Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #64 ~ the appeal~

[Viper]

RSBM

Not only were they liars who set up the scene/selective scene tamperers..... they are psychics who could predict OP's subsequent "story"

BTW Does anyone know at which stage of the trial Oscar's team got to see the crime scene photos? Obv post bail affidavit, but I presume pre-trial? Is the latter correct?

Roux would have received them well before the trial as well as any new images that were created as time passed.

I read an article about the company that they had hired to go though all of the images and prepare a detailed report of all of the "discrepancies." OP was paying them a couple hundred thousand US dollars for their work, turned out to be a complete waste of time and money, just like the crime automation firm that they hired, Dixon's "scientific" experiments; that cost OP his house to pay for Dixon's follies that were done whilst the trial was already underway! Anesthesia experts giving evidence about gastric emptying of murder victims (digestion continues after death - enzymes), Wooly telling the world "anything could have happened behind the door," a psychologist implying the possibility of a mental health defense - ouch! That cost OP a 30 day psychiatric evaluation at a prison! LOL! Oh least we not forget the social worker that gave such compelling and important evidence (sarcasm)! And the Olympic doctor that linked "starles" to firing four hollow point bullets in a good grouping at about the middle point of the victim's body to remove the killer's responsibility for his actions. Masipa should have retired years ago...

 

[cottonweaver]

Roux would have received them well before the trial as well as any new images that were created as time passed.

I read an article about the company that they had hired to go though all of the images and prepare a detailed report of all of the "discrepancies." OP was paying them a couple hundred thousand US dollars for their work, turned out to be a complete waste of time and money, .......

RSBM
I was about to edit my post as IO realised - what a stupid question I was asking. Der!

Anyway that's a devastating appraisal of money poorly spent. *
But I didn't know they actually hired a special team to go through those photos.

It's weird that he didn't come up with a better excuse for the duvet and jeans placement.
Maybe for him , it was just a better bet to weave it into "police tampered with the scene"list ?

Anyway all the stuff you initially listed, are things he could not remember from the scene when he was writing the bail affidavit, hence the later diversions.

* ETA Add to your list of follies - the hired moonlight screamers who were paid to scientifically test-yell around Silver Lakes on several occasions. Thought it was particularly amusing when the ear witnesses remarked on these disdainfully in their testimony.

 

[Viper]

RSBM
I was about to edit my post as IO realised - what a stupid question I was asking. Der!

Anyway that's a devastating appraisal of money poorly spent.
But I didn't know they actually hired a special team to go through those photos.

It's weird that he didn't come up with a better excuse for the duvet and jeans placement.
Maybe for him , it was just a better bet to weave it into "police tampered with the scene"list ?

Anyway all the stuff you initially listed, are things he could not remember from the scene when he was writing the bail affidavit, hence the later diversions.

This was the amazing moment of the trial for me, I was shocked when he said this:

"14:39 - "OP takes a good look at a photo of his room. Oh, if the fan was there, I wouldn't have been able to run to call for help. Oh," tweets Nastasya Tay."

http://m.news24.com/news24/SouthAfr...VE-UPDATES-Day-20-Pistorius-on-trial-20140410

"Oh...". He screwed up, its just that simple and it is a huge part of the State's appeal.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes the OP statement you quote suggests that he's not very bright albeit he is devious - so even with the well paid photo analysis team, the Def lawyers, and all the time in the world, he couldn't get the version right.

On the Appeal, it's frustrating that JJ posted a link a good while ago, that the SCA aren't getting the whole trial record as the State preferred. Def successfully argued that it should be reduced by a significant amount- afraid I can't remember the specific numbers.

 

[Viper]

Yes the OP statement you quote suggests that he's not very bright albeit he is devious - so even with the well paid photo analysis team, the Def lawyers, and all the time in the world, he couldn't get the version right.

On the Appeal, it's frustrating that JJ posted a link a good while ago, that the SCA aren't getting the whole trial record as the State preferred. Def successfully argued that it should be reduced by a significant amount- afraid I can't remember the specific numbers.

