Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #64 ~ the appeal~

[cottonweaver]

I
Min Masutha's office refuses to accept #OscarPistorius petition objecting to his suspended release. @ANN7tv

International Supporters for #OscarPistorius got over 3,000 local and intl signatures for their petition. @ANN7tv


See https://twitter.com/TheMikeAppel

RSBM

Catching up with recent posts and this one amused me......3000 signatures collected by Support For Oscar. *:thinking:

375 million native English speakers across the world.
The trial was broadcast worldwide. In SA alone c.730K viewers at it’s peak, for week 1 of the trial.

carl pistorius has 19.5k Twitter followers (i wonder if that is his meaning as he re-tweets a quote about “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”) Whilst OP has 365k followers listed with 393 actually following .:facepalm:

*I had a look at some of the petition entries in August. At that stage it was funny to see that some had got their relatives to sign it or had signed up several times with slightly different e mail addresses. So even the 3000 will already be an over-estimate in my opinion.

 

[cottonweaver]

The State has it as an option in their HoA

Yes, I know Fossil, I read that in the news. It invokes a huge range of attendant issues, double jeopardy/changes in law, penury, witness evidence contaminated etc etc........:facepalm:

 

[cottonweaver]

The term 'bankrupt' was probably a figure of speech used by Karyn Maughan but it's probably not far off the truth. His declared assets at the bail hearing, net of mortgages, were R6.8m, well below R18m and that's before the undisclosed Cassidy settlement is taken into account. He no longer has an income. I'd imagine his Uncle has funded some of his costs to date.

Yes, it was my facetious remark based on the use of loose terminology by KMaughan which enabled me to look over a few financial details .......... particularly as the diamond markets were mentioned again on the previous page.

Sincerely though now, it would not surprise me at all were OP to be advised to soon declare himself officially thus.

His pride may however may deter him from realising the potential advantages of such an action. ( On the other hand if the incarceration has worked, he should have been divested of some of that- ego as opposed to dignity. )

KMaughan also seems to imply this is the first intervention by the Minister into parole granted etc. I am pretty sure I read previously, that that is not the case. ( An infamous recent case)
KMaughan tweet :"parole first to be questioned by Minister over when it was granted. Over 3000 inmates already released under same conditions"

ETA " Op no longer has an income" I totally agree he no longer receives sponsorship/athletics related income but could anyone be sure that he does not generate some income from well hidden investments and savings? We vaguely heard about the offshore investments details saved on the hard drive. Find it hard to imagine that a man with as much financial acumen in his family has not got some other options that we will never hear about and only had money sunk into property in SA which is not the most stable of property markets.
I don't know if the Pistorius family assisted him with the legal bill, nor the actual costs of the trial - only an est from DTelegraph.

 

[cottonweaver]

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 9h9 hours ago
"#OscarPistorius parole review happening tomorrow. No official word on where, but we've been told Durban. His lawyers refused right to appear"

Does anyone know if lawyers actually have a right to attend the Review meetings? I've not heard that one before, regarding this case.
I have just re-read the CS document and I can't see it anywhere in there.


http://www.dcs.gov.za/docs/landing/Parole public pamphlet 2012 Eng.pdf


ETA ie , as posted last month, his team have a right, post-decision to go to court over it afterwards.

 

[cottonweaver]

Would the latter underlined phrase avoid the double jeopardy issue?

Sorry Mr. Fossill, I missed your excellent point above in relation to your quote from State HofA -

"The court may act in terms of the provisions of Section 322(4), which in our respectful submission empowers the court to order that new proceedings be instituted on the original charge as if the accused/respondent had not previously been arraigned"

You make a very interesting point - but I don't know if/how that would work.

Incidentally,after the political opportunism( but legal validity) of the release suspension, I just can't see an appetite, on the part of the State for a re-trial. I appreciate that others view this differently, ie. the State as if in a "witch-hunt" over OP, IMO I can't imagine them going the distance, it's all been embarassing enough....but then I'm not Zuma.

 

[cottonweaver]

Easy to understand if you follow the response to the appeal.

It would be the only way to get around Masipa's factual findings.

"Easy to understand if you follow the response to the appeal" Really? And you're basing this new opinion on a sensationalised snippet from Defence's response which hasn't yet been released? New one from you, across both forums.

