OR OR - Union Co, Finley Creek Jane Doe, UnsFem 14-25, UP11902, preg, on wooded hillside, Aug'78

[ipa]

Modified again today, Same 6 exclusions. The Jane Doe is estimated to have died between 1970 and 1975.

I saw the modification date update but couldn't discern any changes, wonder what's changed.

 

[HmmMysterious]

Bumping. Jane Doe's NamUs was modified 2 days ago, but I don't see any changes. Same 6 exclusions.

 

[HmmMysterious]

The Finley Creek Jane Doe Facebook page announced that Lakehead University has been unable to extract DNA from the cremated remains. There's no usable DNA.

 

[Susikatze]

The Finley Creek Jane Doe Facebook page announced that Lakehead University has been unable to extract DNA from the cremated remains. There's no usable DNA.

Imho they should have tried a forensic lab. But yeah, cremains are tricky

 

[HmmMysterious]

The Finley Creek Jane Doe Facebook page announced that Lakehead University has been unable to extract DNA from the cremated remains. There's no usable DNA.

@othram do you think you can extract DNA from partial teeth in cremated remains. I know you just identified Linda McClure who was charred beyond recognition.

 

[Susikatze]

The problem is that cremation occurs at very high temperatures, higher than house and car fires. Those leave charred tissues but still there are tissues.

Cremation consumes virtually every organic matter, which is collagen in the bones along with the more obvious blood, flesh and other tissues. It makes the bones shrink and crackle and even melt because there is only the nonorganic apatite mineral left. In teeth, the heat consumes the pulp and any organic matter and makes the enamel open up and shatter.
Ive worked with ancient cremains and those are fairly sterile. Modern crematoria leave virtually no organic matter.

But id still try Othram and/or Astrea, because theyre currently state of the art re degraded and contaminated dna. Also they managed to replicate DNA from way smaller samples as conventional labs.

 

[othram]

The problem is that cremation occurs at very high temperatures, higher than house and car fires. Those leave charred tissues but still there are tissues.

Cremation consumes virtually every organic matter, which is collagen in the bones along with the more obvious blood, flesh and other tissues. It makes the bones shrink and crackle and even melt because there is only the nonorganic apatite mineral left. In teeth, the heat consumes the pulp and any organic matter and makes the enamel open up and shatter.
Ive worked with ancient cremains and those are fairly sterile. Modern crematoria leave virtually no organic matter.

But id still try Othram and/or Astrea, because theyre currently state of the art re degraded and contaminated dna. Also they managed to replicate DNA from way smaller samples as conventional labs.

You are correct here. Cremation destroys nearly everything.

 

[HmmMysterious]

The NamUs file was modified again today. No changes seem to be made to it. The list of exclusions remain the same; these people are:

Melanie Flynn
Laura Flink
Rita Jolly
Laurie Partridge
Teresa Fittin
Patricia Otto

 

[HmmMysterious]

Patricia Otto's daughter still believes Finley Creek Jane Doe is her. Here are Patricia's last known dental x-rays and a written description of Jane Doe's dentals.

 

[MBJ]

@othram do you think you can extract DNA from partial teeth in cremated remains. I know you just identified Linda McClure who was charred beyond recognition.

If @othram is willing, Patty's Voice is in contact with the agency who has the cremains.

 

[PattysVoice]

Patricia Otto's daughter still believes Finley Creek Jane Doe is her. Here are Patricia's last known dental x-rays and a written description of Jane Doe's dentals. View attachment 400998View attachment 400996

Those written records do not match what can be seen on the autopsy photos…they do match the Multnomah County Dor who was found a month earlier. You have to see the photos, not this bs record that has no X-ray to back it up.

 

[PattysVoice]

Bumping. Jane Doe's NamUs was modified 2 days ago, but I don't see any changes. Same 6 exclusions.

Namus doesn’t even have a correct record for my mother….how do they ever identify anyone? How many wisdom teeth are seen in the ONLY X-ray they have for my mother? 4. Yet they documented she has none. They can’t back that info up but refuse to change it.

 

[PattysVoice]

Worth repeating (quoting @PattysVoice (that is you, right?)): "Timms believes the discrepancy is due to an error made by the OSP’s medical examiner while doing examinations of the skeletal remains for two Jane Does in his office at about the same time in 1978. She suspects he assigned his reports to the wrong Jane Does because his report for the second Jane Doe matches her mother’s autopsy photos and dental records."

Yes, that is correct. Here is the report showing he used the first Doe dental information to rule my mother out on the 2nd Doe found in Union County. He states this skull contains “unerupted wisdom teeth”. That is true on the Multnomah Doe but NOT on the Union County Doe. You can clearly see 3 wisdom teeth and no evidence of extensive dental work in the autopsy photo. Do you see the teeth in the photos?

