OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #2

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Friends, the link that CARIIS provided with the multiple videos of severely autistic individuals will break. your. heart. Be forewarned. Thank you, CARIIS, for sharing this with us. I watched, and wept, and wept.

There are many takeaways - too many. But, you can certainly see that there is such a HUGE spectrum in the category of mental illness. As I think CARIIS mentioned briefly in another post, it is/would be similar to lumping cancer in with the flu. Both are illnesses. But .... I am speechless. It goes back to what many have posted about not lumping anybody and everybody with a mental illness into one bucket. THAT is where the stigma comes from (at least once of the causes).

So, we have these extremely autistic souls, who I do not think could hurt anyone if they wanted to. (I take that back a bit, one of my best friends has an autistic son who is now 20. When he has a meltdown, she can no longer handle him because he is bigger and stronger than she is. She is, as all these parents are in these videos, a slave to their child's disability). My point is that these types of individuals with this type of mental illness, are harmless.

Then there is the majority of the population who could be categorized under the category as mentally ill. Those who suffer from depression, anxiety, OCD, PST, panic, phobias, etc. If you research the number of patients on antidepressants, it will blow you away. Unfortunately, it's just not talked about. It's still a taboo topic. Why? One of the reasons is that, once again, MANY if not MOST of the population are completely ignorant about mental illness. I can understand why. It is beyond comprehension to understand something you don't experience.

Then there are the schizophrenics. Again, a range of symptoms and severity from A to Z. My mom spent most of her life behind a locked bedroom door certain that spies were watching us. She would disappear for months at a time while I was growing up. Police would eventually find "this woman" sleeping in the woods clear across the country. Yet, she would never hurt anyone, but, I must share...she did have an evil, dark side. Perhaps multiple personalities. And depending on what personality she was experiencing, her behavior, her voice, her demeanor was living the evil personality. I lived in fear.

I have another dear friend who has a daughter in a clinic for a 5 year program, especially for adolescent schizophrenics. First, he is wealthy. Very wealthy. It costs him $200K a year for her to be in this clinic in Chicago. His younger son committed suicide. The daughter never recovered. She eventually began cutting herself, tried suicide, accused her parents of abusing her....and on and on and on. Mental Illness shatters lives. Families. The mentally healthy siblings suffer. Did you see the little girl curled up on the coach with the pillow over her head when her brother was having a melt-down and screaming in one of the videos? She, my friend's daughter, is not EVER expected to be well. Ever.

And ironically enough, my other best friend also has an autistic son. But it is completely different. He is off the charts OCD, and she is a slave to his obsessions: watching the star spangled banner being sung on the computer for hour upon hour upon hour upon weeks upon months. He can't tolerate change. Has no friends. Is very smart. Legally blind. And - an outcast, because he is 'odd'. Her older son, my son's best friend, is off-the-charts brilliant and finally off to college this year, but he, my son's friend, is FILLED with RAGE & ANGER. His simply cannot tolerate his brothers absolute non stop 24x7 behavior. My girlfriend is a saint. He screams, cries, and then when something happens, he absolutely cannot let it go. The 'issue' goes on for hours. I am at her house on most holidays, and it is always derailed by her son's disability.

THEN - we have the sickos we've been talking about on this thread. Do you see how vastly different the illnesses are within the mental illness category? And CARIIS is right, alot of people still think anyone who has a mental illness is 'crazy' and talks to clouds. (a bit of an exaggeration, but on point).

The sadistic, sociopaths we have been referencing in this thread were...are in a different category. MOST cannot be helped. There is no 'cure' for such severe personality disorders. You cannot 'teach someone' to have empathy, to care, to feel emotion. You either have it or you don't. No pill or therapy gives you the basic human emotions that most of us feel without even recognizing it. So when we see these horrific criminals, "we" just can't understand it. Well, of course we can't.

I am now thinking the whole issue is bigger than guns, bigger than mental illness - How has our government continued to ignore what we should do here? Why has no hopeful POTUS politician addressed the mental health/crisis in the context of offering up a going-forward solution. Me thinks: it is just too damn big of a problem, is still taboo, is surrounded by shame and secrecy, and most of all, misunderstood as a result of ignorance.

The parents on these videos have no where to place their child for care. (Unless they are over the top wealthy). Outplacement would be better for the child AND better for the family. IMO. Watching my friends handle their autistic children - is exhausting. They NEVER get a break.

