One Killer or More?

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Wow, I'm glad I posted to this again! Thank you for the update, I was beginning to take the odometer thing for fact. Also helpful to know that the distances traveled were not out of the norm for the victims.

Jersey Girl - I wonder how common that is, to keep a john journal. Do we know if any existed for Costello or the others? Do we know of any victims who boasted of having made a lot off of "some guy?" If there was, I could easily see the contents being withheld by LE. On the other hand, what SK's were ever worried about what might be in a journal?

I don't think these girls make record of all their clients in the journals. More like "bad dates" or overly-generous clients which LE are hoping will lead back to LISK.

It's hard to keep track of the phones because most working girls if working independently have at least 2 phones- 1 personal and 1+ for work. Many girls have more than 1 work phone to spam craigslist with more ads and to advertise under multiple names. Likewise LISK may operate the same way- he uses a different phone number for every "project" he has.

If the LISK is a cheap wad he may just switch sim cards into just one phone. I'm sure the phone carriers have cross-referenced to see if a single phone(imei) was used with multiple sims(numbers) to call each of the escorts(if this is possible that is). I don't think we can realistically expect him to have used just one number all along.

*Many johns use "pooner phones"(untraceable) to conceal their activities from their spouses
 
Thanks, that is the first time I have seen that comment. i knew that she usually had men come to her house and that she and her sister went to "parties" to work but I hadn't read about her being left, beaten on the Southern State Pkwy. I did hear about Johns complaining, on either BP or UG, about her roommates and a possible scam where Johns paid but did not receive and one supposed incidence where a john ran out of the house naked after being chased by a guy with a bat.

Think I was reading the same thing you were where her and her sister were entertaining johns at their home\incall and her pimp-roommate DS barging into the room with a bat to rob the clients. It's a sad case of desperate people doing desperate things just to get their next fix and although DS vehemently denies being Costello's pimp, he served as protection and lived off the proceeds of her work. IIRC a lot of johns on that one board wanted retribution.
 
Am I the only member who doesn't buy into the convenient assumption that every single one of these bodies is the work of just one serial killer?
 
I believe there are different killers - 1 for the Gilgo 4 and I still believe Gilbert was killed by that same killer, 1 for the Manorville victims, 1 for the Fire Island legs victim, and possibly another for the mom & toddler victims.
 
Am I the only member who doesn't buy into the convenient assumption that every single one of these bodies is the work of just one serial killer?
No you are not the only person. My personal belief is that the Ocean Parkway & Manorville bodies are the work of 2-4 killers.

The reason why the cops have from time to time dropped hints of only one killer is so they can pin it all on one person and sweep it under the rug. Their are entire commands within the SCPD that do little more than sit around and sleep an goof off (ie: the MacArthur Airport unit, the Marine Bureau in the winter months, etc).
 
How can anyone say SG is not related to the others? How could anyone know that unless they knew who the killer is?

SG was a working girl. The other four gals were also working gals. They all got there by answering a Craig's List type advertisement. THE EVIDENCE IS OVERWHELMING, at least to this point that they ARE connected. That should stand as a premise until such time it has been absolutely proven otherwise.
 
How can anyone say SG is not related to the others? How could anyone know that unless they knew who the killer is?

SG was a working girl. The other four gals were also working gals. They all got there by answering a Craig's List type advertisement. THE EVIDENCE IS OVERWHELMING, at least to this point that they ARE connected. That should stand as a premise until such time it has been absolutely proven otherwise.

The focus of this particular discussion is not whether or not SG is a victim. Even if we say her death is related to the GB4, it still leaves the possibility that there as many as five killers out there.
 
I took a step back from this case for a few weeks in an attempt to return with a clear mind and a fresh set of eyes this morning. The very first thing that is obvious to me now is that there does not exist a single shred of evidence to support the single serial killer theory.

If you think that it is not possible for multiple, unrelated killers to use the same dumping grounds... well think again. This is more common than you may realize. A perfect local example is Pelham Bay Park. You can read here all about how multiple killers used that location as a dumping ground for years.

