One Killer or More?

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For me it isn't that its convenient to believe that there is only one killer its just that when you think about it they really are all conected.
In 96 two legs wrapped in a garbage bag found on Fire Island.
Then in 2011 they found the skull that belonged to those legs in nassau county very close to who some believe is the mother of the toddler found....so chances are same killer. Then if JD is the mother of the toddler then wouldn't that make the killer of that toddler the same killer of the asian man and the other jane doe?
And those bodies were found in a cluster and in that cluster remains were found. Those remains belonged to the torso that was found in 00 in manorville. So that's more then likly the same killer of who killed JT because her body was found around the same area as the first torso. JT was last seen at port authority whitch isn't that the same place MBB was last seen? And MBB was deff killed by the same guy who killed MB MW ALC.
Correct me please if I am wrong about where some of these bodies were found. It does all get a bit confusing.

I see what you are saying and agree with this analysis of placement but it does not really link the 4 in burlap. So by only using your astute method you connect all of the ones that were dismembered but the 4 in Gilgo still stand a chance of being another killer. Then add that they weren't dismembered and...

To me it looks like 2 different killers.
 
...I distinctly remember reading about a "new search" for SG based on "a tip" that she was "probably dead and dumped along a road". I remember thinking then that the SK had contacted LE. I think LE has info we are not privy to... Who else would have left the "new" info that led to the discovery of SG's body? I also do not believe SG drowned.



I, too, remember reading & hearing about "new search" based on "tip". Was glued to the tv breaking news. I've searched but unable to find this. I recall when the search team was down OP & then a sudden about face, back to OB. At that time, the news reported a sudden change in search area & surmised a tip redirected the search to exactly where SMG's items were found & her remains. Do you have any articles or news clips that support this?
 
I, too, remember reading & hearing about "new search" based on "tip". Was glued to the tv breaking news. I've searched but unable to find this. I recall when the search team was down OP & then a sudden about face, back to OB. At that time, the news reported a sudden change in search area & surmised a tip redirected the search to exactly where SMG's items were found & her remains. Do you have any articles or news clips that support this?

Either the "tip" was from something they discovered from the aerial footage they took months earlier, or maybe from the SK. It's an important distinction. I would think that from a profiler's point of view it is highly significant whether the LISK was killing these girls as a private, personal fantasy or if he wanted some sort of notoriety. Also, I suppose it would settle the argument as to whether SG was murdered or simply wandered into the marsh and died.
 
I see what you are saying and agree with this analysis of placement but it does not really link the 4 in burlap. So by only using your astute method you connect all of the ones that were dismembered but the 4 in Gilgo still stand a chance of being another killer. Then add that they weren't dismembered and...

To me it looks like 2 different killers.

Your right the burlap does make it more likely that its two different killers. But there were some dismembered bodies mixed in the area so close to some of the others. Wouldnt be the first time a serial killer has changed his mo...but I agree there is probably at least two killerss.
 
Either the "tip" was from something they discovered from the aerial footage they took months earlier, or maybe from the SK. It's an important distinction. I would think that from a profiler's point of view it is highly significant whether the LISK was killing these girls as a private, personal fantasy or if he wanted some sort of notoriety. Also, I suppose it would settle the argument as to whether SG was murdered or simply wandered into the marsh and died.


I've often wondered what they odds would be if the sk him self called and left a tip. I always thought it was odd they randomly brought a dog out to GB area for a routine training exercise. Idk kinda makes me wonder. I bet there are so many things we all don't know.
 
I kind of think that if a person was last seen running in a certain direction that would be the first direction the police would look,,,,,,,,,that is if they were really looking. But, then again, we have other conflicts. We have a woman seen running and screaming they are going to kill me. We then have a 23 min 911 tape that will not be released. We are supposed to believe SG was on the phone with 911 and she gave no indication her life was in danger just because Det.Stephan said he heard the tape and wrote a letter to Newsday just because he said that.
 
We now have SCPD's Top Cop who has now been accused and substantiated in a SCPD IAB report of having committing oral sex on a much traveled prostitute while in his police car. While making no opinion about oral sex, I think you can understand that performing oral sex on a street walking prostitute is quite another matter.

There is a rumor going around that the same thing happened in Brooklyn just about the same time the gals were murdered. That Spota called Hynes and all was forgotten.

Maybe the gals left their cell phones behind because they felt safe. I have to believe if they were going to get into a police car there would have been some measure of security.

TRUST me folks if the gals were working out of the Holiday Inn this misfit would know it. That is his specialty - finding working girls.
 
I kind of think that if a person was last seen running in a certain direction that would be the first direction the police would look,,,,,,,,,that is if they were really looking. But, then again, we have other conflicts. We have a woman seen running and screaming they are going to kill me. We then have a 23 min 911 tape that will not be released. We are supposed to believe SG was on the phone with 911 and she gave no indication her life was in danger just because Det.Stephan said he heard the tape and wrote a letter to Newsday just because he said that.

I was under the impression that SCPD NEVER released 911 calls as a matter of principle. That's what I've heard, at least.