Thats ok, the judges weren't actually going to read the entire transcript anyway. Judges can be lazy but most are just really busy so they rely on assistant attorneys, and most importantly they expect and demand that both sides provide the relevant testimony in all packages so that they can see the meat. They don't, and most oftentimes won't, go rummaging through the transcript to try to find information. Nel knows that, surely.

 

[Trotterly]

To accept OPs version you have to accept that all of the police lied and that they rearranged the fans, the duvet, the curtains, the door, and the extension cord before taking any photos the night of the murder. If that is not accepted then he himself admits that his version is impossible.

At 16:54:

[video=youtu;uw6PDga4MlA]http://youtu.be/uw6PDga4MlA[/video]

This is a part of the State's HOA.

I don't see why you have to accept that all of the police lied but I don't think that's ultimately going to be relevant anyway.

What I did find very odd was that the state swallowed a lot of accusations about objects being moved around and re-photographed when it would have been very easy for them to put on the record that objects are routinely photographed, moved to allow further investigation and photographed again. If the necessary timings and notes are kept then what's the problem. But Nel stayed silent and they never offered anything in the way of explanation.

 

[Viper]

I don't see why you have to accept that all of the police lied but I don't think that's ultimately going to be relevant anyway.

What I did find very odd was that the state swallowed a lot of accusations about objects being moved around and re-photographed when it would have been very easy for them to put on the record that objects are routinely photographed, moved to allow further investigation and photographed again. If the necessary timings and notes are kept then what's the problem. But Nel stayed silent and they never offered anything in the way of explanation.

There was testimony by the police regarding the exact procedure that you describe, that is exactly the photographic process the police use. That is why there are photographs, as the investigation progressed that day, showing objects moving.

OP sought to have an investigative company prove that things were moved in an unnatural order before the first series of photos was taken, but they could not find any evidence of such a conspiracy, which is why they never testified. You don't remember Roux trying to say that one image showed that the bat was moved 1mm, and Nel destroying his accusation through that same police witness? Roux never demonstrated that the police moved any of the things that are at issue because of OPs testimony regarding the same; he did ask nasty accusatory questions of the police investigators though, lots of them. This is where a panel of judges will push back, there was never any evidence that the police moved the duvet or the fan or whatever, just Roux's accusatory questioning of the police investigators.

The DT HOA for the trial is about 243 pages, I don't feel like looking for information about this but you might find some inferance to it in the pleading. Good luck!

 

[cottonweaver]

What I did find very odd was that the state swallowed a lot of accusations about objects being moved around and re-photographed when it would have been very easy for them to put on the record that objects are routinely photographed, moved to allow further investigation and photographed again. If the necessary timings and notes are kept then what's the problem. But Nel stayed silent and they never offered anything in the way of explanation.

snipped

A snippet from lisa's blog
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

"Roux shows Van Rensburg some photos and is continuously insinuating that he and his police team have “disturbed” the evidence but Van Rensburg keeps explaining to him that the house was first documented as it was found and THEN they started investigating. Nothing was moved prior to those first photos....To illustrate how he believes the scene was disturbed, Roux shows some photos... ( range of examples)
Van Rensburg states that the photo where the room is darkened (and the fan has been moved) was taken later on in their investigation. Again, reiterating that this does not depict the original scene.

Nel on reexamination establishes that all photos have meta data which confirm the dates and times of all official photos taken at the scene. He asks Van Staden to retrieve the meta data for the photograph of the darkened bedroom with curtains closed.

It is determined that the date on the photo is not the correct year. This was not from the official photographer’s camera, therefore Nel will not even proceed with it because it’s of no value. It was a trick by the Defense. That photo was clearly not from the original scene, but of the scene taken much later by somebody else’s camera, likely another officer (as these are photos that were provided by the police)."

Lisa's blog is really worth a re-visit. She has bolded sections and points of the evidence. In the link above alone eg. Extent of Oscar's access to lawyer, friends and family pre- arrest, hints that the spare bedroom may have been recently used, that the toilet key may have been kept in the outer keyhole as standard,...

 

[JudgeJudi]

snipped

A snippet from lisa's blog
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

Lisa's blog is really worth a re-visit. She has bolded sections and points of the evidence. In the link above alone eg. Extent of Oscar's access to lawyer, friends and family pre- arrest, hints that the spare bedroom may have been recently used, that the toilet key may have been kept in the outer keyhole as standard,...