Another thing that was obvious to me is that there is absolutely no proof that the person or people who discarded the remains is the same person who killed them. We make this assumption because it is probably likely that the killer(s) would work alone yet we truly have no proof. Therefore, it has not been ruled-out that there may be multiple killers yet maybe only one or two "disposers".

So with my new fresh of eyes, I can tell you what I do see and what I do not see in regards to the actual victims.

Let's first start with the obvious;

KILLER #1 The Original GB4
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The burlap suggests that these four woman were most likely killed and dumped along Ocean Parkway by the same killer. It is impossible to determine whether or not the killer and the person who did the dumping are one in the same (since the woman were murdered elsewhere). Yet most people assume that it's all the work of one person. One thing is sure, other than the location of where the bodies were found, there is nothing about the GB4's cases that are at all similar to the other cases. They are extremely unique.

Now the next obvious...

KILLER #2 The Manorville Butcher
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It's safe to assume that JT is the victim of the same killer as Jane Doe #6. Both had remains found both in Manorville and in Gilgo. There were remains of two men found in the same set of woods in Manorville yet the police fail to mention those UID victims in relation to this case. This is most likely because Manorville is another known dumping ground that has been used by multiple killers throughout the years (like Gilgo & Pelham Bay Park). If you do not accept that Manorville is another one of those universal dumping grounds then how can you explain the lack of attention the two male victims received (and how they have not been linked to this case?). There is no indication that the two Manorville cases are in any way linked to any of the other cases.

Now this is where it starts to get complicated;

KILLER #3 Jane Doe Bag of Bones & her Non-Caucasian 16 to 32 month daughter
We know for sure that the Jane Doe bag of bones found just East of Zach's Bay along the dirt utility road is related to the non-Caucasian toddler found near Gilgo. What we do not know is 1) whether or not the toddler was murdered or if she dies of natural causes and 2) whether or not the person who killed the toddler's mother also killed the toddler. For all we know, the mother could have been responsible for the toddler's death (accidental or intentional) and the toddler's father could have killed the toddler's mother out of rage for what she had let happen. We may never know the answer to this mystery. Also, since they were able to determine that the toddler is non-Caucasian, why haven't the police released info on whether or not they were able to determine if the mother was non-Caucasian too? Is this just assumed? Nothing about this case shows any signs of being related to the others.

KILLER #4 Davis Park 1996 Legs with Scars Woman
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They found her legs in a plastic bag washed up on the beach at Davis Park on Fire Island in 1996. During the search near Jones Beach the Nassau County PD found her skull. It was there so long that it was reported that a small tree or a tree's roots was growing out of it. Where the heck is the rest of her remains? Unlike the other bodies, her skull was found far from the roadside in the middle of a nature preserve where many people go hiking. Her case is years apart from all of the others too. Nothing about her case shows any sign of being related to the others.

Killer #5 The Cross-Dressing Asian Man
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The only male victim. His cause of death was determined to be much different than any of the other victims (and described as "brutal"). His wearing woman's clothing makes everyone assume that he was a cross-dresser (was he the only victim who was clothed too??). His rotted missing teeth have added to everyone's imagination (some think he could have been a crack user). The truth is, we don't know what caused him to lose some of his teeth just like we do not know if he was wearing woman's clothing by choice or if his body was dressed that way by the killer before or after his death. Dormer went as far as to suggest that this man was most likely a gay prostitute. It's all speculation (and poor judgement in my opinion) to make these assumptions without a shred of evidence. Once again, we have a case with absolutely zero evidence that links him to any of the other cases.

Killer #6 if you do not buy the "drowning theory"
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I know it's tough to accept that there isn't a shred of evidence that links SG's case to any of the others. I also know that it's tough to accept the theory that SG drowned. If SG was indeed murdered, then most likely we have a local OB resident or her driver MP to blame. Either way, there is not a single piece of evidence to link SG's death to any of the others. So if SG was murdered, we then most likely have a sixth killer. Once again, not a single shred of evidence to link SG's death to the others.

All of this leaves us with more questions than answers;

Is Killer #1 through 5 all the same killer who has some how "evolved" over time and SG died accidentally as Dormer attempted to educate/enlighten us? (this is SCPD's last official theory)

Is Killer #2, 3 & 4 all the same killer who chose to dismember his victims?