Does anybody have hard evidence as to whether or not this is the case? Has SCPD released ANY 911 calls in the past? If so, did they institute a moratorium on doing so at some point?
 
As for the 'tip' that lead to SG's location, I seem to think it came from someone active in these boards that had a hunch she would be found in that area. Could be wrong but I always felt that.
 
I kind of think that if a person was last seen running in a certain direction that would be the first direction the police would look,,,,,,,,,that is if they were really looking. But, then again, we have other conflicts. We have a woman seen running and screaming they are going to kill me. We then have a 23 min 911 tape that will not be released. We are supposed to believe SG was on the phone with 911 and she gave no indication her life was in danger just because Det.Stephan said he heard the tape and wrote a letter to Newsday just because he said that.



Let's not forget Det. Varrone, in his interview on the latest 48 Hours special on the case, where he says he heard the 911 recording & indicated she was fearful.
 
As for the 'tip' that lead to SG's location, I seem to think it came from someone active in these boards that had a hunch she would be found in that area. Could be wrong but I always felt that.

Fluke said she was there all over the boards for months.
 
As for the 'tip' that lead to SG's location, I seem to think it came from someone active in these boards that had a hunch she would be found in that area. Could be wrong but I always felt that.

One hell of a hunch, imo. :escape:
 
As for the 'tip' that lead to SG's location, I seem to think it came from someone active in these boards that had a hunch she would be found in that area. Could be wrong but I always felt that.

It's probably the most logical (IMO) place for her to have been if she "ran into the marsh" as the police were adamant about before her body was found. It's like a straight shot from the road JB lived. (Although, I don't personally buy the drowning story or any accidental death of any kind.)
 
Yes,she drowned. Right after she came from manhattan, and slipped,fell and landed vagina first onto brewers penis by accident and then brewer wished her the best on TV when the news tried to get a quote from him. If he really cared about her he would have looked for her that night. All lies. The woman (SG) deserves a little more effort than "drowned in 4 inches of water".
 
I took a step back from this case for a few weeks in an attempt to return with a clear mind and a fresh set of eyes this morning. The very first thing that is obvious to me now is that there does not exist a single shred of evidence to support the single serial killer theory.

If you think that it is not possible for multiple, unrelated killers to use the same dumping grounds... well think again. This is more common than you may realize. A perfect local example is Pelham Bay Park. You can read here all about how multiple killers used that location as a dumping ground for years.

Another thing that was obvious to me is that there is absolutely no proof that the person or people who discarded the remains is the same person who killed them. We make this assumption because it is probably likely that the killer(s) would work alone yet we truly have no proof. Therefore, it has not been ruled-out that there may be multiple killers yet maybe only one or two "disposers".

So with my new fresh of eyes, I can tell you what I do see and what I do not see in regards to the actual victims.

Let's first start with the obvious;

KILLER #1 The Original GB4
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The burlap suggests that these four woman were most likely killed and dumped along Ocean Parkway by the same killer. It is impossible to determine whether or not the killer and the person who did the dumping are one in the same (since the woman were murdered elsewhere). Yet most people assume that it's all the work of one person. One thing is sure, other than the location of where the bodies were found, there is nothing about the GB4's cases that are at all similar to the other cases. They are extremely unique.

Now the next obvious...

KILLER #2 The Manorville Butcher
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It's safe to assume that JT is the victim of the same killer as Jane Doe #6. Both had remains found both in Manorville and in Gilgo. There were remains of two men found in the same set of woods in Manorville yet the police fail to mention those UID victims in relation to this case. This is most likely because Manorville is another known dumping ground that has been used by multiple killers throughout the years (like Gilgo & Pelham Bay Park). If you do not accept that Manorville is another one of those universal dumping grounds then how can you explain the lack of attention the two male victims received (and how they have not been linked to this case?). There is no indication that the two Manorville cases are in any way linked to any of the other cases.

Now this is where it starts to get complicated;

KILLER #3 Jane Doe Bag of Bones & her Non-Caucasian 16 to 32 month daughter
We know for sure that the Jane Doe bag of bones found just East of Zach's Bay along the dirt utility road is related to the non-Caucasian toddler found near Gilgo. What we do not know is 1) whether or not the toddler was murdered or if she dies of natural causes and 2) whether or not the person who killed the toddler's mother also killed the toddler. For all we know, the mother could have been responsible for the toddler's death (accidental or intentional) and the toddler's father could have killed the toddler's mother out of rage for what she had let happen. We may never know the answer to this mystery. Also, since they were able to determine that the toddler is non-Caucasian, why haven't the police released info on whether or not they were able to determine if the mother was non-Caucasian too? Is this just assumed? Nothing about this case shows any signs of being related to the others.

KILLER #4 Davis Park 1996 Legs with Scars Woman
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They found her legs in a plastic bag washed up on the beach at Davis Park on Fire Island in 1996. During the search near Jones Beach the Nassau County PD found her skull. It was there so long that it was reported that a small tree or a tree's roots was growing out of it. Where the heck is the rest of her remains? Unlike the other bodies, her skull was found far from the roadside in the middle of a nature preserve where many people go hiking. Her case is years apart from all of the others too. Nothing about her case shows any sign of being related to the others.

