GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

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Missed the driver's side remarks the first time around, Glow. The tooth fragment there (and some glass on the floor) would also be consistent with her killer shooting her first through the front passenger window, possibly because she'd locked the door. Once the window was shot, it could be broken out the rest of the way by her assailant.

**Have they accounted for all the broken glass? (Was it all found at the scene of the murder, in the car, or both?)

The fact that she appeared to have been shot in the front seat, but that there was so much blood pooling in the back floor area, means she was shot in the head in the front seat, possibly through the window, window busted out or door opened, and then shot 3 more times (shell casings found in the front). Then her body was moved to the back seat (either immediately or after gassing up) for the trip up the mountain.

(ETA: I'm wondering if there were any through and through shots lodged in the front seat that would support this scenario, but understandably we don't know all the details of the evidence found in the car.)

I think your logic (as well as others' recent posts) makes sense on how this occurred. However, the passenger side front window being the only window missing is what concerns me. Nowhere in the affidavit does it mention entry/exit wounds on WH nor does it mention anything about bullet holes IN the vehicle. If the "kill shot" was indeed while she was sitting in the front passenger seat, this would indicate that he shot her from the driver's seat, through the passenger front window and NOT from outside of the vehicle looking through the passenger front window. If he had shot her from outside the passenger front window, the shell casing would have landed on the ground, not in the vehicle.

On a further note, in the affidavit (pgs 23/24/25), it states that Detective Seymour observed the following:

-"The rear seat was lowered. On top of the rear seat was a large black rubber mat that was consistent with the size that would cover the rear storage area when the rear seats were in the upright position. On top of the black rubber mat was a brown automotive carpet that appeared to fit in the rear storage area. The rubber mat and the carpeted mat appeared out of place and would normally have been located nearer the rear door. On top of the brown carpeted mat Detective Seymour saw seven white table linens strewn about."
-"He observed a large wet stained area in the middle of the floorboards partially under the front part of the rear seat and this covered an area of about 36" by 24". He observed that it appeared that a red colored substance, that was consistent with the color of blood, had pooled in this area. He saw some darker red clumps that were consistent with coagulated blood."
-"It appeared to Detective Seymour that the source of the blood had been positioned near the center of the rear seat and the blood flowed down and onto the floorboard."
-"He observed a red colored drip, which was consistent with the color and drip characteristics of blood, on the driver's side of the front passenger's seat belt receptacle."


Based on these findings in the affidavit, it sounds to me like he may have shot her first from the front driver's seat facing to the right looking at the front passenger seat, allowing the bullet to exit through the front passenger window and thus shattering it while also causing the scattered "red and white matter" on the front windshield and leaving the tooth fragment in the front driver's floorboard. He then *quickly* moved the body to the rear seat, folded down with the rubber mat covering the seats and perhaps he then placed those scattered white linens over her body or the other carpet mat to conceal it while driving. However, this did not stop the blood from dripping and collecting/coagulating on the floorboard below.

What I really don't understand though is how the other 3 shell casings were INSIDE the vehicle and the coroner stating that WH had 4 gunshot wounds but there being no evidence mentioned of the projectiles (actual bullet) being found or other holes inside the vehicle. In the affidavit, they were very specific about every little spot and extreme detail but no mention of any holes or damage from a bullet. Also, IIRC, there was also no mention of there being blood on the actual back of the rear seats from when they were folded down. Based on the "source" of the blood the detective thought WH was on the rear seat, dripping blood onto the floorboard below.

MOO, I believe he shot and killed her inside the vehicle (at Roslyn lake where he told LE he did the deed), then proceeded to move the body to the rear with the seats folded down, covered up the body with the carpet and/or linens, attempted to do a "basic cleanup" and remove largely visible blood spots from inside the car that others could've potentially seen while he was driving or stopping for gas, and then finally transported her to Larch Mtn to dump the body.
 
Trust me there is no room for a body on the rear floor area when the seats are folded (Lowered) down.

Here are a few more pictures. There isn't even 3-4 inches in between the console and the rear seat when folded down. The rear seat where you sit slides ahead when the seat back is lowered.

Picture012.jpg


Picture011.jpg


Picture010.jpg


Picture013.jpg

Maybe he temporarily laid her on top of the back seat after shooting her. Then, once he transferred her body to the rear of the vehicle, he folded down the back seats to conceal the blood that had pooled there.
 