One last final personal story, my own son came home over winter break during his freshman year...depressed and anxious. Fairly serious. He is also suffering from PSTD post Superstorm Sandy where we lost everything we owned and I am a single parent. ---- I had to go down and pick him up mid-semester as he was sobbing. What I want to share is this:

I spent the entire months of December and January trying to get him an appointment with a psychiatrist (in NJ). Guess what? I couldn't get one. Insurance or no insurance. Didn't matter. I called NYC, I called Johns Hopkins. Waiting time for an appointment? Average: 3 months! What makes me crazy (no pun intended) is that when someone is in crisis, they are in crisis! They need help now - not three months from now. The only alternative I was given, which I did not take, was to take him to the ER. And - I wasn't going there. He certainly didn't need any escalation in drama. OR - I could call the police and they would call in a psychiatric nurse, and she/he would come to the house and decide if he needed to go the ER. Again, did not do.

This is such a big issue, the elephant on the table, - the mentally ill aren't important to our govt (IMO) - just as many others (unemployed, etc) -- that are dismissed, which to me means, are simply cast aside and deemed unworthy. 'Not my problem'.

Thanks for listening. xoxox

thank you for this post , the only thing I want to add, is or folks no suffering with the austic cluster of diagnsis, for the autistic or aspeergers what to folks "look at -- the relentless rumination for them it is not ocd in reality , for the folks - all involved is the inaability to not, in their mind , turn off the "hell" in thier minds about pizza, how the clothes are folded o whatever it fixation is on. They cant stop, nor an they stop the internal cognitive frustration that can only be releaed iss via a outburst.

Not in therapist role - but good friend has autistic 26 year old , sweetest thing . When we go to theatre, he loves it, his senses are reponging to the light changes, the sets being moved etc he has the time of his life. He loves musicals-

Mom is in the feild and is awesome with him. In public when people stare at him either she or I , no shame , directly address it by explain that he suffers with Aspergers BUT he does not "pick up" on everyone staring casue they dont have the capacity to pick up, understand nor can they behave, consitaly like the rest of us to social behaorior clues, clueless about social norms.
Not that they are not inteligent - is a symptom of the illiness

great post again thanx gut!
 
thank you for this post , the only thing I want to add, is or folks no suffering with the austic cluster of diagnsis, for the autistic or aspeergers what to folks "look at -- the relentless rumination for them it is not ocd in reality , for the folks - all involved is the inaability to not, in their mind , turn off the "hell" in thier minds about pizza, how the clothes are folded o whatever it fixation is on. They cant stop, nor an they stop the internal cognitive frustration that can only be releaed iss via a outburst.

Not in therapist role - but good friend has autistic 26 year old , sweetest thing . When we go to theatre, he loves it, his senses are reponging to the light changes, the sets being moved etc he has the time of his life. He loves musicals-

Mom is in the feild and is awesome with him. In public when people stare at him either she or I , no shame , directly address it by explain that he suffers with Aspergers BUT he does not "pick up" on everyone staring casue they dont have the capacity to pick up, understand nor can they behave, consitaly like the rest of us to social behaorior clues, clueless about social norms.
Not that they are not inteligent - is a symptom of the illiness

great post again thanx gut!

I am saddened that there is not enough places that people can go to get help.

I watch some of those paranormal shows about haunted places and a lot of them are in closed down mental hospitals. These were huge places that housed thousands of patients.
We know years ago the doctors had questionable and barbaric methods but in todays society I do think that maybe something our society needs to look at again if the money could be allocated.

A good place where both inpatient and outpatient help could be provided. With the modern medicines and treatments it would at least give help to those who really need the help.

Closing them all down was obviously not the answer since now they end up in jails or on the street.
And if any of them commit serious crimes or murders like the OR shooting then society pays dearly in other ways.

Another example when our government wanted to spend a ton of money to boost economy and they gave it to banks. Opportunity missed. They could have built new facilities and staffed with new jobs to help people who really need help.
 
I am saddened that there is not enough places that people can go to get help.

I watch some of those paranormal shows about haunted places and a lot of them are in closed down mental hospitals. These were huge places that housed thousands of patients.
We know years ago the doctors had questionable and barbaric methods but in todays society I do think that maybe something our society needs to look at again if the money could be allocated.

A good place where both inpatient and outpatient help could be provided. With the modern medicines and treatments it would at least give help to those who really need the help.

Closing them all down was obviously not the answer since now they end up in jails or on the street.
And if any of them commit serious crimes or murders like the OR shooting then society pays dearly in other ways.

Another example when our government wanted to spend a ton of money to boost economy and they gave it to banks. Opportunity missed. They could have built new facilities and staffed with new jobs to help people who really need help.

