GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Xavier]

"We" didn't go anywhere--Glow asked me a specific question and I answered it. No one is being forced to go there with me.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the above bolded, I'm sensing some hostility concerning my repeating media interviews with one or more classmates that he was shy, quiet, and bullied (the specific classmate was close to him in lower school, but also knew of him in high school when she moved back to town, though they weren't as close by then). Even if Holt's guilty, does he have to have had a villainous past as well? Should we rewrite history?



I offered my opinion that he reminded me of someone with PTSD that Tuesday and Wednesday. Thought I was free to offer it.



Not sure where you've gotten this last at all. In fact, in my posts I specifically offered that it could be he was NOT suicidal, but under 24-hour surveillance "for an undisclosed reason."

"We're" claiming a breech of responsibility? You've totally misunderstood my post, caffeinejean (and no need for the royal 'we'). Decaf is in order. If LE is keeping him in 24-hour surveillance it's because they ARE being responsible with him. (Maybe PM me if you still don't understand what I'm driving at.)



We can't--and I've never stated these impressions as fact, only my personal working theory in response to Glow's questions.

You might consider rereading this; check out paragraph 3 and the word "seeming"...
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR -*arrest* Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

PIM-- I read the same interviews from Holt's various classmates who all pretty much stated they thought Holt was bullied alot in school, he hung out alot with his brother and the bullying was pretty bad, sometimes getting pretty physical and such, and a regular occurence. The interviews I read the classmates were really surprised Holt could commit such a crime.

 

[Sasquatch]

I've also considered that Holt maybe "ran" with, or hung out with, unsavory, small potatoes crooks. Maybe they wanted wanted WH's credit cards, account numbers, etc, for an identity theft ring? Sounds goofy, but it's rampant in the USA. Maybe, they wanted to steal the SUV, but did'nt due to the massive clean up? Maybe, if someone who struck fear in Holt and was coercing him, what was Holt mixed up in and who with?

Maybe Holt was part of a gang and this crime was inititation? After all, we all know now Holt could disappear and leave abruptly for a long period of time. Was Holt hanging with a gang? How could Holt afford to buy guns, ammo, and other "toys" on a llimited family budget? Why did he need 2 or 3 guns? For gang members possibly??
And why did Holt suddenly get interested in guns when he bought a gun(s) and ammo in June, 2012?

Whitney was murdered by 4 shots, doubled tapped. The excessive brutality of the murder is consistent with gangland style "executions" ( I hate to use that word)Maybe all the anxiety, self loathing/low self esteem, Holt exhibited and stated by his wife, was due to getting mixed up with a gang?

When Holt took off abruptly with his friend's rental car and was gone for what, 12 hours or so? Was this part of the initiation process into the gang? It seems odd to do this so impulsively. Maybe someone told him he had to "borrow" the car? Maybe the gang needed it to commit some crimes?

And when Holt claimed he was robbed at gunpoint by two black male adults? Why did Holt choose this alibi, maybe because he's conditioned to thinking this way as a gang member and had his biases?

Holt did keep alot to himself. Maybe this was the guilt he carried around with him?

Here's a link I found supporting the growth of gangs in the Gresham,OR area.
LINK:http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/03/gresham_holds_forum_to_address.html

GRESHAM -- In a quavering voice and fighting back tears, Rockwood apartment resident Tammy Zuniga described the terror she and her family have been subjected to by Gresham gang members.

In a presentation, police have identified 114 gangs in Gresham, and though property crimes such as burglary have gone down in the past five years, crimes against people have gone up 15 percent. Robberies were up 34 percent and assaults 13 percent.


As an amatuer sleuther, I'm simply looking into the questions of WHY this crime could involve a gang.

The hodge-podge placing of evidence, the brutal execution style of the murder and the constant, the volunteering of information, past irrelevant behaviors(child *advertiser censored* collection), the terror stricken, anxious appearance of Holt once he was charged and put into LE custody on 24 hour suicide watch. (Is Holt still under suicide watch?) All of these behaviors could stem directly from possible retribution to family, loved ones, which is a consistent terror driven theme amongst gangs.


Anyhoo, ya'll have a terrific Holidays and take care of yourselves and loved ones...Family always comes first

I have lived in the area for a few decades, and the number of gangs have risen, but mainly in the annexed areas of Gresham.