Hopeful One, such a large pool of blood makes me think she did most of her bleeding out in the car.

I'm not as inclined to think that pool came from her head and being slumped over in the front seat after being shot there, as she was only 5'2"--and while she was shot 2x in the head, she was also shot 2x in the chest/torso area--more blood would have pooled out from there, especially after the heart stopped beating. If slumped over, she'd have bled out a LOT in the front seat area, probably between the console and front right passenger seat. (If the seats were not leather, the front seat would have also absorbed a lot of that blood.)

From the amount of blood you've described in this quote, it appears that she was placed in that back seat floor area not too long after being shot 4x.

I think that's right. He placed her back there, and then covered her with some of those 16 wedding linens so her body wouldn't be visible. MOO
 
Trust me there is no room for a body on the rear floor area when the seats are folded (Lowered) down.

Here are a few more pictures. There isn't even 3-4 inches in between the console and the rear seat when folded down. The rear seat where you sit slides ahead when the seat back is lowered.

That would be true UNLESS the body was there first, and then the back seats lowered. The seats wouldn't be able to slide as far forward if that was the case.

Then there was a gap, so he put some of the linens and the cargo cover/carpet on top of the folded down back seats. That would keep anything on the floor hidden.

Thinking about this in so much detail is making me feel ill.
 
My thoughts are the same. In fact, I had just gone out to look at my jeep that has the same configuration of rear seating. I've put quite abit of travel gear on the floor behind the front seats before lowering the rear seats to add even more. And no one would be able to see what was under the folded rear seats.
I think a small body could have fit on the floorboards behind the front seats and then have the rear seats folded down. This would explain the pooling of blood on the floorboards and the clump of hair mentioned stuck to the upper portion of the rear seat. Page 7, 8, and 9 of the affadavit explains most of all the blood evidence. http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_...ther/holt1.pdf
Also that the attendant would not see a body. Thanks Joe Friday for the great pics.
 
I said that too, when we first got a copy of the affidavit, but I think someone said they didn't think it was so weird because they were part of the search party all day. I sorta let it go, here. But it's something that has been in my mind for a while. Was it getting dark at almost 7pm? And she would have recognized him, presumably from behind, if they were traveling the same direction, on a side walk, while she was driving?? It all just feels creepy to me on this one. :moo:

Well, the second part of this about them that bothers me is something another poster brought to my attention who read the whole pdf (I'm still plowing thru it)--that after the Judds called Holt's anxious, worried wife, they didn't take Holt home for another two hours. Why not? Where did they go with him that was more important at that point?
 
That would be true UNLESS the body was there first, and then the back seats lowered. The seats wouldn't be able to slide as far forward if that was the case.

Then there was a gap, so he put some of the linens and the cargo cover/carpet on top of the folded down back seats. That would keep anything on the floor hidden.

Thinking about this in so much detail is making me feel ill.

I think if you read the affidavit carefully there is enough said that indicates she was lying on the rear seat while it was in the upright position. JMO

"He observed a red stain on the front middle portion of the 3/4 rear seat. He observed that the stain was directly above the large pooled stain on the rear floorboards".

ETA: "It appeared to Detective Seymor that the source of the blood had been positioned near the center of the rear seat and the blood flowed down and onto the floorboard"
 
Just read the affidavit and I'm reading through the discussion here of where she was possibly shot. It doesn't seem (thanks to the pictures provided by Joe Friday - you rock!) that there was enough space to put her body on the floor in the back with the seats folded down.

From what I read, I thought the large pooling of blood in the back was behind the front passenger seat AND close to the middle of the back seat floor. If that made sense, lol. I'll have to go back and read that again to see if that's what it said or if I just read it wrong but that was the picture I had in my head after reading it.

Anyway, is it possible she was shot in the front passenger seat and her body slumped over, leaving her head hanging off the side of the passenger seat, towards the middle of the truck, thereby pooling the blood on the floor in the back?
BBM
I was thinking this, too. Wouldn't that be more likely if she was shot from outside the vehicle on the passenger side, while she was sitting in the passenger seat? I'm not an expert in ballistics, but it seems that the impact of the first bullet, if shot from the outside through the closed window would be lessened but the impact of the second bullet shot through the open window (after the glass was shot out) could force her head back so that it dangled between the seats. That would then explain the next two bullets hitting her in the torso because her head was hanging behind the seats. The splatters on the windshield, I suppose, could have been from the first bullet to her head?