Thank you for this. I agree. Those old places were frightening and people were mistreated, but in our modern world doctors and patients have so many more options. I think if mental health care were given as much priority as physical health a lot of the problems we currently deal with (addiction, homelessness, violence, etc.) would become more manageable. They wouldn't vanish, of course, but it could lead to a big difference in a lot of people's lives.
 
I think everything is overwhelmed because of the huge amounts of vets that have issues. There is only so many people out there who are trained.

It would be nice if we would start way at the beginning such as having child develpoment and parenting classes in schools starting at a fairly young age.

And if kids were treated without shame and alternatives to punishment in schools it would be a huge difference.

i know there are plenty of people that still believe spanking works.

Then there is the other part where parents spoil their kids and do not have appropriate boundaries.

There are so.many positive things that could be done in schools that would change everything. If only we focused on mental health in schools .

I always say the Columbine shooters knew how to read
 
Kind if o/t but probably very critical with autistic child. This is a 1/2 hour talk on attachment in children and talks about secure attachment. It is very reassuring, I feel, because even Dr. Sroufe as an expert on children worries about parental mistakes he made. Truly, it is excellent and I wish something like this could be used for all parents and grandparents as well. The responding to cues children make are vital.

It is not about cosleeping and all that, although he says that is fine if it works for you. This is from the Institutue of Child Development of the U of M in Mpls, my alma mama. It is top rated in the field of child development. I saw Margaret Mead, her daughter, and Erik Erickson in real life when I was in school there!

Another interesting thing. If any if you are following the murder of Dr. Sievers, her sister is referenced on the website for the Institute of Child Development.

http://momenough.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ME-Nov-11-20134.mp3
 
Is it always mental illness, or sometimes is it just plain evil?
 
Is it always mental illness, or sometimes is it just plain evil?

Evil?

If evil is totally self centered, yes. Only you count . No one else

I think he had many issues probably related to his screaming fits and probably Mom not knowing how to handle them and what to do to minimize the occasions that would trigger the screaming, There is a lot more info on autism and strategies nowadays.

Mom's paranoia did not help. The podcast I put on here re sensitive attachment and Caaris's vids I think really illustrate needs that may not be met and the needs inappropriately answered.

Dr. Sroufe talks about how as a parent you have to provide for your emotional well being as a parent otherwise you have nothing to give to your child or you give the child the wrong thing.

We need lots of parenting support and research based guidance, I feel. And as Dr. Sroufe says, it cannot be a tactical list, but rather responding to the cues your baby gives, Very important info, I feel.

Posting again.

http://momenough.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ME-Nov-11-20134.mp3
 
Is it always mental illness, or sometimes is it just plain evil?

No, not always mental illness. In fact most often it's not mental illness:

From It's Not About Mental Illness:

We do have statistics* showing that the vast majority of people who commit acts of violence do not have a diagnosis of mental illness and, conversely, people who have mental illness are far more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

*Facts About Mental Illness and Violence
 
Is it always mental illness, or sometimes is it just plain evil?

I for one believe that sometimes it's just plain evil. There are evil people in this world. They walk among us. They can be very very good at "passing" for non-evil.
 
I for one believe that sometimes it's just plain evil. There are evil people in this world. They walk among us. They can be very very good at "passing" for non-evil.

I've always wondered and never understood how sociopaths seem so naturally gifted when it comes to manipulating people and convincing them how trustworthy and good they are. When they are so evil and awful, how do they instinctively know what will work on their victims?
 
The community lines the road as students and instructors return to classes.

Douglas County sheriff's deputies initially asked Roseburg residents not to line the winding, narrow road that leads to the campus. It was too dangerous, they said. After a day of thinking, authorities changed their minds. Students and faculty needed to see their neighbors as they returned.
.......
And so the neighbors came in darkness to set up tables of donuts and coffee. Pacific Power crews hoisted a 30-by-60-foot U.S. flag. Others waved small flags or held out signs as the sun rose and the first cars began crawling toward campus.
Some drivers waved, but mostly, they wiped away tears as those on the sidelines shaped their fingers into hearts. Grown men drove the mile slowly, sobbing in their pickup trucks.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...school_shooting_student.html#incart_big-photo
 
I've always wondered and never understood how sociopaths seem so naturally gifted when it comes to manipulating people and convincing them how trustworthy and good they are. When they are so evil and awful, how do they instinctively know what will work on their victims?

Just my opinion, no research or evidence to back it up, but I think they discover at a very young age that if they behave the way they're naturally inclined to, everyone is horrified. So they begin, very young, to study others to learn how to behave. Sort of how normal people might, at a super-formal dinner, watch others to see which fork they're supposed to use for which course, sociopaths study others to see how they're supposed to behave in different situations.