Does that make it three killers by leaving Killer #1 & 5 as the same killer and #6 being the third?

Of course, all of this speculation is assuming that whoever dumped the bodies also killed them. If we make this assumption then we can conclude that there are no more than six killers. If we cannot make this assumption then there could be as many as eleven.

If there are six killers, then technically speaking we have actually two serial killers (Killer #1 & Killer #2) and both of them are targeting prostitutes. This plays back into my theory how this case is going to go cold again very quickly. The Manorville butcher case (killer #2) continues to be a cold case because nobody seems to care about the two victims to put any pressure on the investigators to solve the cases. The GB4 case will most likely follow in the same footsteps as the AC serial killer case where time just flies by with no new leads. Chances are that (like AC) the killer came to town, killed the four girls and moved on to another town where he probably is doing the same. With no more bodies showing up and no more prostitutes missing from the Long Island area the pressure is off of the investigators because the public doesn't feel threatened.

So with my clear fresh set of eyes, the only thing that is obvious when looking at this case is that there is absolutely no evidence to support the one serial killer theory. Yes, serial killers do evolve. And yes, there have been some remarkably talented serial killers who utilized multiple MO's in order to confuse law enforcement.

But until some evidence actually links two or more of the six killers, the investigators need to set the record straight and dismiss Dormer's one-shoe-fits-all fantasy theory. I've said this before and I'll say it again; other than identifying the identity of some of the victims, giving us composite drawings of what the UID victims might have look like and ruling out potential suspects like CPH, JB & MP, the investigators have made absolutely no progress in this case. They are no closer to finding the killers than they were when the legs washed up on Davis Park Beach or when they found parts of the Manorville victims.

ZERO PROGRESS.

I fully subscribe to your theory. 100% it explains why LE cannot arrest one person for all of these murders. There is little doubt in my mind that the young child and her mother are unrelated to the other victims. Manorville seems to be unrelated to the GB4 too.

Same thing took place in the Bronx and in New Jersey -there were desolate areas that killers independently figured out on their own would make easy/good places to ditch some bodies without being detected. Little did each killer realize that other killers came to the same conclusion and were using the same areas to dispose of their victims.

Send a task force to search the entire stretch of woods along the Southern State Parkway (from the Cross Island Parkway to where it ends at Heckscher state park) and I bet they would find no less than three unrelated bodies.

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You are making the presumption that these women murdered as well. It could easily be a situation where they died inconveniently and the bodies had to be gotten rid of. In that scenario a "fixer" may been dumping in GB, but no murders.

An example of an "inconvenient" death: A prostitute goes to a client's house, does drugs and ODs. Now there is a problem that has to be fixed, they can hardly just call in local LE to take the body away, so they have to call someone else instead. The clients would not know anyone like that, but the driver/pimps might well.
 
You are making the presumption that these women murdered as well. It could easily be a situation where they died inconveniently and the bodies had to be gotten rid of. In that scenario a "fixer" may been dumping in GB, but no murders.

An example of an "inconvenient" death: A prostitute goes to a client's house, does drugs and ODs. Now there is a problem that has to be fixed, they can hardly just call in local LE to take the body away, so they have to call someone else instead. The clients would not know anyone like that, but the driver/pimps might well.

I dont believe a death by over dose would be followed by a series of sadistic phone calls to the younger sister of MB. Besides the ME already ruled the death to be a homicide by strangulation.
 
If the killer(s) of the GB4 and SG are not the same person they are surely connected to each other and someone knows why these gals were killed and dumped in the same location. You folks really think this is a COINCIDENCE?'
 
If the killer(s) of the GB4 and SG are not the same person they are surely connected to each other and someone knows why these gals were killed and dumped in the same location. You folks really think this is a COINCIDENCE?'

whether any WS'er agrees or disagrees, it's at the very least a valid double-assumption to hold
 
You are making the presumption that these women murdered as well. It could easily be a situation where they died inconveniently and the bodies had to be gotten rid of. In that scenario a "fixer" may been dumping in GB, but no murders.