Again, I think JH lowered the seats in the back after the blood pooled there to conceal it. I can't imagine why he didn't leave her body at Dodge Park, if that's where they were before 9:00 a.m. and where he killed her. But, if he did make a haphazard effort to clean the front seat and windshield and conceal the blood on the floorboards behind the front seats, I think it's likely he did have her in the rear of the vehicle at the gas station. Since he had to return to that area (Stark St.) to access the road going to Larch Mt. anyway, he probably stopped at the Shell to ensure he had enough fuel for the trip and back.

JH probably concealed the body with the floor mats and linens in the rear space. No matter what scenario you consider, JH's actions do not make sense. But, then, what he did to Whitney was totally irrational. I don't know why he chose to move WH's body from the crime scene, but the sequence of committing the crime at Dodge Park (approx. 7:00 a.m. - 9:00 a.m.), gassing up at Shell and then disposing of the body on Larch Mt. (10:00 a.m. - 10:30 a.m., deducting travel time) would also give JH time for clean up at the murder scene and, later, disposal of evidence.
 
Hopeful One, such a large pool of blood makes me think she did most of her bleeding out in the car.

I'm not as inclined to think that pool came from her head and being slumped over in the front seat after being shot there, as she was only 5'2"--and while she was shot 2x in the head, she was also shot 2x in the chest/torso area--more blood would have pooled out from there, especially after the heart stopped beating. If slumped over, she'd have bled out a LOT in the front seat area, probably between the console and front right passenger seat. (If the seats were not leather, the front seat would have also absorbed a lot of that blood.)

From the amount of blood you've described in this quote, it appears that she was placed in that back seat floor area not too long after being shot 4x.
Sorry to sound like a broken record:

:waitasec: So now do we know for sure that Whitney was indeed shot twice in the head and twice in the chest? I've still not seen that anywhere but here. TIA

BBM
 
Well, the second part of this about them that bothers me is something another poster brought to my attention who read the whole pdf (I'm still plowing thru it)--that after the Judds called Holt's anxious, worried wife, they didn't take Holt home for another two hours. Why not? Where did they go with him that was more important at that point?

Wow, you're totally right, I didn't catch this before, but sure enough on page 34 out of 44 (pg 18 stated on affidavit) it says:

"Amanda Holt told them (LE) that her friend, Amanda Judd, called and asked how she was. When Amanda Holt said that Jonathan Holt was missing, Amanda Judd responded, 'No he's not, he's right here on 257th and Stark, walking around.' Amanda Holt said this conversation happened close to 1900 hours.

Amanda Holt was told by Amanda Judd that her husband did not want to get into the car with them at first but ended up finally coming home with them. She reported, 'They ended up taking him anyway.' Jonathan Holt came home around 2100 hours, clarifying that it was about two hours after the initial call."


So from the time the Judd's found JH and then after talking to AH and finding out he was "missing", decided to turn and get him, what exactly took two hours to get him back to the apartment complex where AH was anxiously waiting?
 
I think that's right. He placed her back there, and then covered her with some of those 16 wedding linens so her body wouldn't be visible. MOO

and

I think your logic (as well as others' recent posts) makes sense on how this occurred. However, the passenger side front window being the only window missing is what concerns me. Nowhere in the affidavit does it mention entry/exit wounds on WH nor does it mention anything about bullet holes IN the vehicle. If the "kill shot" was indeed while she was sitting in the front passenger seat, this would indicate that he shot her from the driver's seat, through the passenger front window and NOT from outside of the vehicle looking through the passenger front window. If he had shot her from outside the passenger front window, the shell casing would have landed on the ground, not in the vehicle.