Also, of course, they're not all so good at "passing." Sometimes, they're terrible at it, and everyone knows there's something wrong with them and avoids them.
 
"....at Tapestry Tattoo, you can take the past with you forever.

"I don't think anybody lives here that doesn't know someone that wasn't somehow involved," said owner Chere Hall.

On Sunday, Hall was busy. The tattoos were free, with any donations going to the victims. Hundreds of people waited in line."

much more plus video at the link:
http://www.kgw.com/story/news/local...p-get-ucc-memorial-tattoos-roseburg/73817326/

Also, local Portland news was reporting this morning that Snyder Hall will be closed for the remainder of the school year. Still trying to find a link for that.
 
Just my opinion, no research or evidence to back it up, but I think they discover at a very young age that if they behave the way they're naturally inclined to, everyone is horrified. So they begin, very young, to study others to learn how to behave. Sort of how normal people might, at a super-formal dinner, watch others to see which fork they're supposed to use for which course, sociopaths study others to see how they're supposed to behave in different situations.

Also, of course, they're not all so good at "passing." Sometimes, they're terrible at it, and everyone knows there's something wrong with them and avoids them.

It would be really interesting to do a study, but don't know how it could be done.

Kids who are raised in situations where the signals from parents are not clear or are confusing become hyper vigilant. They do it to survive.

For instance, if a parent is smiling but they are giving the message that they are truly angry, the child starts to learn how to interpret in order to be avoid trouble.

The parent child interaction is filled with interesting things.

There is no way I believe that an infant is born evil. They learn all kinds of strange things from parents who are not playing with a full deck . Parents who themselves are cruel.
 
I've always wondered and never understood how sociopaths seem so naturally gifted when it comes to manipulating people and convincing them how trustworthy and good they are. When they are so evil and awful, how do they instinctively know what will work on their victims?

Just a theory but their selective empathy could give them an edge when it comes to mastering how people react to different behaviors. They observe and learn from a position of detachment, much like how outsiders to a bad marriage can often see triggers/behaviors that the parties in the marriage cannot see.

Having said that from what I know Aspergers is the exact opposite, people suffering with it can have major problems because they CANNOT read emotion/facial expressions. For some, social interactions are like a mine field where others can "explode" without warning.

In this shooter's case it appears his social disabilities probably did play into it since not being able to get a girlfriend was listed as a primary motive. He was 26 so his assessment of "never getting a girlfriend" was probably pretty accurate.

Their sad/odd behavior probably does give them a free pass in many people's eyes but socially they are the antithesis of a Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacey.
 
Just a theory but their selective empathy could give them an edge when it comes to mastering how people react to different behaviors. They observe and learn from a position of detachment, much like how outsiders to a bad marriage can often see triggers/behaviors that the parties in the marriage cannot see.

Having said that from what I know Aspergers is the exact opposite, people suffering with it can have major problems because they CANNOT read emotion/facial expressions. For some, social interactions are like a mine field where others can "explode" without warning.

In this shooter's case it appears his social disabilities probably did play into it since not being able to get a girlfriend was listed as a primary motive. He was 26 so his assessment of "never getting a girlfriend" was probably pretty accurate.

Their sad/odd behavior probably does give them a free pass in many people's eyes but socially they are the antithesis of a Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacey.

My daughter had a boyfriend with Asperger's and it was just like that. She had to be very specific about how she was feeling and what she was saying, otherwise he couldn't understand. They sometimes got impatient and frustrated with each other, but he was a nice kid and cared about her a great deal. (They broke up for unrelated reasons. I was kind of bummed, but I learned years ago not to get attached to her boyfriends.)

Her boyfriend had great parents and a stable childhood though. It sounds like the shooter was doomed from the start. I'm not excusing his behavior or saying it wouldn't have happened even if he'd had a great childhood. Who knows. But I think the instability and whatever else happened in his early years didn't help.
 
This is a good paper on the development of empathy:

http://www.psy.miami.edu/faculty/dm...ot/McDonald-Messinger_Empathy Development.pdf

Later into the paper, the author explores the empathy deficits in both autism and psychopathy.

Yes. This also talks about the secure attachment and references Sroufe and Ainsworth. There is a reference to Batson but I think it is an error and it refers to Mary Catherine Bateson the daughter of Margaret Mead who did work on mothers a d their interactions with responses to their infants. I wish I could cite some of her work but I cannot find it.

She talks about how if a mother is not responding to an infant in ways that make sense, the child learns dysfunction. Very interesting .

The psychopathy piece is interesting and it seems like there could be intervention early if only it was identified that parenting was not going to teach empathy because of inappropriate parental responses.
 

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