 

[PattysVoice]

Exactly. And that's a huge thing to not have documented it with at least a photograph. Why is there nothing to support this ME's reporting on several identifying key factors. Firstly, the x-ray and fcjd teeth totally match up. Every shape, angle and gap totally line up. Every tooth listed by ME on his list of fcjd is just as the x-ray clearly shows and Dane, with the exception of the upper right third molar. And that's already been explained since that's the likely tooth to be extracted and the reason this x-ray exists. And it's also clear the ME was confused on his own written note by stating unless Patty had only 3 third molars removed when fcjd clearly still had 3 third molars. Okay, he references seeing a note that Patty had all her third molars removed, where's that more? Who have him that note? Why is it not included in the report? Why was there no photo evidence of this alleged near full term baby?
If Patty Otto wasn't pregnant then why would her husband had gone after the guy that she had the one night stand with 5 months previously,with a gun in his hand, leaving the message with that guys fellow employees saying "tell him I've got something for him" ? On the day of or the day after her going missing. Everything about the things that transpired on Patty's last few days and especially after going missing totally suggest that this is Patty Otto. Back before we had DNA one of the main key factors they used in determining identity was clothing and the clothing matches in this case. Then there's the obvious factors of height weight age hair color and distance which all also match. As do the dental x-ray to the skulls teeth and that the skull matches the photos, everything lines up,the eye sockets, the nose, the mouth, the teeth, the chin, cheekbones, the top of the head. I've done multiple superimpositions with just random women and have yet to find a match that fits as perfectly as Patty's fits. I believe her husband chose that location where he buried her because of the known serial killings throughout the near surrounding areas. Not to forget that he also mapped logging roads for a living at that time as well. Everything points to this being Patty.

Thank you! There is essentially no evidence of the full term fetus….they sent a ball of dirt to be xrayed. Wouldn’t that have made the news if there was a fetus found? Wouldn’t there be photos and measurements to determine the gestation? Wouldn’t there be an autopsy report if a fetus existed???

 

[MBJ]

Mel here!

Also, y'all, what @PattysVoice and I have been discussing of late is that Dr. Brady is the one who wrote the dental description for FCJD's official records, not the ACTUAL forensic odontologist of the time, Dr. Charles Thompson. Even though FCJD was IN the state lab in Portland and it sounds like that is exactly what should have been done.

Then, FCJD's official NCIC record wasn't WRITTEN and ENTERED until years later, based NOT upon looking at her skull (because Dr. Thompson couldn't find it - it was back in La Grande by then) but based on what Dr. Brady wrote in his report. X rays of FCJD did exist at one time - I have spoken to the pathologist who took them - but when OSP got dinged for being out of compliance on this Doe's dental records by NCIC, it doesn't appear that anyone attempted to reach out to the La Grande post to find them and submit them. Now, of course, those x rays are LONG gone (yes, I tried to locate them).

These remains were not investigated well from STEP ONE. And we are desperately trying to fill in the gaps now! So thank YOU all for your diligence on this forum and your excellent questions and comments!

 

[PattysVoice]

@PattysVoice I'm confused about the dental information between your mom and FCJD. Dr. Nici Vance said that Patty had her 3rd molars (wisdom teeth) removed. FCJD still had 3 of 4 present. Dr. Vance also said that Patty had two amalgam fillings on Teeth 18, 19. FCJD also had 2 amalgam fillings but they were on Teeth 30, 31.

I saw new information that conflicts with Dr. Vance's opinion. Now it's believed both women had silver fillings on their teeth 30, 31. Patty had all 4 wisdom teeth in her last dental chart, but had trouble with the right upper wisdom tooth. That tooth is missing on FCJD. Was Dr. Vance's comparison wrong?

My speculation is that the written dental record for FCJD is the SAME information for a Doe found in Oregon less than 30 days prior. FCJD was never sent to Oregon State University for a proper dental record to be made. In 1986, the FBI asked Oregon to add the dental chart to the national database. They used the ME description. The ME completely discredits his record, when he rules my mother out and references the OTHER Doe. You have to see the autopsy photos to understand this is clearly my mother.

 

[Soulmagent]

My speculation is that the written dental record for FCJD is the SAME information for a Doe found in Oregon less than 30 days prior. FCJD was never sent to Oregon State University for a proper dental record to be made. In 1986, the FBI asked Oregon to add the dental chart to the national database. They used the ME description. The ME completely discredits his record, when he rules my mother out and references the OTHER Doe. You have to see the autopsy photos to understand this is clearly my mother.

I am stunned! First at how this process has been for these Does ,then about how those mistakes lead to making this a case that may not ever be resolved. 1975 until 1990 , so why is it okay to close a suspected murder case after 15 years? One where the suspect was relly sus? It was the 70's ,it really has me questioning if this mix up was on purpose and maybe this case was different than it was thought to be . Or it would have me questioning that if - it wasn't for the fact that there are a lot of cases that have the same mistakes .
The other thing that bugs me about the mix up is ,were they actually reviewing and comparing these cases against each other with all the original paper work ,or was this a result of people trying to scan records into a data base?
Either way Patty's Voice ,I hope you Easter is wonderful.

 

[Springrain]

Bump. I hope eventually DNA is able to be extracted from the cremains.

 

[HmmMysterious]

Bump. I hope eventually DNA is able to be extracted from the cremains.

Either that or we wait until investigators somehow find the missing hands, arms, and pelvic bone of Jane Doe. Finley Creek Jane Doe's Facebook page posted a video which said that cadaver dogs have caught a scent near the gravesite for the past 2 years.

 

[HmmMysterious]

Jane Doe's NamUs was modified today, but I don't see any changes made to her file. The exclusions remain the same 6 people that I listed back in January.