PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

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Wendell Courtney warned the agencies of liability concerns in June 98, per Schultz GJ testimony he (Courtney) "gave them his blessings". By mid October 1998, this was already full blown damage control.

But from October 98 until MIke McQueary witnessed Sandusky sexaully assaulting a boy in 2001, Sandusky had free reign of the Lasch Building. That was a terrible job of damage control.

Now. if you saying that the Lasch Building was part of Joe Pa's fiefdom, and he completely disregarded the concerns of Wendall Courtney and Ray Gricar, I would believe that. Nevertheless, confirmation of what was discussed in the October 98 meeting is needed.
 
RFG was not known to be on any kind of a mission.

I believe he was on a mission...for starters, I think he went out there to destroy his laptop hard drive. There may be more we just don't know about, but destroying the laptop, IMO was near the top of the list.
 
I believe he was on a mission...for starters, I think he went out there to destroy his laptop hard drive. There may be more we just don't know about, but destroying the laptop, IMO was near the top of the list.



Why Lewisburg? Why there, with people around? Why not, for instance, smash it up and throw it in a quarry, or stop on bridges, at night, and chuck the hard drive and lap top far from each other? Then go home. No doubt there is more that we don't know about!
 
Why Lewisburg? Why there, with people around? Why not, for instance, smash it up and throw it in a quarry, or stop on bridges, at night, and chuck the hard drive and lap top far from each other? Then go home. No doubt there is more that we don't know about!

Assuming that RFG had been planning to come back:

RFG was going to destroy the drive. He was going to report it destroyed in an accident and reimburse the county.

He drives to Lewisburg and tosses the drive. After doing so, he realizes that his story won't make too much sense if just the drive is missing. He also realizes that there is an ID label on it and, if found in a dumpster or something, it could be returned to the county, minus the drive. There would be questions.

RFG does drive across the bridge, looking for a place to drop it, and decides he can toss it from the car, if he slows down. He does that.

Lewisburg is 50 miles from home and it is a place where he probably won't be recognized.
 
I believe he was on a mission...for starters, I think he went out there to destroy his laptop hard drive. There may be more we just don't know about, but destroying the laptop, IMO was near the top of the list.

I agree that RFG tossed the drive and probably the laptop, but it might have been incidental to the purpose of his trip.

He could have thought, **I'm going to be Lewisburg anyhow, so I'll toss the laptop while I'm there.**
 
Have a quick question.

From the new posts --- I am getting the impression that there actually may be some good evidence, well not evidence evidence, but the feeling that RG's disappearance may actually have something to do with the Sandusky case?
That is if I'm reading what you' al have been bantering back and forth about correctly.

I found this New York Times on-line article dated November 16, 2011 interesting and helpful as far as the timeline goes of who supposedly knew what and when. Basically a cliff note version of the GJ report. Especially this:

"Ultimately, the district attorney decided against taking the case to trial, a decision that, years later, the attorney general’s investigators could well understand. According to people with knowledge of the current Sandusky case, the district attorney’s decision in 1998 was a close call, even with the evidence the campus police had."
source:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/s...ed-sandusky-investigators.html?pagewanted=all
 
I agree that RFG tossed the drive and probably the laptop, but it might have been incidental to the purpose of his trip.

He could have thought, **I'm going to be Lewisburg anyhow, so I'll toss the laptop while I'm there.**

"**I'm going to Lewisburg anyhow...**" Do you think Lewisburg, itself, is important to RFG's disappearance?

Something happened, either by choice, or bad happenstance because he chose to go Lewisburg? I think what I'm trying to ask is: Was Lewisburg chosen for a reason, in your opinion?
 
Snipped for space:

Have a quick question.

From the new posts --- I am getting the impression that there actually may be some good evidence, well not evidence evidence, but the feeling that RG's disappearance may actually have something to do with the Sandusky case?
That is if I'm reading what you' al have been bantering back and forth about correctly.