Rockwood (181st Street) to 162nd Street is where the majority of the gang crimes happen. Farm land and the low income housing was annexed into Gresham back in the 80's. This area does not reflect the main parts of Gresham, including over by WH's apartments.

Most gang activity revolves around drugs and theft. Because the Max Lightrail runs through the areas off of Burnside, this is the main corridor of most crimes. On 181st Street there was a man shot in his car, due to a bad drug deal this year. They didn't drag his body anywhere, they just shot him and left him in his car. Other shootings are usually domestic or drive by shootings. The news loves to talk about all of the violence in Gresham, when most of the people living here, usually view Rockwood as SE Portland.

http://portlandtribune.com/go/43-opinion/18954-lets-welcome-rockwood-as-part-of-gresham

"It's important to note that even back in the 1970s, Rockwood was hardly idyllic. The area always has trended toward less-expensive housing. And crime, while it is more aggressively reported on TV news these days, has always been a part of life in outer East Portland and far-west Gresham."

I would have to say that the majority of the violent crimes happen between 181st Street and 162nd. A lot of gang retaliation shootings. Some of the violence around 162nd street can be outrageous, like the following Gresham headline: Two injured in gladiator-style fight
http://portlandtribune.com/go/42-news/113760-two-injured-in-gladiator-style-fight

The Eastern Europeans and Russian Gangs usually focus on chop shops and dealing with cars. Latino and African American Gangs try to mimic the LA Gangs. Probably 90 percent of the LE gang calls are about the Latino Gangs. Most of the gang members are young and drugs are the driving force. Gresham does have a Gang Task Force. You just can't see a lot of gang activity in the downtown part of Gresham, and the streets are safe to walk compared to a lot of cities.

IMO I do not see WH's murder as gang related, and I do not see JH as a part of a gang. To me, it doesn't look like a gang style shooting. A hitman probably wouldn't have spent so much time with the body, the phone and credit cards were not taken as valuables (besides a few dollars in gas) and her SUV wasn't stripped down for parts.

 

[Xavier]

Hi Xavier,

I saw you mention some of this info in your previous post and I wanted to read your link right then but I was balancing a six month old on one hip with my laptop on the counter and the sky growing steadily dark out my window.
I returned bebe to his rightful owners and did my chores with a flashlight and am back! Ijust read your link in your post, :Banane37:

I do not know a lot about gangs but I have some preconceived notions that I will "cop to" :blushing:

I think of them as being youngish. think of them as being minorities.

So I read your article at the link...

This stood out to me:


Police say that Latino gangs, like the black gangs that preceded them, tend to hang out on the street, handling their business in public. In that regard, they are unlike the Russians and Asians, who cops like to say have "graduated to the next level," meaning they engage in organized crime, high-tech scams, extortion and fraud. As one officer puts it, those latter groups "got smart. You don't see them out on street corners throwing hand signs and selling dope

So this makes me think that JH wouldnt have been accepted in to either a black gang or a latino one. But I did think the comments on the Russian and Asians was interesting. But I dont know if they would take JH either.

If he was part of a gang he will probably have tattoos right? Some kind of gang identity?

I like the fact that the idea opens up a whole other dimension of possibilities but I am not seeing where in his 20's white guy living in a nice apartment, married and a Jehovah's Witness, is accepted in to a gang. But keep developing your theory and I will keep reading because all I want is to know the real truth.




I dont think it sounds goofy at all and I wholly agree with you that this type of crime is on the rise. I actually think this is more likely than a street gang. My one hang up is I think that JH would crumple and be singing like a canary once in jail if he thought he could help himself. I think he is weak in his core personality. I think that is exactly the type that turn states evidence if and when they can. What do you think about JH in that regard? Do you think he could hold strong in jail and protect accomplices?



And you also Xavier!

GLOW-- Thanks. I'm friends with a couple of the District 2 LE detectives here in Cincinnati,OH and though we're not a hotbed for gangs, we do have some "small potatoes" type of gangs.

What I learned from these detectives recently is that you don't necessarily have to be Latino/Blatino, Asian, Russian, SkinHeads White Supremicists to belong as a member of any of these gangs. They all have their own codes, like the Mafia will accept some members who are'nt 100% Sicilian.