Yes, OP did in fact have a house guest who I believe stayed at his home until approx. 2 days before the killing.

"Croydon’s Olympic sprinter Martyn Rooney was with Oscar Pistorius and two other dinner guests in a restaurant when the “Blade Runner” is alleged to have fired a pistol, a court in Pretoria heard this week during the South African Paralympian’s murder trial.

Rooney has been a long-time friend and sometime training partner of Pistorius, and was a regular house guest at the home Pistorious shared with Steenkamp during warm weather training trips to South Africa, including 12 months ago, until just a few days before the fateful shooting".

http://insidecroydon.com/2014/03/07/rooney-named-as-shooting-witness-in-pistorius-murder-trial/

 

[JudgeJudi]

You may find the following of interest.

PLACEMENT ON PAROLE AND CORRECTIONAL SUPERVISION:

HOW THE PROCESS AFFECTS THE OFFENDER
3. ... In principle there is no real difference between parole placement and correctional supervision ...

9. WHAT ARE AN OFFENDER’S RESPONSIBILITIES WITH REGARD TO IMPROVING CHANCES OF BEING GRANTED PAROLE
The granting of parole is not a right which an offender can claim but must be earned. Rehabilitation is not achieved by the mere completion of a few programmes and seeing a social worker.

Rehabilitation starts from within and an offender must take responsibility for the crime that was committed:

An offender must accept that the committing of the crime was WRONG,
An offender must assess the negative impact which the crime had on other persons, specifically the victim and the community in general,
Assess and acknowledge the reasons for committing the offence and establishing ways in which these reasons could be eliminated/ addressed,
Understand and take responsibility for the consequences of the offending
behaviour on the offender’s family, etc.

14. WHAT IF THE OFFENDER OR ANY OTHER PARTY IS NOT SATISFIED WITH THE DECISION OF THE PAROLE BOARD?
The Correctional Services Act is clear that a decision of the Parole Board is final. However, the Minister or the Commissioner may refer any decision of a Parole Board to the Correctional Supervision and Parole Review Board (Review Board). The Review Board will either confirm the decision of the Parole Board or take any other decision as they see fit which the Parole Board ought to have taken.

The offender, or any other affected party cannot refer a matter to the Review Board directly if not satisfied with the decision of the Parole Board. However, any affected party may after providing properly motivated grounds for possible review, request the National Commissioner; Inspecting Judge or Minister to consider the matter for subsequent referral to the Review Board. In such an instance the Minister/ National Commissioner or Inspecting Judge may decline the request. If an affected party is still not satisfied with the decision they are free to approach a Court of Law with a motion application for possible relief.

The last paragraph may be the reason why we haven't heard from the family or the DT. When news broke that he wasn't being released, the family said they were considering their options. It appears from the above that don't have the luxury of options.

http://www.dcs.gov.za/docs/landing/Parole public pamphlet 2012 Eng.pdf

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, OP did in fact have a house guest who I believe stayed at his home until approx. 2 days before the killing.
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Thanks JJ. That puts that one back out of the equation.
( I've spent far too long looking up things again that I just can't remember from last year. Lord help me if this matter isn't settled after the SCA - I'll be at it forever - forgettiing, re-hashing!)

 

[cottonweaver]

If an affected party is still not satisfied with the decision they are free to approach a Court of Law with a motion application for possible relief.

The last paragraph may be the reason why we haven't heard from the family or the DT. When news broke that he wasn't being released, the family said they were considering their options. It appears from the above that don't have the luxury of options.

http://www.dcs.gov.za/docs/landing/Parole public pamphlet 2012 Eng.pdf

BIB If the Board says No on 18th Sept, you mean, the only option they have would be costly AND i guess take a while to process through a court, by which time the Appeal will have probably been heard?

 

[JudgeJudi]

BIB If the Board says No on 18th Sept, you mean, the only option they have would be costly AND i guess take a while to process through a court, by which time the Appeal will have probably been heard?

