only information given by LE is "foul play suspected" - for days, and nothing else. It's also the only time I can remember where we didn't see public outcries, prayer vigils, candlelight services, public pleas from family and friends. Everything about this is really weird.

There is too much fear. Couple that with a strict gag order to all those close to the case.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

This is a silly question, but I’ll ask anyway.
If this was a hired hit, done by one of those highly skilled professionals…
Would they bother w the bodies?
I’m thinking they wouldn’t because people like that carry out payment plans and operations seldom leaving a trace. And if you have confidence you’ll never be found, why take a additional risk?

I have thought about this as well.
BUT I feel that those that arranged the hit would demand bodies to be disposed of.... so the "no body" would limit LE significantly.