They said the "signature" of most gangs is a double tap head and/or body gunshot and the more a victim is shot, the more the gang leaders see a "fearlessness" in that gang member, which is a quality they want in their members.


Shooting WH 4 times, twice to her head/face and twice more to her torso area give me the sense this could be gang related. This excessive brutality, execution style almost is clear as day this crime was not an accident by struggle or out of failure to submit to sex, etc.

What opened my eyes to this being possibly a gang related inititation of Holt is because so much crime conduct, behavior of this crime and Holt's behavior over the past few months has the pure look and feel of being gang related.

I feel it's very possible Holt was going through an initiation into a gang. I also think the gang leaders decided during this crime that they wanted to "dump" Holt as a recruit, maybe felt Holt did'nt fit in or have the chops/make-up to cut it in the gang. Maybe they realized he was too weak, could be easily bullied. So they cut him loose, let him commit the crime, because they no longer cared about Holt.

Maybe they "played" or toyed with Holt telling him he needed to rape WH and shoot her 4 times per the gang code.

Then the gang leaders distributed evidence to easily implicate Holt since they no longer wanted Holt in their gang. Then they threatened him if he talked, they'd wipe out his family, friends, wife.

Detectives have told me, some gangs are such psychopaths they'll kill everyone close to the victim, even the family pets.

The clincher for me was the leaving the weapon in clear view of LE in broad daylight. It was as if Holt was being told what to do and when to do it.
Then Holt "throwing his hands, arms up" in frustration after leaving the ammo/gun(s). This weird reaction was as if Holt was frustrated "Why did I do this crime?" or "Why did I get talked into doing this crime?" ...

The impulsive driving off with a friend's rental car for almost the entire day while the friend was shopping and Holt waited in the car? Maybe this was part of the gang inititation. The detectives told me gang recruits will be asked to do all sorts of things, like stealing a car, breaking and entering, shoplifting, beating up someone, etc. Maybe stalking WH and stealing from the Heichels was part of the initiation too?

Maybe Holt had passed all the tests so far and graduation was sexually assaulting/killing WH. Detectives have told me gangs have these rituals.

Then Holt confessing easily, volunteering all kinds of implicating and irrelevant information, the 24 hour suicide watch going on for a long time, the constant crying, endless anxiety, tormented as if he was scared straight what would happen to his family, wife if he fingered the gang leaders.


I think it's very possible Holt got in way too deep with some bad people and they knew too much about him, the Heichels, his family, etc.

This is just my opinion and I could be really far off from what really happened. LOL

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch,
Is there a reason that your photos of the site at Thomas Road have been removed?
I was reading your last post again about the blood splatter movement and your thoughts on what direction the SUV was parked....and went searching for that older post. Found the post but the photos are gone. Just sleuthing!

I added the photos on my photobucket account to an album named Roslyn and just rechecked the privacy settings, so we should be good now. Here is the repost of the three photos!

 

[Xavier]

I have lived in the area for a few decades, and the number of gangs have risen, but mainly in the annexed areas of Gresham.

Rockwood (181st Street) to 162nd Street is where the majority of the gang crimes happen. Farm land and the low income housing was annexed into Gresham back in the 80's. This area does not reflect the main parts of Gresham, including over by WH's apartments.

Most gang activity revolves around drugs and theft. Because the Max Lightrail runs through the areas off of Burnside, this is the main corridor of most crimes. On 181st Street there was a man shot in his car, due to a bad drug deal this year. They didn't drag his body anywhere, they just shot him and left him in his car. Other shootings are usually domestic or drive by shootings. The news loves to talk about all of the violence in Gresham, when most of the people living here, usually view Rockwood as SE Portland.

http://portlandtribune.com/go/43-opinion/18954-lets-welcome-rockwood-as-part-of-gresham

"It's important to note that even back in the 1970s, Rockwood was hardly idyllic. The area always has trended toward less-expensive housing. And crime, while it is more aggressively reported on TV news these days, has always been a part of life in outer East Portland and far-west Gresham."

I would have to say that the majority of the violent crimes happen between 181st Street and 162nd. A lot of gang retaliation shootings. Some of the violence around 162nd street can be outrageous, like the following Gresham headline: Two injured in gladiator-style fight
http://portlandtribune.com/go/42-news/113760-two-injured-in-gladiator-style-fight

The Eastern Europeans and Russian Gangs usually focus on chop shops and dealing with cars. Latino and African American Gangs try to mimic the LA Gangs. Probably 90 percent of the LE gang calls are about the Latino Gangs. Most of the gang members are young and drugs are the driving force. Gresham does have a Gang Task Force. You just can't see a lot of gang activity in the downtown part of Gresham, and the streets are safe to walk compared to a lot of cities.