YES. Good catch. (Unless for some odd reason the perp picked the casing up from the ground and threw it back in the front, which we have no reason to really think might have taken place, at this point.) Though, it then bothers me (even more) that one of the shots was to the face. Doesn't seem as 'naturally occurring' so to speak, in the scenario of events.
On a further note, in the affidavit (pgs 23/24/25), it states that Detective Seymour observed the following:

-"The rear seat was lowered. On top of the rear seat was a large black rubber mat that was consistent with the size that would cover the rear storage area when the rear seats were in the upright position. On top of the black rubber mat was a brown automotive carpet that appeared to fit in the rear storage area. The rubber mat and the carpeted mat appeared out of place and would normally have been located nearer the rear door. On top of the brown carpeted mat Detective Seymour saw seven white table linens strewn about."
-"He observed a large wet stained area in the middle of the floorboards partially under the front part of the rear seat and this covered an area of about 36" by 24". He observed that it appeared that a red colored substance, that was consistent with the color of blood, had pooled in this area. He saw some darker red clumps that were consistent with coagulated blood."
-"It appeared to Detective Seymour that the source of the blood had been positioned near the center of the rear seat and the blood flowed down and onto the floorboard."
-"He observed a red colored drip, which was consistent with the color and drip characteristics of blood, on the driver's side of the front passenger's seat belt receptacle."


Based on these findings in the affidavit, it sounds to me like he may have shot her first from the front driver's seat facing to the right looking at the front passenger seat, allowing the bullet to exit through the front passenger window and thus shattering it while also causing the scattered "red and white matter" on the front windshield and leaving the tooth fragment in the front driver's floorboard. He then *quickly* moved the body to the rear seat, folded down with the rubber mat covering the seats and perhaps he then placed those scattered white linens over her body or the other carpet mat to conceal it while driving. However, this did not stop the blood from dripping and collecting/coagulating on the floorboard below.

What I really don't understand though is how the other 3 shell casings were INSIDE the vehicle and the coroner stating that WH had 4 gunshot wounds but there being no evidence mentioned of the projectiles (actual bullet) being found or other holes inside the vehicle. In the affidavit, they were very specific about every little spot and extreme detail but no mention of any holes or damage from a bullet. Also, IIRC, there was also no mention of there being blood on the actual back of the rear seats from when they were folded down. This would lead me to believe the rubber mat was on top of the folded down seats, but you would think then that they would have stated there was blood on that rubber mat...doesn't make sense.

MOO, I believe he shot and killed her inside the vehicle (at Roslyn lake where he told LE he did the deed), then proceeded to move the body to the rear with the seats folded down, covered up the body with the carpet and/or linens, attempted to do a "basic cleanup" and remove largely visible blood spots from inside the car that others could've potentially seen while he was driving or stopping for gas, and then finally transported her to Larch Mtn to dump the body.

(BBM)

I'm also leaning towards the placing of her body between the seats fairly soon after the shooting, due to the amount of pooling. Though, if there was blood in the seat belt latch area as well, some of that came from the front seat shooting. It's possible even if the seats did not go down all the way, that the killer pushed them down as far as they would go, and then attempted to cover the body with the 16 linens, which were then discarded haphazardly about the rear of the car when he took the body out on Larch Mt.

Re bolded: If perp shot out the window when shooting her in the front seat, I'd expect bullet recovery at the scene of the crime (Roslyn Lake). Over a half dozen officers went down with Holt there that Friday night after the confession; didn't look for evidence because it was dark. Several returned the next day. If Holt told them how it happened, I'd expect a bullet to be recovered at the scene (if it blew out the window from a shot fired inside). I find the pdf oddly detailed and oddly lacking details, too, but wonder if this has been purposefully left out for some reason? (Do they do that--protect some 'evidence' in these until the trial?)

*Was Det. Seymour the one who wrote the affidavit? (Haven't gotten to the end yet...)
 
I have not been following this case as closely as some of you, so I apologize if my questions have been answered elsewhere and I am sounding like a broken record. :)

How/why did JH confess? I read in the affidavit some of the dialogue during his police interviews. But all I've read is his account of the "robbery". I didn't read anywhere of his actual confession (other than a sentence or two about him admitting to shooting her, the forced sexual act, etc).

I guess what I'm trying to get at is WHY did he confess? I know they matched his fingerprint (on the Febreeze, if I'm remembering correctly), so did they tell him this and then he confessed? Or did they have to coax it out of him? Is there an account of this anywhere that I've missed? TIA
 
Wow, you're totally right, I didn't catch this before, but sure enough on page 34 out of 44 (pg 18 stated on affidavit) it says:

"Amanda Holt told them (LE) that her friend, Amanda Judd, called and asked how she was. When Amanda Holt said that Jonathan Holt was missing, Amanda Judd responded, 'No he's not, he's right here on 257th and Stark, walking around.' Amanda Holt said this conversation happened close to 1900 hours.

