Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[Fuskier]

I take it you're just playing devil's advocate? Otherwise I don't understand your confusion at OP shooting into a small cubicle while knowing a person was in there and rightfully being found guilty of murdering this person he shot 4 bullets into.

I persoanlly believe he's getting off very easy as I think there was a fight, she did take refuge from him in that toilet closet and he followed with his gun and killed her intentionally. I think there's plenty of evidence that this scenario is true and none for his version(s).

BIB My take on it.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Due to the bias you mention, is it possible that she might/could be allowed to refuse to be the Judge at sentencing or the NPA will advise that they want another Judge?

I honestly don't know Estelle. If I had to guess I'd say the NPA who represent the State would not be able to influence the Judiciary into asking for a different judge any more than Pistorius could. What is more doable is for Judge Masipa to excuse herself and allow another Judge to sentence him. I think she is too professional to opt for this though. When she was asked recently if she felt stigmatised over how she presided over the trial she brushed it off and said it was not a stigma if the oiks perceived justice hadn't pandered to their emotional outpourings. I'm paraphrasing of course but it gives a valuable insight into how she saw the wider publics reaction.

I think we have to accept she'll be there to sentence him despite the reservations most people feel after her previous debacle. I do think Justice Leach has restricted her somewhat though. She won't want it going back to the SCA again for yet another "shockingly" lenient sentence. This alone might make her the best person to sentence him?

 

[cottonweaver]

Due to the bias you mention, is it possible that she might/could be allowed to refuse to be the Judge at sentencing or the NPA will advise that they want another Judge?

Quoting 44 Allan How about she's on busy shift, all through January sales to February, at a 24 hr Asda and can't fit it into her schedule :facepalm: Imagine meeting her at the check out- gave me a laugh Allan.

Or, she can always phone OP and ask him if can she borrow his clinical manuals on depression, feign PTSD and go on long term sick from her judicial post!

I trust that Uncle Arnold has removed all prescription meds from the house.......

 

[Estelle]

Well, it has been a while since I last posted, but here goes.....

Judge Leach nipped that in the Bud by saying it would not be in the Public interest. In addition, how could some of the witnesses give unbiased accounts, following how much information was divulged in the trial?

Masipa made a complete Horlicks of the judgement and SA Justice was in a hole. I think the five judges have done as much to rectify that as possible, given the position they were in.

My thoughts, like others on here, is that he is going to run for it.

BBM

I think that Roux and Uncle Arnold will have to handle OP with kid gloves now to stop him "making a run for it" or if his feelings of suicide are true, to have him observed 24/7. They will also have to convince him that Masipa will not impose a heavy prison sentence or just increase his home arrest time. Otherwise, he has nothing to lose.

I can just see the headlines in the MSM before Tuesday eg.

OSCAR IS MISSING (OR HAS SUICIDED AT 3AM THIS MORNING)

He would have to do this before Tuesday as he could be refused bail.

 

[soozieqtips]

I think his bleating should be kept out of the media until after sentencing. No one wants to hear a murderer whining that they don't like prison.

 

[cottonweaver]

Not shocked (as that is what happens apparently) but extremely dubious about what type of sentence she will impose and what tricks the Defence will come up with to get her sympathy.

posters have listed upthread some of the concessions he may get due to mitigation factors , that his team will fight hard for.
but when Masipa ( sadly ) has to re-sentence she has to factor in the Appeal judgment now.

So on the positive side,State-side...we have aggravating factors - such as :
- untruthful witness ( in judgement) leading the court in a merry dance
- total fail on PPD on all the counts including his gun training
- excessive use of force etc. , recklessly persisted in his conduct
- lack of remorse demonstrated by lying plus subsequent appeal application made by him ( it will be submitted by mid December,presumably)

What else folks?

As Defence can submit new evidence on mitigating factors, what about the State, what do you want them to submit further?

This is one of the basic sheets on sentencing a poster linked here recently
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/sentencing-guidelines/southafrica.php#Introduction

It notes in the box , that for the 15 yr min guideline, there is no immediate reduction for first time offence.
Is Tasha's conviction on same date but based on earlier event allowable as the first conviction?:thinking:

 

[lithgow1]

I can't speak for mhiform, but I know how I interpreted her post, and it seems to be different than how you did.

None of us use the best possible words all of the time or say things exactly right all of the time (or ever)

I read "skeletons in the closet" in the overall context of the rest of what was being said, and what I understood (and agreed with) is that there is nothing wrong with saying Reeva was no doubt an imperfect human being, as we all are.

I do think it robs victims of their humanity to be considered after the fact as somehow infallible, and I don't see what is wrong about discussing their vulnerabilities -- in context.

That opinion is definitely influenced by the many months I've spent delving into the writings and online communications of another victim (Travis Alexander). Coming to understand how and why he was vulnerable to the ex-girlfriend who ultimately killed him and posting about/discussing those vulnerabilities in that context is in no way disrespectful of him as a person or as a victim.

If anything, it has done the opposite....made the victim entirely real and understandable, and his murder all the more sad. And more certain still, having that discussion in no way whatsoever is an indication of support for his killer or a lack of support for the victim's family.