IMO I do not see WH's murder as gang related, and I do not see JH as a part of a gang. To me, it doesn't look like a gang style shooting. A hitman probably wouldn't have spent so much time with the body, the phone and credit cards were not taken as valuables (besides a few dollars in gas) and her SUV wasn't stripped down for parts.

Thanks SasQuatch--- Local detectives in my area told me the initiation into a gang does not always mean theft of valuables. If Holt was part of some gang initiation and the purpose to graduate was sexaul assault/murder then they leave it at and sometimes don't care about stealing valuables.

 

[Xavier]

Xavier, that's a really original thought. Gang members do buy guns, to be sure. JH was said to be such a loner, though; you'd think his family, friends, and neighbors would've seen him hanging out more with them, don't you think?

Here's another thought; what if Holt bought himself that gun in June 2012 (over his wife's objections) because he felt threatened--for his personal or family safety? (He did say that was the reason he bought it in the interview with LE--though of course, the veracity of that statement is up for grabs at this point in time.)

Just brainstorming. Also, remember the news interview with the neighbor who talked about how odd JH was because he never took off his helmet? Wore it right into the apartment? I accidentally bumped into something online recently while searching for something totally unrelated--did you know that they make 'bulletproof' motorcycle helmets?

ETA: Re your comment above, "could Holt have had a buddy stop by there when Heichels were out of town and that "friend" stole it with Holt there and later gave it to Holt?" - I think someone else giving it to Holt could be another possibility to check out.

Thanks PIM--- Bulletproof helmets? Really ? Well it would be intriguing if Holt had a bulletproof helmet and also WHY would he be wearing it around so often?

Fear of getting shot? Or maybe it allows him the chance to "hide" from people. Maybe this is what gang members do, wear their helmets around to avoid being noticed

 

[Xavier]

So this makes me think that JH wouldnt have been accepted in to either a black gang or a latino one. But I did think the comments on the Russian and Asians was interesting. But I dont know if they would take JH either.

If he was part of a gang he will probably have tattoos right? Some kind of gang identity?

I like the fact that the idea opens up a whole other dimension of possibilities but I am not seeing where in his 20's white guy living in a nice apartment, married and a Jehovah's Witness, is accepted in to a gang. But keep developing your theory and I will keep reading because all I want is to know the real truth.


GLOW--- Thanks for replying. Well, consider not all gangs have the stereotypical trademarks of tattoos, haircuts, certain clothing, etc, sometimes gangs just blend in with the rest of the world, looking like normal people

Holt was clever at concealing from others his child *advertiser censored* stuff, wicked obsession of WH, mental health problems, where he went when he disappeared, the Heichels belongings, his plan to abduct/murder WH, maybe other things he stole,and so on.

Was Holt really this nice church going guy with a strong marriage, strong social networks, respnsible, dependable work history?

So why would hiding his gang affiliation be so hard for him?

 

[Glow]

I have lived in the area for a few decades, and the number of gangs have risen, but mainly in the annexed areas of Gresham.

Rockwood (181st Street) to 162nd Street is where the majority of the gang crimes happen. Farm land and the low income housing was annexed into Gresham back in the 80's. This area does not reflect the main parts of Gresham, including over by WH's apartments.

Once again a BIG thank you for giving us the local flavor of your area. You are such a valuable resource!

IMO I do not see WH's murder as gang related, and I do not see JH as a part of a gang. To me, it doesn't look like a gang style shooting. A hitman probably wouldn't have spent so much time with the body, the phone and credit cards were not taken as valuables (besides a few dollars in gas) and her SUV wasn't stripped down for parts.

I too, struggle to see this murder as gang related. Its just too vaguely tidy for one thing.

 

[Glow]

So this makes me think that JH wouldnt have been accepted in to either a black gang or a latino one. But I did think the comments on the Russian and Asians was interesting. But I dont know if they would take JH either.

If he was part of a gang he will probably have tattoos right? Some kind of gang identity?