Amanda Holt was told by Amanda Judd that her husband did not want to get into the car with them at first but ended up finally coming home with them. She reported, 'They ended up taking him anyway.' Jonathan Holt came home around 2100 hours, clarifying that it was about two hours after the initial call."


So from the time the Judd's found JH and then after talking to AH and finding out he was "missing", decided to turn and get him, what exactly took two hours to get him back to the apartment complex where AH was anxiously waiting?

I noticed that too and wondered! It seems very odd to me that there was a two-hour gap there. ??? Hmmmm
 
I think if you read the affidavit carefully there is enough said that indicates she was lying on the rear seat while it was in the upright position. JMO

"He observed a red stain on the front middle portion of the 3/4 rear seat. He observed that the stain was directly above the large pooled stain on the rear floorboards".

ETA: "It appeared to Detective Seymor that the source of the blood had been positioned near the center of the rear seat and the blood flowed down and onto the floorboard"

Could the stain on the front center of the rear seat be from WH's head hanging between the front seats, into the back seat area? As your photos show, there's not much room between the front and back seats, so I could imagine (tho I really prefer not to) that her head came to rest on the edge of the back seat.
 
Well, the second part of this about them that bothers me is something another poster brought to my attention who read the whole pdf (I'm still plowing thru it)--that after the Judds called Holt's anxious, worried wife, they didn't take Holt home for another two hours. Why not? Where did they go with him that was more important at that point?

Pages 28-29 of affadavit
The Judds were driving and saw JH.

They offered him a ride. He walked away. They drove on for awhile and while driving called AH. He disappeared from their sight but they were able to locate him. They got the impression JH was trying to lose them. (How long did all that take?)

Evan got out of the car and walked with JH and asked him what was wrong. Got the robbery story. (How long did that take?) A short time later they got into the car, and took him home.

Could all of that taken 2 hours or close to 2 hours since we don't have definite time frames. . ."close to 1900 hours" and "around 2100 hours"?

ETA: The Judds spoke with police the next day. I think it is likely police were pointed in JH's direction by the Judds.
 
Pages 28-29 of affadavit
The Judds were driving and saw JH.

They offered him a ride. He walked away. They drove on for awhile and while driving called AH. He disappeared from their sight but they were able to locate him. They got the impression JH was trying to lose them. (How long did all that take?)

Evan got out of the car and walked with JH and asked him what was wrong. Got the robbery story. (How long did that take?) A short time later they got into the car, and took him home.

Could all of that taken 2 hours or close to 2 hours since we don't have definite time frames. . ."close to 1900 hours" and "around 2100 hours"?

Yeah, that's true too, even though all parties said it was "about two hours" after the call to Amanda Holt to tell her they found JH, it could've been that they were just trying to talk to him, calm him down and convince him to go home. I can see that taking quite a while with his history of being "upset" and crying, etc. He was probably scared to death of going home and facing his wife, AH after what he did and thinking about it all day.
 
Sorry to sound like a broken record:

:waitasec:So now do we know for sure that Whitney was indeed shot twice in the head and twice in the chest? I've still not seen that anywhere but here. TIA

BBM

I was wondering the same thing.
 
Pages 28-29 of affadavit
The Judds were driving and saw JH.

They offered him a ride. He walked away. They drove on for awhile and while driving called AH. He disappeared from their sight but they were able to locate him. They got the impression JH was trying to lose them. (How long did all that take?)

Evan got out of the car and walked with JH and asked him what was wrong. Got the robbery story. (How long did that take?) A short time later they got into the car, and took him home.

Could all of that taken 2 hours or close to 2 hours since we don't have definite time frames. . ."close to 1900 hours" and "around 2100 hours"?

Your breakdown sounds most reasonable that it could have taken from whatever time the Judds spoke with AH till the time they all arrived at the apt with JH to accomplish all of the above.

Before reading your breakdown I was wondering:
Could the Judds have convinced JH to file a robbery report with LE?
Was it a regular evening for the twice weekly services?
Wonder if the searchers all gathered to discuss the days discoveries/next plan of action and the Judds took JH along?
???​
 
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