From what I've read, if correct, the review board could take anywhere from weeks to months to make their decision, and if it turned out to be months, the appeal would be over. As for the money, we can only speculate as to OP's financial position and/or Uncle Arnold's preparedness to put up his own money especially with the appeal less than 3 months away. I think it's quite possible that politics are at play here but I have a niggling feeling there's a bit more going on that we don't know about.

 

[lisasalinger]

Hey, thx Cottonweaver Have you guys seen our latest work, Fugitive, yet? Also working on something for The Appeal. I'll be in SA in November and will definitely capture a bunch of stuff to share with you guys!

I have a feeling Oscar will be released on 9/18, immediately after the hearing. What do you think?

 

[lisasalinger]

There was testimony by the police regarding the exact procedure that you describe, that is exactly the photographic process the police use. That is why there are photographs, as the investigation progressed that day, showing objects moving.

OP sought to have an investigative company prove that things were moved in an unnatural order before the first series of photos was taken, but they could not find any evidence of such a conspiracy, which is why they never testified. You don't remember Roux trying to say that one image showed that the bat was moved 1mm, and Nel destroying his accusation through that same police witness? Roux never demonstrated that the police moved any of the things that are at issue because of OPs testimony regarding the same; he did ask nasty accusatory questions of the police investigators though, lots of them. This is where a panel of judges will push back, there was never any evidence that the police moved the duvet or the fan or whatever, just Roux's accusatory questioning of the police investigators.

The DT HOA for the trial is about 243 pages, I don't feel like looking for information about this but you might find some inferance to it in the pleading. Good luck!

Hey Viper...

On direct, the police initially looked a little foolish for the watch debacle (which I still think the Pistorius family had a hand in) & the handling of the door, etc. But then on cross-examination with OP they definitely turned it around. When Nel threw it back at OP to please tell the court exactly how things were originally positioned, and how the police moved them, he was a deer in headlights... he did his usual stammering & I can't think nonsense.

One of the best displays of his flat out lying about the state of the scene was the duvet. OP started out INSISTING the duvet was on the bed and the police put it on the floor. Then little by little, by going thru the other evidence (the blood spatter on the duvet, the jeans, etc) Nel destroyed his story. At the end of that line of questioning, when Nel asked him again where the duvet was - Oscar said "I don't remember." There ya go.

 

[Viper]

Hey, thx Cottonweaver <img src="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg"> Have you guys seen our latest work, Fugitive, yet? Also working on something for The Appeal. I'll be in SA in November and will definitely capture a bunch of stuff to share with you guys!


I have a feeling Oscar will be released on 9/18, immediately after the hearing. What do you think?

Hi Lisa! I hope you are doing well and I am more than a little jealous of your upcoming trip to SA. Be safe, they tell me rich people get attacked in their Fortress Communities all of the time there! Joking, but... I know that it is a wonderful place and you will have great time.


I don't have a clue about when this dude will get parole or even if he will get parole. Just because it is available after 10 months has passed does not mean he is ENTITLED to it, and it seems there are some authorities that feel he should not be paroled. So we have to wait to see.


His "prison confinement" also seems to have rubbed his countrymen and certain authorities the wrong way. With many, including me, believing that he intentionally murdered Reeva, seeing the sight of him playing sports in street clothes at the prion instead of inmate's clothing and being afforded the many special things that he was given (a private shower in his cell, WTF!), I tend to believe that the Minister or some other authority will block his parole, perhaps using the pending SCA trial for conviction and sentencing change as the reason. Again, have to wait and see.

 

[lisasalinger]

Hi Lisa! I hope you are doing well and I am more than a little jealous of your upcoming trip to SA. Be safe, they tell me rich people get attacked in their Fortress Communities all of the time there! Joking, but... I know that it is a wonderful place and you will have great time.


I don't have a clue about when this dude will get parole or even if he will get parole. Just because it is available after 10 months has passed does not mean he is ENTITLED to it, and it seems there are some authorities that feel he should not be paroled. So we have to wait to see.