Perhaps you can explain it to David Dadic seeing as i just found this which reflects my original post of "a classic Rouxism"

"David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic 4h4 hours ago
"@HiRezLife not sure a re-trial is an option. As far as I know it's a standard appeal, Roux is clouding the issues."

 

[cottonweaver]

...calls for a little sanity from SA's AbNews


"AbortedNews ‏@AbortedNews 7h7 hours ago:

Barry Roux says #OscarPistorius can't afford another trial. Guess what? The Steenkamps can't afford another #Reeva. Life is priceless."

 

[Trotterly]

"Easy to understand if you follow the response to the appeal" Really? And you're basing this new opinion on a sensationalised snippet from Defence's response which hasn't yet been released? New one from you, across both forums.

Perhaps you can explain it to David Dadic seeing as i just found this which reflects my original post of "a classic Rouxism"

"David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic 4h4 hours ago
"@HiRezLife not sure a re-trial is an option. As far as I know it's a standard appeal, Roux is clouding the issues."

BIB1 No, it is based on evidence from the trial. I don't scout the net for others opinions I make up my own mind.

BIB2 The problem is the issues were cloudy to start with. Not clear enough for murder for me.

For murder it would have been nice to hear witnesses say they heard a man and a woman alone in a house and that they heard the man murdering the woman. In fact just that the man killed the woman. But we never even heard that. We heard that an unknown person, presumably either male or female, killed either a man or a woman. Not that anyone could be sure about that. The woman - presumably the one killed, was either locked in a closed up toilet, in the bedroom, the bathroom, the kitchen downstairs or running down the street or not being heard at all.....well you get the idea.

 

[Colin de France]

BIB1 No, it is based on evidence from the trial. I don't scout the net for others opinions I make up my own mind.

BIB2 The problem is the issues were cloudy to start with. Not clear enough for murder for me.

For murder it would have been nice to hear witnesses say they heard a man and a woman alone in a house and that they heard the man murdering the woman. In fact just that the man killed the woman. But we never even heard that. We heard that an unknown person, presumably either male or female, killed either a man or a woman. Not that anyone could be sure about that. The woman - presumably the one killed, was either locked in a closed up toilet, in the bedroom, the bathroom, the kitchen downstairs or running down the street or not being heard at all.....well you get the idea.

....which still brings us back round to the fact that there is no proof or evidence to prove murder..........but at least all of this will keep a lot of people in pocket ...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Trotterly #608

Just a tip for murder your girlfriend/boyfriend and you will get off: Choose a more-storey house and spread the fight before the murder on all floors and rooms, demolish all the facility, let some windows open, other windows closed, choose a time for the murder to happen after midnight and don't forget: make your single roommate (personnel) timely dependent on you.

 

[pandax81]

So we have both HoA filed now.

The defence runs with a factual finding of putative self defence and the interpretation that where Masipa said 'did not intend to kill' this means 'did not intend to unlawfully kill'. This is backed up by citation to Snyman, the author of the criminal law 'bible' in SA, and he did indeed last year pen an article with this explanation of terminology of 'kill'. Curious though is we still don't have any reference to Masipa's opinion which would seem to be key here, one wonders if this has been filed as procedure mandates...

Defence HoA is more focussed and repeats their argument clearly and many times to a simple conclusion whereas the state's is a bit of a rambling mess imo. Weak points in defence are rather too simple dismissal of circumstantial evidence Q and an apparent misconception that every Q must relate to dolus eventualis only and not dolus directus.

The state now need to play the obvious cards - big avenue of response possible where the judgment said why OP fired 4 shots not 1 shot does not make sense, if it doesn't make sense how can it be held that the court factually found those shots were fired in putative self defence? From past performance, we are likely to see head buried in sand approach and nothing new from state however.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Media-descends-on-Pretoria-prison-for-Pistorius-20150918

Pretoria - Camera crews, photographers and reporters milled around the Kgosi Mampuru II prison in Pretoria on Friday morning, in anticipation of the possible release of Paralympian Oscar Pistorius.

Journalists speculated over whether Pistorius would indeed be released on Friday; and if so, which prison entrance he would use - the front or the back.

