GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

[Neptune]

The thing about doing this on the internet and not in person is often time we don't know what the actual facts are. The JR case the scanner information and the most recent Denver Post article and then the Fox 31 article and then the LE saying 60 percent was bad. We really don't know what LE knows in that case at all so theories are all that anyone on here has.

I’m not sure about the cases you’re referencing, I am referring to the practice of web sleuthing in general. Facts can come from a variety of sources -- public documents, court docs, press releases, photos, maps, business records, property records. As well as weather, proximity, time/timing, place, and a variety of logistical considerations. All of these are sources for facts for individual cases. In Whitney’s case, there are plenty of verifiable facts to sleuth. The timeline, place, and proximity alone are enough to keep on sleuthing. In active cases of course not all facts are given to the public - nor should they be.

In my opinion, if there is an official public document on probable cause -- you work the details of that document, however scant they may be. Where people run into trouble is when they don't cite sources or get the info wrong and no one corrects them. Or theorize with no factual basis. Those are the root of poor quality results and criticism.

 

[Knox]

On KGW (TV), Kyle said it was the same male "friend" that Holt took the rental car from at Best Buy to go have a mental breakdown for 12 hours.

Within the context of Kyle's tweets, this little detail makes zero sense :waitasec:

 

[laura08]

I have a hard time believing he feels remorse for what he did to Whitney , I believe those are crocodile tears I'm caught and may be sentenced to death in his state of mind. He had no problem trying to hide Whitney and then lying to Le when her family and everyone is frantically searching for her. He cared about himself and no respect toward Whitney or her family or his wife or anyone for that matter. I highly doubt he had a nervous breakdown.. I believe he was up to no good and that should be looked into more. Thats a stress reliever people like getting out with friends and family and doing things shopping, restraunts, movies etc it doesnt lead to a nervous breakdown, unless you probably lost your wallet and all your cash. Not sitting in a car. Was just another lie for him to cover up what he had really did while away in his friends car.
I also think Whitney rejected every sexual advance he made at her that day I'm sure the whole time she was worried if she was going to see Clint again and her family. And I think that made Holt more angry to shoot at her 4 times, he didn't like being rejected, he was already rejected prior knowing she was a married lady with no interest in him. So he forced himself on her beginning from the moment she made it outside the apartment. Again making it all about him and what he wanted, manipulator, liar, murderer and I'm sure theres alot more we don't know about yet. I see him as cold blooded, one bullet is to many but 4??

 

[MySweetRiley]

As I stated before. Possible he had a fantasy of being with her sexually and finally decided the only way he could go through with it was the do it at gun point. So it was planned on being a temporary kidnapping/ sexual assault but after it became a reality to him the implications and then had to kill her.

Someone cold blooded doesn't show the type of emotions he does.

I COMPLETELY agree with you so you are not the only one who feels that way. I have watched many Datelines, 48 Hrs, etc. etc. and have heard of horrible crimes committed by people who stood in court showing no emotion or remorse for what they did. To me those people are cold blooded. After seeing the different mug shot pictures and seeing him in court I can't help but to think that he is showing remorse for what he did, probably not only to WH, but her family, and his own. This is just my opinion of course. The fact that he is on suicide watch proves that to me too. I think JH was seriously struggling with things, I think one thing for sure was probably *advertiser censored*, and that he didn't seek the help he truly needed and very very unfortunately it lead to this.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

... And again- he hasn't gone to trial yet so if ever there was a place to pose the "but what if he didn't do it" questions, this is it! ...

Lol! I like your style.

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

The friend with the rental car should be investigated thoroughly. He knows things, IMO.

 

[surrogatemom]

Within the context of Kyle's tweets, this little detail makes zero sense :waitasec:

*shrug* He talked about Holt taking the rental car from Best Buy to Washington Park, Kyle then stated that he took the same friend to the house and said how him and his wife were looking at renting it. Later on Holt's wife said they were never thinking about renting it.

My own words, but that's what he said on the newscast tonight. Just "reporting" what I heard.

 

[scadder21]

I’m not sure about the cases you’re referencing, I am referring to the practice of web sleuthing in general. Facts can come from a variety of sources -- public documents, court docs, press releases, photos, maps, business records, property records. As well as weather, proximity, time/timing, place, and a variety of logistical considerations. All of these are sources for facts for individual cases. In Whitney’s case, there are plenty of verifiable facts to sleuth. The timeline, place, and proximity alone are enough to keep on sleuthing. In active cases of course not all facts are given to the public - nor should they be.

In my opinion, if there is an official public document on probable cause -- you work the details of that document, however scant they may be. Where people run into trouble is when they don't cite sources or get the info wrong and no one corrects them. Or theorize with no factual basis. Those are the root of poor quality results and criticism.

JR is Jessica Ridgeway...the facts of the scanner thread completely contridict what was said in the Denver Post Sunday article that lays a bunch out and now Fox 31 stated a bunch of new stuff, which LE tweeted 60 percent was bad info. We get new conflicting information on that case everyday. We don't know what the facts actually are in that case.