His "prison confinement" also seems to have rubbed his countrymen and certain authorities the wrong way. With many, including me, believing that he intentionally murdered Reeva, seeing the sight of him playing sports in street clothes at the prion instead of inmate's clothing and being afforded the many special things that he was given (a private shower in his cell, WTF!), I tend to believe that the Minister or some other authority will block his parole, perhaps using the pending SCA trial for conviction and sentencing change as the reason. Again, have to wait and see.

All good here And hope you're having a good summer too! Totally agree that parole is never guaranteed, and shouldn't be assumed. I'm just jaded with the system and think that OP will be released on good behavior. With that said, the justice system looks so ridiculous over this whole thing... first, for the Judge's shockingly incorrect verdict, for the (possibly too early) parole snafu and then all of the talk/images of OP getting special privileges on the inside. You very well may be right, they may tighten up the boot straps and keep him in to save face. To me, it just makes sense to keep him there pending his continuing legal battle in just a few mos. Why the rush to get him out when he could be facing a very long time in prison. I would certainly hope they take that into consideration. It will be a very interesting few months!

 

[Trotterly]

snipped

A snippet from lisa's blog
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/



Lisa's blog is really worth a re-visit. She has bolded sections and points of the evidence. In the link above alone eg. Extent of Oscar's access to lawyer, friends and family pre- arrest, hints that the spare bedroom may have been recently used, that the toilet key may have been kept in the outer keyhole as standard,...

Thanks, its definitely a great resource.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Special treatment, the Olympics, politics and a dream destroyed

The biggest privilege of all, arguably, was the one that made history: the decision to let him compete in the 400-metre race at the London Olympics even though he hadn't met the official requirements.

OP had already qualified for the SA relay team, but it was the individual race that brought the glamour, making him the first amputee in history to compete in an Olympic individual track race.

South African athletics officials later confirmed that he hadn&#8217;t qualified for the 400 metres because he hadn&#8217;t run the required times in international competition, but he was sent to the Olympics anyway, with virtually no debate.

In a little-noticed interview on the eve of the Olympic Games, SA&#8217;s Sports Minister admitted that OP was the beneficiary of special treatment. &#8220;It&#8217;s a sensitive issue,&#8221; said the minister, &#8220;It&#8217;s not really about the athlete; it is a political decision that has been taken.&#8221;

Simon Magakwe, a sprinter who posted a greater number of Olympic qualifying times than OP but was still kept off the South African team, later told reporters that he was hurt and saddened to see his Olympic dream destroyed by the decision to favour the celebrity.

A chance in a lifetime to fulfil a dream shattered because OP is special. What an absolute disgrace.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/the-unmaking-of-oscar-pistorius/article10585576/?page=all

 

[Trotterly]

Special treatment, the Olympics, politics and a dream destroyed

The biggest privilege of all, arguably, was the one that made history: the decision to let him compete in the 400-metre race at the London Olympics even though he hadn't met the official requirements.

OP had already qualified for the SA relay team, but it was the individual race that brought the glamour, making him the first amputee in history to compete in an Olympic individual track race.

South African athletics officials later confirmed that he hadn&#8217;t qualified for the 400 metres because he hadn&#8217;t run the required times in international competition, but he was sent to the Olympics anyway, with virtually no debate.

In a little-noticed interview on the eve of the Olympic Games, SA&#8217;s Sports Minister admitted that OP was the beneficiary of special treatment. &#8220;It&#8217;s a sensitive issue,&#8221; said the minister, &#8220;It&#8217;s not really about the athlete; it is a political decision that has been taken.&#8221;

Simon Magakwe, a sprinter who posted a greater number of Olympic qualifying times than OP but was still kept off the South African team, later told reporters that he was hurt and saddened to see his Olympic dream destroyed by the decision to favour the celebrity.

A chance in a lifetime to fulfil a dream shattered because OP is special. What an absolute disgrace.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/the-unmaking-of-oscar-pistorius/article10585576/?page=all

"For the men in his family, guns and dangerous accidents were a frequent theme. His brother, Carl, is facing a charge of culpable homicide for a car accident in which a woman on a motorcycle was killed. His father, Henke, once shot himself in the groin by accident while cleaning his pistol, according to a South African newspaper"

Looks like recklessness rather than murdering runs in the family.