A correctional services officer who asked not to be named told News24 that they had not been briefed about any special measures to take.

He said most prisoners used the main entrance to come in and out of the prison but it was possible that special provisions could be made for the athlete.

........

 

[cottonweaver]

Trotterly #608

Just a tip for murder your girlfriend/boyfriend and you will get off: Choose a more-storey house and spread the fight before the murder on all floors and rooms, demolish all the facility, let some windows open, other windows closed, choose a time for the murder to happen after midnight and don't forget: make your single roommate (personnel) timely dependent on you.

Can't we just say that we can't possibly go to trial afterwards, can't afford top defence counsel fees and couldn't possibly do South African equivalent of Legal Aid?! LOL

I am beginning to feel "hard done by * " that should I find myself at court, I can't afford the £5000 + per hour / $8k required for a Defence Barrister of Roux's calibre.

It's all so very unfair in OP's world isn't it- outrageous that he has to drain his resources to fund his defence for killing his girlfriend.

As apparently ( linked a few pages back) he now only has the "shirt on his back" according to Roux/The Mirror! he ought to now rely on Legal Aid and the equivalent in SA of the Public Defender?

*aggrieved

 

[cottonweaver]

So we have both HoA filed now.

Do you have the link Pandax?

Otherwise I will have to "scout the internet" or just "use my mind" LOL

 

[Deleted member 102539]

eNCA ‏@eNCA 45 Min.Vor 45 Minuten
RT @karynmaughan: #OscarPistorius has denied claims he was assaulted in jail, according to correctional services officials.

-.-.-.-.-.-

If OP is released, this will be important to him perhaps ...

SABC News Online ‏@SABCNewsOnline 3 Min.Vor 3 Minuten
Mozambique has been officially declared "Landmine Free".

 

[cottonweaver]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Media-descends-on-Pretoria-prison-for-Pistorius-20150918

Pretoria - Camera crews, photographers and reporters milled around the Kgosi Mampuru II prison in Pretoria on Friday morning, in anticipation of the possible release of Paralympian Oscar Pistorius.

Journalists speculated over whether Pistorius would indeed be released on Friday; and if so, which prison entrance he would use - the front or the back.

A correctional services officer who asked not to be named told News24 that they had not been briefed about any special measures to take.

He said most prisoners used the main entrance to come in and out of the prison but it was possible that special provisions could be made for the athlete.

........

My BIB - Maybe anonymous officer hasn't been briefed about those details because it's simply not happening today?!

 

[cottonweaver]

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 9h9 hours ago
"#OscarPistorius parole review happening tomorrow. No official word on where, but we've been told Durban. His lawyers refused right to appear"

Does anyone know if lawyers actually have a right to attend the Review meetings? I've not heard that one before, regarding this case.
I have just re-read the CS document and I can't see it anywhere in there.


http://www.dcs.gov.za/docs/landing/Parole public pamphlet 2012 Eng.pdf


ie , as posted last month, his team have a right, post-decision to go to court over it afterwards.

Yes, assumption was correct re KMaughan's "refused right to appear", confirmed by today's Ulrich Roux tweet, whilst looking for a link to State's heads.
No 'right to appear' ever existed in the first place, although it has already added grist to the mill for OP's supporters in terms of unfair treatment/denial of his rights.

"Ulrich Roux ‏@ulrichroux 4h4 hours ago
#oscarpistorius should know by end of today if & when he will be released on parole. Legal reps never allowed in such a review"

 

[Mr Fossil]

Defence Appeal Heads of Argument

http://www.scribd.com/doc/281555460/Pistorius-HoA-14-09-2015-5#scribd

 

[Cherwell]

Barry Roux has told the Supreme Court of Appeal that OP cannot afford a new trial, saying it would be too long and complex.

Well, tough. Surely that's no argument against a retrial (should it come to that). He would just have to do what ordinary poor people do.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Louis Oelofse ‏@Loelof
Correction: A woman leaving #OscarPistorius uncle's house asks why media is outside saying "we know", "he is not being released immediately"

Xoli Mngambi ‏@Xoli_Mngambi
One of the occupants in the car remarked in Afrikaans, "... it's not gonna happen immediately". #OscarPistorius