I like the fact that the idea opens up a whole other dimension of possibilities but I am not seeing where in his 20's white guy living in a nice apartment, married and a Jehovah's Witness, is accepted in to a gang. But keep developing your theory and I will keep reading because all I want is to know the real truth.


GLOW--- Thanks for replying. Well, consider not all gangs have the stereotypical trademarks of tattoos, haircuts, certain clothing, etc, sometimes gangs just blend in with the rest of the world, looking like normal people

Holt was clever at concealing from others his child *advertiser censored* stuff, wicked obsession of WH, mental health problems, where he went when he disappeared, the Heichels belongings, his plan to abduct/murder WH, maybe other things he stole,and so on.

Was Holt really this nice church going guy with a strong marriage, strong social networks, respnsible, dependable work history?

So why would hiding his gang affiliation be so hard for him?

For some reason I am having a hard time making quotes work this morning so I am replying to your last two posts together here...I hope that is ok.

First of all, neat that you have a couple of friends who are LE. Love it! Another valuable resource for the rest of us here.

Would there be any way that the next time you are talking to them that you could ask them a question? I would like to know how many people who are being initiated into a gang and commit a crime and get picked up solely (not as a part of the gang) and accused of a serious (as in death penalty) crime, start talking to LE? Or, do they usually keep mum? I have no way to find that out but am really curious.

When I read the things you wrote about "excessive display of force/violence with the 4 shots, I can see why you have drawn your conclusions. I am not there yet, mainly because I see possible other explanations for the same things. For example, IF JH was panicked for some reason, would he have also "over killed" or, as another poster here suggested, thought that he needed to shoot more because she was still alive? Both of those scenarios could fit with a clumsy shooter unaccustomed to killing (or even shooting). There is a big difference between shooting at a target range and shooting a person.

One other thing that I have been curious about that may seen like a minute detail but I think it meant something, is JH throwing his hands up in the air while walking in the police station parking lot. I originally took that to mean that he forgot something and throws his hands up in exasperation. I am going to read the PDF yet again though :banghead: LOL and look at it through your view instead of what I originally thought.

 

[Glow]

So this is just a post about some thoughts I was having this morning. I live in a very rural area. When I first moved here as a young 20 year old I got invited to go hunting. Wide eyed and eager to try new things, I agreed. I was given a 22 to use and showed the basics. I can say the woods are a beautiful, magical place. It is so quiet, kind of like the way divers describe going under water. I can also say that I shot a squirrel. Yep, bagged the squirrel, brought it home, skinned it, made a dish called Squirrel Fricassee from a recipe I found in a book from "The Foxfire Series" which I had checked out from my local library.

I managed to get through dinner, it was good actually, and I did like the strong feeling of self sufficiency. For me however, it would be a never repeated occurrence. I will never, all these years later, forget how it felt to be in that beautiful immense green space and see life up in the trees and shoot it, watch it fall to the ground still and lifeless. It just is not me.
The conundrum for me was that I like the self sufficiency of living off the land. I like the health benefits of eating meat that has lived a happy wild life foraging. I am just a wuss with the whole "meet your meat" part of it. So I have solved it by trading with a couple of local hunters. I live on a farm so I have access to eggs and milk to make butter and cheeses. I trade them for venison, wild boar and yes even squirrel.

So I said ALL that to say this:
If a person has never shot a gun at another living thing and killed it, they have no way ahead of time to know how that experience is going to affect them. It is totally different than target shooting. They are not even in the same category other than the fact that they both use guns.

I know we have all discussed double tap and its spillover into mainstream culture. There has also been discussion here on why JH felt he had to shoot so many times. I dont know if this has been mentioned but what if there was a struggle over the gun itself resulting in at least a couple of shots? We do know there were not stray shots. UNLESS the casings were picked up and tossed or pocketed. So maybe we dont really know that either?

Can ballistics tell how many times a gun was fired? I am wondering if the shot that took out the window was in combination with the 4 shots we definitely know of or was it separate?

 

[Xavier]

Once again a BIG thank you for giving us the local flavor of your area. You are such a valuable resource!




I too, struggle to see this murder as gang related. Its just too vaguely tidy for one thing.