As I said, I can't speak for that poster, but if that is what s/he was trying to say then I can -and am- speaking up in support for the right to say it.

So would you agree that Travis Alexander, though IMO essentially a decent person, was a judgemental hypocrite when it came to women, sex and religion? IMO he contributed to his own murder much more than Reeva Steenkamp is likely to have done, by his inability to refuse the sex Arias offered and being too naive to realise just how dangerous she was. Also, you may not be aware that the poster you are defending has called Reeva a failed model who latched onto a star and has vigorously supported Pistorius. As you say he/she has the right to comment as they see fit but as I am sure you understand, ones about a murder victim being a failed model are understandbly not going to get much support on this forum.

 

[Marfa Lights]

BBM

I think that Roux and Uncle Arnold will have to handle OP with kid gloves now to stop him "making a run for it" or if his feelings of suicide are true, to have him observed 24/7. They will also have to convince him that Masipa will not impose a heavy prison sentence or just increase his home arrest time. Otherwise, he has nothing to lose.

I can just see the headlines in the MSM before Tuesday eg.

OSCAR IS MISSING (OR HAS SUICIDED AT 3AM THIS MORNING)

He would have to do this before Tuesday as he could be refused bail.

I feel like calling for a welfare check on Oscar this evening.

I don't think he'll be around for Tuesday's bail hearing.

 

[cottonweaver]

remorse defined in SCA case law

"There is, moreover, a chasm between regret and remorse. Many accused persons might well regret their conduct, but that does not without more translate to genuine remorse. Remorse is a gnawing pain of conscience for the plight of another. Thus genuine contrition can only come from an appreciation and acknowledgement of the extent of one's error.

Whether the offender is sincerely remorseful, and not simply feeling sorry for himself or herself at having been caught, is a factual question. It is to the surrounding actions of the accused, rather than what he says in court, that one should rather look. In order for the remorse to be a valid consideration, the penitence must be sincere and the accused must take the court fully into his or her confidence. Until and unless that happens, the genuineness of the contrition alleged to exist cannot be determined.

After all, before a court can find that an accused person is genuinely remorseful, it needs to have a proper appreciation of, inter alia: what motivated the accused to commit the deed; what has since provoked his or her change of heart; and whether he or she does indeed have a true appreciation of the consequences of those actions.’


http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2015/187.pdf

ETA An incidental link is that Lerena tells us that OP is off women as he still loves Reeva!!! Something he will need to keep shoring up until all his judicial opportunities are used up.

 

[soozieqtips]

So would you agree that Travis Alexander, though IMO essentially a decent person, was a judgemental hypocrite when it came to women, sex and religion? IMO he contributed to his own murder much more than Reeva Steenkamp is likely to have done, by his inability to refuse the sex Arias offered and being too naive to realise just how dangerous she was. Also, you may not be aware that the poster you are defending has called Reeva a failed model who latched onto a star and has vigorously supported Pistorius. As you say he/she has the right to comment as they see fit but as I am sure you understand, ones about a murder victim being a failed model are understandbly not going to get much support on this forum.

BIB - I think that was less about 'skeletons in the closet' and more of an unjustified and personal dig at Reeva. Still, the killer finally got what he deserved. The correct label of convicted murderer. How the mighty have fallen. Anyway, hope you're having a nice vacation!!!

 

[cottonweaver]

substantial and compelling

"Unless there are, and can be seen to be, truly convincing reasons for a different response, the crimes in question are therefore required to elicit a severe, standardised and consistent response from the courts. The specified sentences are not to be departed from lightly and for flimsy reasons. Speculative hypotheses favourable to the offender, undue sympathy, aversion to imprisoning first offenders, personal doubts as to the efficacy of the policy underlying the legislation, and marginal differences in personal circumstances or degrees of participation between co-offenders are to be excluded."

for all murder types “account must be taken of the fact that crime of that particular kind has been singled out for severe punishment “
http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2001/30.html
state vs malgas

 

[cottonweaver]

I feel like calling for a welfare check on Oscar this evening.

I don't think he'll be around for Tuesday's bail hearing.

Yes you would think that CS monitors would make his pad a priority visit, hadn't thought about that until Estelle pointed it out.

Naturally I think he would only fake an attempt to use this later as mitigation. (Kiddie paracetamol only!)

 

[Marfa Lights]

substantial and compelling

"Unless there are, and can be seen to be, truly convincing reasons for a different response, the crimes in question are therefore required to elicit a severe, standardised and consistent response from the courts. The specified sentences are not to be departed from lightly and for flimsy reasons. Speculative hypotheses favourable to the offender, undue sympathy, aversion to imprisoning first offenders, personal doubts as to the efficacy of the policy underlying the legislation, and marginal differences in personal circumstances or degrees of participation between co-offenders are to be excluded."

for all murder types “account must be taken of the fact that crime of that particular kind has been singled out for severe punishment “
http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2001/30.html
state vs malgas

Well, God forbid she lets the assessor, du Toit, help her with sentencing.