 

[nikb]

I COMPLETELY agree with you so you are not the only one who feels that way. I have watched many Datelines, 48 Hrs, etc. etc. and have heard of horrible crimes committed by people who stood in court showing no emotion or remorse for what they did. To me those people are cold blooded. After seeing the different mug shot pictures and seeing him in court I can't help but to think that he is showing remorse for what he did, probably not only to WH, but her family, and his own. <snipped for space>

I mostly agree with both of you as well, I think he does have remorse. What I'm not so sure of is if that remorse is intentionally being shown, and if it's meant for anyone but himself. If it's true he's been obsessed with her for quite awhile, IMO it's likely he's grieving her death, even though he's the one who (allegedly and most likely) killed her.

Maybe selfish, remorse that he no longer has her to obsess over and stalk and scheme about, possibly fantasize about, and whatever else. I doubt he cares whatsoever about her husband, maybe some about his own wife (and kids if any?), probably not much if at all about anyone else. MOO. Of course I could be completely wrong, that's just what comes across to me from his photos.

 

[Knox]

As I stated before. Possible he had a fantasy of being with her sexually and finally decided the only way he could go through with it was the do it at gun point. So it was planned on being a temporary kidnapping/ sexual assault but after it became a reality to him the implications and then had to kill her.

Someone cold blooded doesn't show the type of emotions he does.

Some do when they are caught ... I think he initially thought after he talked to LE the first time, he was home free. Then they tripped him up and his story started getting squirrelly.

Someone, mentioned this guys name to LE. They brought him to their attention. Maybe LE asked Clint, who have you or Whitney had contact with in the past year.

 

[scadder21]

Some do when they are caught ... I think he initially thought after he talked to LE the first time, he was home free. Then they tripped him up and his story started getting squirrelly.

Someone, mentioned this guys name to LE. They brought him to their attention. Maybe LE asked Clint, who have you or Whitney had contact with in the past year.

I don't know I think the fact he's on suicide watch, and that pic and the whole demeanor doesn't show me cold blood. It shows me someone who is finally realizing the magitute of what he's involved in and just wants to make it go away by dying.

 

[Knox]

*shrug* He talked about Holt taking the rental car from Best Buy to Washington Park, Kyle then stated that he took the same friend to the house and said how him and his wife were looking at renting it. Later on Holt's wife said they were never thinking about renting it.

My own words, but that's what he said on the newscast tonight. Just "reporting" what I heard.

My post certainly was not aimed at your reporting.

How did we get from waiting for the friend outside of Best Buy, disappearing for twelve hours, to looking at a house for rent. Maybe some additional details will be added so the story makes sense.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Originally Posted by scadder21:
The thing about doing this on the internet and not in person is often time we don't know what the actual facts are. The JR case the scanner information and the most recent Denver Post article and then the Fox 31 article and then the LE saying 60 percent was bad. We really don't know what LE knows in that case at all so theories are all that anyone on here has.

I&#8217;m not sure about the cases you&#8217;re referencing, I am referring to the practice of web sleuthing in general. Facts can come from a variety of sources -- public documents, court docs, press releases, photos, maps, business records, property records. As well as weather, proximity, time/timing, place, and a variety of logistical considerations. All of these are sources for facts for individual cases. In Whitney&#8217;s case, there are plenty of verifiable facts to sleuth. The timeline, place, and proximity alone are enough to keep on sleuthing. In active cases of course not all facts are given to the public - nor should they be.

In my opinion, if there is an official public document on probable cause -- you work the details of that document, however scant they may be. Where people run into trouble is when they don't cite sources or get the info wrong and no one corrects them. Or theorize with no factual basis. Those are the root of poor quality results and criticism.

I think I understand scadder21's take on this. Internet 'sleuthing' has its shortcomings--depending on media statements, for example, and timelines that don't even jive with what the police say. (Eg. the news timeline out earlier today that said her car was discovered at Walmart at 1:00 PM when police statements on the Gresham police web site updates said it was found at 11:17 PM.) Police have actual first-hand data and information that they necessarily withhold from the public for the integrity of their case.

What I've found in my short time on here is, in light of the scant actual information perhaps, a temptation to wade into speculation about the perp's marriage bed, his drinking or drug habits, and his suspected necrophiliac friends. I don't see these lines of thinking as being as profitable, personally.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

The fact there is no mention of gallons of blood and that she was shot 7 times, perhaps the gun he had was not very big (don't know the word for gun strength..). Also re performance ability he may have been unable to reach either erection or ejaculation so got angry at his inability to "perform" and "blamed" Whitney and punished her. Please don't flame me just my opinion only..!

Re Clints statements and use of certain words, I doubt any of us under stress and grief would have the foresight to compose our sentences just in case they were analyzed to the nth degree.

My take on the scattering of possessions would be that he was hoping to confuse LE by making it appear random thereby putting them "off the scent".

All of these thoughts, while gross, are MOO. The crime is gross.