So this is just a post about some thoughts I was having this morning. I live in a very rural area. When I first moved here as a young 20 year old I got invited to go hunting. Wide eyed and eager to try new things, I agreed. I was given a 22 to use and showed the basics. I can say the woods are a beautiful, magical place. It is so quiet, kind of like the way divers describe going under water. I can also say that I shot a squirrel. Yep, bagged the squirrel, brought it home, skinned it, made a dish called Squirrel Fricassee from a recipe I found in a book from "The Foxfire Series" which I had checked out from my local library.

I managed to get through dinner, it was good actually, and I did like the strong feeling of self sufficiency. For me however, it would be a never repeated occurrence. I will never, all these years later, forget how it felt to be in that beautiful immense green space and see life up in the trees and shoot it, watch it fall to the ground still and lifeless. It just is not me.
The conundrum for me was that I like the self sufficiency of living off the land. I like the health benefits of eating meat that has lived a happy wild life foraging. I am just a wuss with the whole "meet your meat" part of it. So I have solved it by trading with a couple of local hunters. I live on a farm so I have access to eggs and milk to make butter and cheeses. I trade them for venison, wild boar and yes even squirrel.

So I said ALL that to say this:
If a person has never shot a gun at another living thing and killed it, they have no way ahead of time to know how that experience is going to affect them. It is totally different than target shooting. They are not even in the same category other than the fact that they both use guns.

I know we have all discussed double tap and its spillover into mainstream culture. There has also been discussion here on why JH felt he had to shoot so many times. I dont know if this has been mentioned but what if there was a struggle over the gun itself resulting in at least a couple of shots? We do know there were not stray shots. UNLESS the casings were picked up and tossed or pocketed. So maybe we dont really know that either?

Can ballistics tell how many times a gun was fired? I am wondering if the shot that took out the window was in combination with the 4 shots we definitely know of or was it separate?

GLOW-- I really have no idea about ballistics testing, except I've read the gunshot vapors/residues can stay for as long as maybe 5 days on clothing, but can be fairly quickly washed off of skin.

With all the different, good theories everyone's suggesting, and many making perfect sense, maybe's it's very possible Holt was just a complete scatter-brain at this murder and there were no accomplices, no gangs, no hidden motives involving someone coercing Holt to do this crime.

As much as OJ Simpson disgusts me, it crossed my mind his defense team pled Not Guilty like Holt's team is doing and during the trial they very successfully created several scenarios involving others, LE racism, gangs/drug dealers, the mob, unknown assailant, etc, even though Simpson's DNA evidence was all over the crime scenes, his home, SUV.

And Orenthal James Simpson was declared Not Guilty despite overwhelming signs pointing right at him. There are some really eye opening theories of someone else committing that crime, but you can check that out on youtube.com

So I'm very curious if some of the different scenarios we all discussed on WS per WH's crime will come into play and maybe the Holt team has similar scenarios ala OJ Simpson's defense team that they played out and won on?


I am wondering is it normal for a trial to be be set so far down the road one year away?

Or does this mean maybe Holt's defense team has more information leading to other suspects, witnesses, etc that they're waiting to charge to help Holt's defense? I don't know I'm not that up to speed on trial's timeline dates and maybe I'm not connecting the dots.

 

[Boodles]

One other thing that I have been curious about that may seen like a minute detail but I think it meant something, is JH throwing his hands up in the air while walking in the police station parking lot. I originally took that to mean that he forgot something and throws his hands up in exasperation. I am going to read the PDF yet again though :banghead: LOL and look at it through your view instead of what I originally thought.

Glow, I would love to know what you thought about this. It was so strange! Yet, it was included in the pdf, so LE must have considered it somehow significant, right?

 

[caffeinejean]

Once again a BIG thank you for giving us the local flavor of your area. You are such a valuable resource!

I too, struggle to see this murder as gang related. Its just too vaguely tidy for one thing.

Hi Sas, Thank you for providing the photos again and your knowledge of the Gresham area and surrounding territory. And most of all ... thank you for your thoughts and theories as they relate to the facts as we know them. I so appreciate your input and insight. So ditto what Glow just said!

FWIW, some of the articles that were presented on gangs in the Gresham area were very outdated. A lot has changed since 2004, 2007. There has been a revival of sorts and Gresham city planners continue to focus on bringing it back. Also, I just can't envision Holt being a gang member either. Unless, the old navy Red long sleeve t-shirt is his identifier.:waitasec:

 

[caffeinejean]

Glow, I would love to know what you thought about this. It was so strange! Yet, it was included in the pdf, so LE must have considered it somehow significant, right?