An example of an "inconvenient" death: A prostitute goes to a client's house, does drugs and ODs. Now there is a problem that has to be fixed, they can hardly just call in local LE to take the body away, so they have to call someone else instead. The clients would not know anyone like that, but the driver/pimps might well.

Valid point taken.

100% I agree with you. Point you are making is that there could be as many as six people who have disposed of bodies along Ocean Parkway but not all of the bodies might be murder victims.
 
Let me restate what has been said before regarding how the multiple killers theory is the least popular to gain any sort of momentum with the press or the public because it makes the case all the more complicated. Society likes to package & bundle its problems together. It is much more convenient to assume there is just one killer out there responsible for all of those deaths and that he/she only targets prostitutes.

Simple fact remains that the stretch of road along Ocean Parkway was a perfect area to dispose of human remains without being detected. It was one of the few places in close proximity to the major populations of Queens, Brooklyn, Nassau County & Western Suffolk County where a person can drive to and in less than a minute get out of their car and dispose of human remains without another soul detecting their actions. It is not a coincidence (nor should it be any surprise) that more than one person figured out this (so very obvious) knowledge.

It also is so obvious that (whether they were fishermen or not) those disposing of the bodies would have made themselves appear as fishermen traveling to/from either Captree boat basin (at the end of Ocean Parkway) or any of the Ocean Beaches along Ocean Parkway or Robert Moses State park. Load a smelly pickup truck or van up with fishing equipment, coolers and lots of dead fish for bait and if by chance the perp is pulled over (or discovered on the side of the road) the most obvious assumption would be that he/she belonged on that stretch of road at 4am in the morning (because who else would anyone expect to see driving around that area at that time of the day?).... the perfect cover.
 
PS 149 The ME already ruled on a cause of death for the GB4. Youve been away for awhile. You must of forgotten.
 
A "fixer"...Is this a know thing or person? Never heard of that term before.
 
The fixer thing....
I don't know. Would a fixer make those phone calls?
I imagine a fixer as an all business type not looking to get caught. Phone calls get you caught.
 
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. ..and all these murders are conected one way or another. I was able to link all the bodies found. They are all linked together like a chain.
 
Let me restate what has been said before regarding how the multiple killers theory is the least popular to gain any sort of momentum with the press or the public because it makes the case all the more complicated. Society likes to package & bundle its problems together. It is much more convenient to assume there is just one killer out there responsible for all of those deaths and that he/she only targets prostitutes.

Simple fact remains that the stretch of road along Ocean Parkway was a perfect area tit dispose of human remains without being detected. It was one of the few places in close proximity to the major populations of Queens, Brooklyn, Nassau County & Western Suffolk County where a person can drive to and in less than a minute get out of their car and dispose of human remains without another soul detecting their actions. It is not a coincidence (nor should it be any surprise) that more than one person figured out this (so very obvious) knowledge.

It also is so obvious that (whether they were fishermen or not) those disposing of the bodies would have made themselves appear as fishermen traveling to/from either Captree boat
basin (at the end of Ocean Parkway) or any of the Ocean Beaches along Ocean Parkway or Robert Moses State park. Load a smelly pickup truck or van up with fishing equipment, coolers and lots of dead fish for bait and if by chance the perp is pulled over (or discovered on the side of the road) the most obvious assumption would be that he/she belonged on that stretch of road at 4am in the morning (because who else would anyone expect to see driving around that area at that time of the day?).... the perfect cover.

For me it isn't that its convenient to believe that there is only one killer its just that when you think about it they really are all conected.
In 96 two legs wrapped in a garbage bag found on Fire Island.
Then in 2011 they found the skull that belonged to those legs in nassau county very close to who some believe is the mother of the toddler found....so chances are same killer. Then if JD is the mother of the toddler then wouldn't that make the killer of that toddler the same killer of the asian man and the other jane doe?
And those bodies were found in a cluster and in that cluster remains were found. Those remains belonged to the torso that was found in 00 in manorville. So that's more then likly the same killer of who killed JT because her body was found around the same area as the first torso. JT was last seen at port authority whitch isn't that the same place MBB was last seen? And MBB was deff killed by the same guy who killed MB MW ALC.
Correct me please if I am wrong about where some of these bodies were found. It does all get a bit confusing.
 

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