I found this New York Times on-line article dated November 16, 2011 interesting and helpful as far as the timeline goes of who supposedly knew what and when. Basically a cliff note version of the GJ report. Especially this:


source:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/s...ed-sandusky-investigators.html?pagewanted=all

A lot has come out since that article was written:

1. RFG removed the lead person on child abuse in the office from the case, JKA. There were reports of "excessive disagreements." JKA was not even kept on as second chair; she was excluded.

2. RFG never interviewed Victim 6, nor could I find any reference that anyone from the DA's Office did interview Victim 6.

3. RFG closed the case prior to Sandusky being interviewed by LE or DPW. (While DPW's investigation was separate and not in any way binding of the DA's Office, no one can use even the weak excuse **DPW didn't find anything, so we didn't go forward.**)

4. RFG declined to follow the recommendation to the investigating officer, Schreffler, which was to prosecute.

None of those things were known on 11/17/11. It was known that RFG had made his decision prior to DPW making its determination.

Even at that time, we know that there was a second victim, B. K. not available in 2011-12 (he's in the military). In that regard, the 1998 case was stronger in 1998 than it was in 2012. The judge upheld all charges relating to Victim 6, and Sandusky was convicted of the felony and 2 misdemeanors relating to Victim 6. He was acquitted on 1 misdemeanor.

Edited to add: Both Sloane and JKA were involved at some stage in this case; JKA's involvement was brief and only at the initial part of the case. Both have expressed a general admiration for RFG, with Sloane having a deep friendship with RFG on top of that. Neither one has ever said **Ray didn't have enough evidence to charge Sandusky.**
 
"**I'm going to Lewisburg anyhow...**" Do you think Lewisburg, itself, is important to RFG's disappearance?

Yes, though I don't think it tells us what happened to him.

This was written more than 5 years ago, but it hasn't changed: http://www.centredaily.com/2009/02/08/2397039/the-media-markets-and-geography.html

Something happened, either by choice, or bad happenstance because he chose to go Lewisburg? I think what I'm trying to ask is: Was Lewisburg chosen for a reason, in your opinion?

There are some similarities between the appearance of Lewisburg and Hamilton, OH the site Roy Gricar's suicide. However, there are some differences as well. http://www.centredaily.com/2009/10/22/2396469/how-similar.html

Yes, I think Lewisburg was RFG's choice, or at least a mutual choice, and quite deliberate.
 
Snipped for space:



A lot has come out since that article was written:

1. RFG removed the lead person on child abuse in the office from the case, JKA. There were reports of "excessive disagreements." JKA was not even kept on as second chair; she was excluded.

2. RFG never interviewed Victim 6, nor could I find any reference that anyone from the DA's Office did interview Victim 6.

3. RFG closed the case prior to Sandusky being interviewed by LE or DPW. (While DPW's investigation was separate and not in any way binding of the DA's Office, no one can use even the weak excuse **DPW didn't find anything, so we didn't go forward.**)

4. RFG declined to follow the recommendation to the investigating officer, Schreffler, which was to prosecute.

None of those things were known on 11/17/11. It was known that RFG had made his decision prior to DPW making its determination.

Even at that time, we know that there was a second victim, B. K. not available in 2011-12 (he's in the military). In that regard, the 1998 case was stronger in 1998 than it was in 2012. The judge upheld all charges relating to Victim 6, and Sandusky was convicted of the felony and 2 misdemeanors relating to Victim 6. He was acquitted on 1 misdemeanor.

Edited to add: Both Sloane and JKA were involved at some stage in this case; JKA's involvement was brief and only at the initial part of the case. Both have expressed a general admiration for RFG, with Sloane having a deep friendship with RFG on top of that. Neither one has ever said **Ray didn't have enough evidence to charge Sandusky.**

Several pages back, I expressed my wish that someone will do a serious journalistic piece on the 98 investigation. A couple of days ago the NY Times published a story on the police investigation into the rape allegation against current Florida State quarterback, Jameis Winston. The author, Walt Bogdanich, has won 3 Pulitizer Prizes for investigative journalism, so it's no surprise the article is fantastic.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html?_r=0

Here are the closing two paragraphs:

"A decade before the Winston case, the inspector general found that Florida State had violated its policy when the athletic department failed to inform the campus police of a rape accusation against one of its standout football players. Mr. Ruiz, the former prosecutor who handled the case for the state attorney’s office, recalled that the coach at the time, the revered Bobby Bowden, attempted to convince him that a crime had not occurred. A jury eventually acquitted the player.