Killer #5 The Cross-Dressing Asian Man
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The only male victim. His cause of death was determined to be much different than any of the other victims (and described as "brutal"). His wearing woman's clothing makes everyone assume that he was a cross-dresser (was he the only victim who was clothed too??). His rotted missing teeth have added to everyone's imagination (some think he could have been a crack user). The truth is, we don't know what caused him to lose some of his teeth just like we do not know if he was wearing woman's clothing by choice or if his body was dressed that way by the killer before or after his death. Dormer went as far as to suggest that this man was most likely a gay prostitute. It's all speculation (and poor judgement in my opinion) to make these assumptions without a shred of evidence. Once again, we have a case with absolutely zero evidence that links him to any of the other cases.

Killer #6 if you do not buy the "drowning theory"
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I know it's tough to accept that there isn't a shred of evidence that links SG's case to any of the others. I also know that it's tough to accept the theory that SG drowned. If SG was indeed murdered, then most likely we have a local OB resident or her driver MP to blame. Either way, there is not a single piece of evidence to link SG's death to any of the others. So if SG was murdered, we then most likely have a sixth killer. Once again, not a single shred of evidence to link SG's death to the others.

All of this leaves us with more questions than answers;

Is Killer #1 through 5 all the same killer who has some how "evolved" over time and SG died accidentally as Dormer attempted to educate/enlighten us? (this is SCPD's last official theory)

Is Killer #2, 3 & 4 all the same killer who chose to dismember his victims?

Does that make it three killers by leaving Killer #1 & 5 as the same killer and #6 being the third?

Of course, all of this speculation is assuming that whoever dumped the bodies also killed them. If we make this assumption then we can conclude that there are no more than six killers. If we cannot make this assumption then there could be as many as eleven.

If there are six killers, then technically speaking we have actually two serial killers (Killer #1 & Killer #2) and both of them are targeting prostitutes. This plays back into my theory how this case is going to go cold again very quickly. The Manorville butcher case (killer #2) continues to be a cold case because nobody seems to care about the two victims to put any pressure on the investigators to solve the cases. The GB4 case will most likely follow in the same footsteps as the AC serial killer case where time just flies by with no new leads. Chances are that (like AC) the killer came to town, killed the four girls and moved on to another town where he probably is doing the same. With no more bodies showing up and no more prostitutes missing from the Long Island area the pressure is off of the investigators because the public doesn't feel threatened.

So with my clear fresh set of eyes, the only thing that is obvious when looking at this case is that there is absolutely no evidence to support the one serial killer theory. Yes, serial killers do evolve. And yes, there have been some remarkably talented serial killers who utilized multiple MO's in order to confuse law enforcement.

But until some evidence actually links two or more of the six killers, the investigators need to set the record straight and dismiss Dormer's one-shoe-fits-all fantasy theory. I've said this before and I'll say it again; other than identifying the identity of some of the victims, giving us composite drawings of what the UID victims might have look like and ruling out potential suspects like CPH, JB & MP, the investigators have made absolutely no progress in this case. They are no closer to finding the killers than they were when the legs washed up on Davis Park Beach or when they found parts of the Manorville victims.

ZERO PROGRESS.

I am interested in discussing in greater detail the adult victim of killer #3 (toddler victim's mother who was found as a bag of bones).

Was she a bag of bones when she was discarded or was she a body (or body parts) discarded in a bag?

Did they ever release this info?

Also, since this victim was found in Nassau County, what has that County PD accomplished in terms of investigating her death?
 
I am interested in discussing in greater detail the adult victim of killer #3 (toddler victim's mother who was found as a bag of bones).

Was she a bag of bones when she was discarded or was she a body (or body parts) discarded in a bag?

Did they ever release this info?

Also, since this victim was found in Nassau County, what has that County PD accomplished in terms of investigating her death?

The mother of the child victim has yet to be even entered into NamUs. I have been told by my contact at NamUs that she was in direct talks with the medical examiner to try to get them to enter this woman into the NamUs database but the detectives will not sign off on it. There is either something they do not wish to disclose publicly or something else is at work here. Last time I inquired about the mother (otherwise known as JD 10) with my contact was several weeks ago. At that time I was told there is a new medical examiner and we are back at square one.

In my opinion this victim deserves to have some attempt made toward her identification. To be in limbo indefinitely and left out in the cold from the database of the missing and unidentified is wrong on many levels.

PS To my knowledge it was reported that of the mother they had her "torso" and "uppers" - though not quite sure what that means exactly (but I guess no head). And I know JD 9 (9098) whose head was found nearby was reportedly found in a plastic garbage bag and I've seen reports that say the mother (JD 10) was also found in a bag, but who knows for sure.
 
There's still body parts unaccounted for out there somewhere. Maybe they turn up and add some new clues.
 

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