Just going to throw this in since I'm online: Regarding JH and his hands thrown in the air at the entrance of the Gresham Police.

My first thought was (definitely) that he realized he forgot to rid himself of the *advertiser censored* evidence left in his back pack in the car. Just as he had rid himself of the guns and ammo on his way to the interview. I believe he was called by LE to come in for the interview late in the day while he was at work. Now he had to scramble to rid himself of all the incriminating evidence that was so hard (personally) for him to let go of.

Another thought was that he knew it was over for him, he was all but caught, so he went back toward his car maybe ready to flee, but then thought better of it when he got to the car.

Then it occurred to me he might be asking God for help. "Help me Dear Lord".

How about practicing giving himself up? "Hands in the air Buster!"

 

[Sasquatch]

Once again a BIG thank you for giving us the local flavor of your area. You are such a valuable resource!

I too, struggle to see this murder as gang related. Its just too vaguely tidy for one thing.

You are welcome! Thank you! Most of us in the area know, that when the news mentions a Gresham drive-by shooting, that they usually mean SE Portland to Rockwood shooting. I heard one of the the LEO say, last week as he was grabbing a cup of coffee, "I am off to the 162nd street area again".

 

[Sasquatch]

Hi Sas, Thank you for providing the photos again and your knowledge of the Gresham area and surrounding territory. And most of all ... thank you for your thoughts and theories as they relate to the facts as we know them. I so appreciate your input and insight. So ditto what Glow just said!

FWIW, some of the articles that were presented on gangs in the Gresham area were very outdated. A lot has changed since 2004, 2007. There has been a revival of sorts and Gresham city planners continue to focus on bringing it back. Also, I just can't envision Holt being a gang member either. Unless, the old navy Red long sleeve t-shirt is his identifier.:waitasec:

You are welcome! Thank you! Yes, Gresham has put the new Justice Center in Rockwood and I believe they will also be putting a neighborhood law enforcement station there. They have been working really hard on cleaning up the image of Rockwood and deterring crime.

 

[Glow]

Would like to hear your impressions about the two photos of JH


when he was first arrested

after he had been in the hands of LE

what do you see pro or con?

 

[caffeinejean]

Would like to hear your impressions about the two photos of JH


when he was first arrested

after he had been in the hands of LE

what do you see pro or con?

Very Interesting Glow! Would these photos be only about a day apart? I never noticed that his left eye sure is droopy or swollen looking.
On photo 1. I see a bit of defiance in his eyes and mouth, smirky.
On photo 2. I see more dark eyes like he's not sleeping very well, afraid.
That's it for now, I'll stare some more and probably won't sleep well either.

 

[newsjunkie]

I could be completely off base with this thought, but the ONLY things recovered in the car were his back pack and the piece of paper, right?

What if "the business card" he looked at was actually that piece of paper. He didn't want to go into the police department with something with CH's name on it while trying to distance himself from WH's murder. So, he takes it back to his car and tosses it in.

The PDF says he opened the door, reached his hands inside the car, and then closes the door. So a quick grab or a quick drop.

I still contend it has nothing to do with the murder though.

 

[Glow]

I think each of us has a "persona" which is kind of like clothing for the personality so to speak. Its that mental "gearing up" that we all do when we open the door to the UPS man or head out to work.

Then we have the person. I think we are most our "person" when waking up, falling asleep or in the shower :great: . Just where we simply "are".

In the first picture I see a whole lot of his "persona". I see smirkiness also caffeinejean. Along with maybe a hint that he is aware his picture is being taken and going to be seen by the public and wanting to look a certain "way". Posing in other words. I think he thinks of himself as a "good looking" guy (wheres that vomit smiley???)

What little I can see of his body, he seems pretty alert and upright which indicate some self possesion and maybe even confidence.



In the second one, he looks sallow, slumped over, scared. LIke maybe he is beginning to realize this is BIG. Big and not good for him. He also looks a little self pitying....like people are not "getting him" and "understanding" him the way he feels they should.

In both pictures there is a lot of immaturity. You know, the kind that cute shallow guys display?

His poor wife. I bet she had to play more "mop up mommy" than cherished wife.