 

[jilly]

That's not even going into the background of the day. OP's "babyshoes" call minutes before getting home that evening, their ongoing conversations that day about RS leaving by such and such a time with her delays while trying to finish her speech(seemed to me like she was fishing for OP to invite her to do something special for either that night or the next day) and laundry and OP's seemingly offhand comeback that she could stay if she liked with her finally responding to the effect that no worries don't put yourself out she'd go.

All this the night before their first Valentine Day where they hadn't made any plans to spend it together and then no testimony on how they spent any intimate time together(the only sexual activity reported was that someone had been looking at *advertiser censored* sites while OP was in the bath and RS cooking dinner), but instead spent the evening with OP allegedly advising RS about her upcoming modelling contract and then looking at vehicles on their ipads/laptops while having a cuppa ... the only somewhat intimate act they apparently shared was RS calling him to come and brush his teeth at bedtime.

Ya know......I am so glad that you and Tortoise have addressed this. I totally agree with both of you.

Have to now say that when I first read about *advertiser censored* being looked up, on the eve of VDay with his sweetheart, my eyebrows went up. I brushed it off, thinking that perhaps Oscar may have had a performance problem.

Add in his "off hand come back that she could stay if she liked". That's kind of a cool statement imo. In retrospect, it sounds like he was already stewing about something.

We're supposed to believe that Oscar "advised" Reeva about her upcoming modelling contract. That's even suspect to me because, I've come to believe that Oscar, imo, is a control freak and a liar.

Then we have the inside out jeans. I recall June Steenkamp saying that Reeva was a meticulously neat person and would never have left her jeans like that. I don't think that it's unrealistic to think that Oscar, in a rage, pulled them off of her. We know he's short tempered and a control freak. The best defense is an offense, type of guy.

We don't know what happened that nite, but, we've come to know Oscar's dark side.

I just wish that Reeva had called the police when she ran for refuge in the cubicle, but, sad to say, it looks like she continued to give him the benefit of the doubt until her demise.

 

[Marfa Lights]

N

Yes you would think that CS monitors would make his pad a priority visit, hadn't thought about that until Estelle pointed it out.

Naturally I think he would only fake an attempt to use this later as mitigation. (Kiddie paracetamol only!)

I think he'll be packing his bags!

 

[soozieqtips]

remorse defined in SCA case law

"There is, moreover, a chasm between regret and remorse. Many accused persons might well regret their conduct, but that does not without more translate to genuine remorse. Remorse is a gnawing pain of conscience for the plight of another. Thus genuine contrition can only come from an appreciation and acknowledgement of the extent of one's error.

Whether the offender is sincerely remorseful, and not simply feeling sorry for himself or herself at having been caught, is a factual question. It is to the surrounding actions of the accused, rather than what he says in court, that one should rather look. In order for the remorse to be a valid consideration, the penitence must be sincere and the accused must take the court fully into his or her confidence. Until and unless that happens, the genuineness of the contrition alleged to exist cannot be determined.

After all, before a court can find that an accused person is genuinely remorseful, it needs to have a proper appreciation of, inter alia: what motivated the accused to commit the deed; what has since provoked his or her change of heart; and whether he or she does indeed have a true appreciation of the consequences of those actions.’


http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2015/187.pdf

Thanks for that. Most of us have always thought that OP never showed genuine remorse for what he did to Reeva or for what he took away from her family. As June said: "We have to live without her every day." The reason he can't show remorse IMO is because there's only room for anger at the injustice of him, an icon, an idol, being stuck in a common prison with other common prisoners. Reeva is the reason he's in this position and I think he resents her immensely for it.

 

[Madeleine74]

I don't think he shot "in cold blood" at all. I think there was an argument that escalated, she took shelter in the toilet, he lost his temper and fired at her through the door. I've no doubt he regretted it at once, but he should have told the truth from the start.

1 shot could be argued as 'oops I lost my head there.' FOUR shots with a pause in between is in cold blood, IMO. It was intended and it was premeditated. He knew firing that weapon would likely kill whoever was in that loo and he made the decision to fire not once, not twice, but 4 times.

 

[soozieqtips]

ETA An incidental link is that Lerena tells us that OP is off women as he still loves Reeva!!! Something he will need to keep shoring up until all his judicial opportunities are used up.

~snipped~

BIB Sure he's off women and still loves Reeva. That's why he was hitting on lookalikes soon after he murdered her, forgot her birthday (when he was going to open her V'Day's card) and then found a new g/friend while awaiting his trial for murder. That's also why he got immediate medical assistance for Reeva. Oh wait. He didn't.

 

[cottonweaver]

Well, God forbid she lets the assessor, du Toit, help her with sentencing.

It's interesting that I read this week ( sadly can't remember where- SA commentator )who has a book in production about the case that more is going to come out about Mdu Toit's role in this. )

Anyway I don't remember there being assessors during sentencing, can you recall.

Can't find the sentencing hearing transcripts at the moment. HAS ANYONE GOT A LINK? tia

 

[cottonweaver]

here is masipa on video defending her OP judgement/criticisms - 2 mins long

[video=youtube;p9PPaapMnzQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PPaapMnzQ[/video]