'I learned quickly what football meant in the South,” said Mr. Ruiz, who grew up in New York State. “Clearly, it meant a lot. And with respect to this case I learned that keeping players on the field was a priority.'”


Of course, football isn't only important in the South; it's also important in other parts of the country, including State College, PA.

RFG was an outsider and a non-football fan; however, by 1998, he surely knew what PSU football meant to the people of Centre County. Perhaps he knew the chances of securing a verdict of guilty were slim to none and he wanted to the spare the victim the ordeal of testifying and the possibility of public scorn.

Even if that's the case, however, it's still troubling that RFG seemed so incurious about the validity of the accusation. I don't know what to make of that lack of curiosity.
 
My question is why PSU would hire as its new president the former president of FSU, where cover-ups of rape may have occurred to protect the football program at FSU? Why take the chance that Barron may eventually be accused of wrong-doing at FSU, adding yet another blemish to PSU's reputation? Was Barron really a good choice?

Anyway, I came here to post a link to a series of Daily Collegian articles involving Ray Gricar, which go from 1987 to the present, in chronological order. I thought it was interesting to see what was happening with Gricar in 1998 and 2001. There are also articles from when he first went missing all the way to the present. I came across this while I was looking for early articles about his disappearance, and was happy to find some, because I didn't know about Gricar until I came across the mention of the 10/98 meeting at Lasch after the Sandusky mess came to light. So I missed all of the early Gricar coverage. I'm still looking at the articles, but here's the link for all who are interested:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/search...tml&s=start_time&sd=desc&app[0]=editorial&o=0
 
Assuming that RFG had been planning to come back:

RFG was going to destroy the drive. He was going to report it destroyed in an accident and reimburse the county.

He drives to Lewisburg and tosses the drive. After doing so, he realizes that his story won't make too much sense if just the drive is missing. He also realizes that there is an ID label on it and, if found in a dumpster or something, it could be returned to the county, minus the drive. There would be questions.

RFG does drive across the bridge, looking for a place to drop it, and decides he can toss it from the car, if he slows down. He does that.

Lewisburg is 50 miles from home and it is a place where he probably won't be recognized.

Why destroy the computer itself at all? He could have destroyed the hard drive and replaced it with a new one, and returned the whole thing to the county good as new.

Destroying the computer itself only makes sense if he plans on disappearing and doesn't want the IP address traced.

I'm not saying that's what I believe, because what I believe changes with the day. I'm just wondering if there is any other rationale for destroying the computer itself.
 
Why destroy the computer itself at all? He could have destroyed the hard drive and replaced it with a new one, and returned the whole thing to the county good as new.

Destroying the computer itself only makes sense if he plans on disappearing and doesn't want the IP address traced.

I'm not saying that's what I believe, because what I believe changes with the day. I'm just wondering if there is any other rationale for destroying the computer itself.

I am not wedded to a theory.

It is possible that RFG wanted to report the laptop destroyed or lost and destroyed. He tosses the drive and then realizes that he now has a computer without a drive. He really can't claim that the drive just slipped out.

Under that scenario, he would be planning to return.

If he wasn't planning to return, no one would know that the drive was removed until they found the laptop. So, even if it was found the first week, they'd still be looking for the drive. They might think it fell out and would be looking in the wrong place.
 
Snipped


Of course, football isn't only important in the South; it's also important in other parts of the country, including State College, PA.