OT under stress ones mind is scattered, my dog got run over a couple of years ago and I wanted to get rid of the body before the kids woke up. I drove around with the body in the boot (Aussie for trunk) for an hour. I thought I would fling it off the local bridge (no, someone might see me), I will dump in a large dumpster, no that's no good either. How about I pop it in the deep freezer, no too gross, chuck it in the bush, no. On and on it went until after being stopped by police at 1am in the morning for driving suspiciously (in my pajamas I might ad...), I drove home in desperation and popped him in the wheelie bin for collection that week. My point is that your mind is racing and no rational thought processes dominate. The next day we pulled him out of the bin and explained to the kids about death stuff and buried him at the bottom of the garden. Now why didn't I think of that first....?

 

[Tox]

My post certainly was not aimed at your reporting.

How did we get from waiting for the friend outside of Best Buy, disappearing for twelve hours, to looking at a house for rent. Maybe some additional details will be added so the story makes sense.

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/jonathan_holt_disappeared_with.html

In the link above, JH showed the rental house to his friend before disappearing from the Best Buy lot later the same day. Locals, is the supposed location of the rental near any of the key map locations?

I am so saddened by this story. Blessings to Whitney's family and friends who are coping with this tragedy.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I didn't really make clear the intent of my question...i.e. would any unflattering information regarding Whitney and Clint be made public if Holt's attorney wasn't going to be using it in his defense? I'm new here and don't really know what happens when there's a trial and info comings out. Hypothetically, if Clint and Whitney weren't as happy as the pics make up believe and their were issues, does that come out as a result of the investigation if it has nothing to do with the murder case itself?

If I understand what you're saying, I think it might come out in investigative work done by either side (or maybe through private communication with an attorney)--but the choice to bring that into trial publicly is made by the individual attorneys at the discovery stage. From the attorney's perspective, the goal of a trial is to win the case, not necessarily "uncover all truth".

 

[Knox]

Thank you Tox and welcome to WS :seeya:

From the link Tox supplied, here is the 2011 police report ... http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/3392_001.pdf

 

[scadder21]

If I understand what you're saying, I think it might come out in investigative work done by either side (or maybe through private communication with an attorney)--but the choice to bring that into trial publicly is made by the individual attorneys at the discovery stage. From the attorney's perspective, the goal of a trial is to win the case, not necessarily "uncover all truth".

Great answer......So pretty much we won't get any more LE information on this case because charges were already filed and may get more details during court proceedings.

Anyone know if Holt had an attorney present when he confessed?

It said he confessed after being told they had his DNA on the drives wheel. Are the rest of the facts presented in newspaper articles in the case from his confession or the police theory of what happened?

 

[MySweetRiley]

This is just my opinion: I don't think that JH has always been troubled. In his wedding photo's I thought he looked genuinely happy and excited not just because he was smiling but I thought it showed in his eyes as well. Someone on here on the other thread posted a picture of him with his wife and in that picture I thought he looked very troubled it just showed everyone on his face. To me he looked like a completely different person from the wedding photos. It would be interesting to know when that picture was taken, how long ago after they married. The only other picture that I've seen aside from the wedding photos are the high school picture where he looks to be a normal teenage boy. So I am wondering if troubles started with him after he got married? It was stated on here too that he got married in the Hall of his church and to do that you have to be an upstanding person. Due to the rape in the case I am betting on the fact that he struggled with *advertiser censored*. And I think most of us are aware that there are some *advertiser censored* out there that is violent towards women. Maybe he was viewing *advertiser censored* before he got married but it escalated after he married. It has been studied upon and is a fact that *advertiser censored* gives men an unrealistic view of sex. He did marry pretty young and maybe he attained this unrealistic view of sex and marriage and his marriage and sex life didn't fit that picture so he just kept turning to the *advertiser censored*. I firmly believe that sin just leads into deeper and deeper sin. And I think that is what happened here. It's also been studied that men who are deep into *advertiser censored* will eventually get bored and will watch worse *advertiser censored*, attend strip clubs, etc. etc. Maybe he went to strip clubs when he had that break down? Maybe his wife didn't fulfill his nasty sexual desires and so he looked else where? By peeking into a neighbors window? And maybe fantasying about other women including WH? And maybe this plays into why he didn't attend church every week is because he was dealing with this horrible sin. I am with others who think he took Whitney for sexual purposes, took her by gunpoint because how else could he get her alone? And did what he did because like many of you have said maybe she did bit down, or because afterwards he knew she would tell and he would be caught. In a very sick way maybe the taking her unwillingly was a sexual rush for him. And maybe it was Whitney because it was someone who lived close by, who was attractive, and looked to be very happy with her husband. Who knows how many woman he has looked in on but very VERY sadly WH was the one who caught his eye.

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

No offense MySweetRiley, but that's about enough of that. While reasonable to assume, there has been no mention of pornographic addiction on the part of JH. Your posts are starting to sound like you have personal experience with a sex/*advertiser censored* addicted person. I feel for you. But please, that's enough.