RFG was an outsider and a non-football fan; however, by 1998, he surely knew what PSU football meant to the people of Centre County. Perhaps he knew the chances of securing a verdict of guilty were slim to none and he wanted to the spare the victim the ordeal of testifying and the possibility of public scorn.

Even if that's the case, however, it's still troubling that RFG seemed so incurious about the validity of the accusation. I don't know what to make of that lack of curiosity.

I do think it is probable that RFG didn't prosecute because it would have been politically damaging. :( I'm not happy about that.

He might have thought that PSU would handle it and Sandusky had been warned. It also, bluntly, was not rape or direct contact with the genitalia.
 
Of course, football isn't only important in the South; it's also important in other parts of the country, including State College, PA.

RFG was an outsider and a non-football fan; however, by 1998, he surely knew what PSU football meant to the people of Centre County. Perhaps he knew the chances of securing a verdict of guilty were slim to none and he wanted to the spare the victim the ordeal of testifying and the possibility of public scorn.
Even if that's the case, however, it's still troubling that RFG seemed so incurious about the validity of the accusation. I don't know what to make of that lack of curiosity.

BBM and shorten for clarity.

This is exactly what I have been thinking.

Heck, even a rape case with an adult who has a "pristine background" is a long and hard case today. If the perpetrator has a record or other unsavory background that makes it a bit easier for the prosecution. Defense attorneys always put the victim threw h3!! and going to court requires an emotionally strong person to be able to withstand having their entire life put under a magnifying glass and torn apart.

Now think of that in context with a child and re-wind back to 1998. One of the hardest things to do is not put today’s values and perceptions about who can be a child abuser onto the past. 1998 was, in regards to acceptance of who could do such a thing, didn’t go much beyond the stereotype that a pedophile was that scurvy looking guy who lived in his mother’s basement. Now, we all known, or at least most do, that they also include that great teacher, that nice man (even women) who lives on the corner, or your churches priest, and yes even a popular and beloved coach.

Today, perceptions about child abuse are much different than they were in 1998. With the popular Sandusky and the god like worship of anything football at Penn State; that child and his mother would have been torn to shreds and vilified beyond belief.

Yes, there were laws on the books that gave RG grounds to prosecute, but he would have had to still deal with the people and I believe it was his understanding of how “the people” and "their perceptions" of what child abuse is along with the lack of understanding how a victim is “groomed” that ultimately drove his decision not to take this case to court.

There also may have been the feeling that Sandusky himself, having been questioned about his actions with this child, would have recognized the writing on the wall, and would not dare to continue this behavior.

My opinion is that Penn State officials should have been accountable from that time forward to insure that Sandusky would no longer have access to children again, at least with anything to do with the college or affiliate programs. I won’t even go into my thoughts on the officials at Second Mile.

Here is more food for thought.

Freeh Report on the Child Abuse at Penn State
Source: http://progress.psu.edu/assets/content/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf
Page 19 is where time line starts
Page 39 is the report on the 1998 investigation that would include RG

This stood out to me: Page 46 of pdf.
D. Late May 1998: District Attorney’s Decision to Not Prosecute Sandusky
"Sometime between May 27, 1998 and June 1, 1998, the local District Attorney declined to prosecute Sandusky for his actions with the boy in the shower in the Lasch Building on May 3, 1998. A senior administrator of a local victim resource center familiar with the 1998 incident said the case against Sandusky was “severely hampered” by Seasock’s report."

Local victim resource center ????
Is that the Centre County Victim Advocate Office were PF worked? Who would have been the senior administrator in 1998? Also this report does not make it clear if they are referencing the 1998 time period or current time period regarding the senior admin.

Further down on page 46
E. June 1, 1998 University Police Speak with Sandusky
"No notes or records reflect that Schreffler or Lauro consulted with the District Attorney during or after the interview" [referring to the June 1, 1998 interview with Sandusky]

Page 49
"Harmon (of the University Police) provided an update to Schultz on May 8, 1998 that Lauro indicated that it was his intent to have a psychologist who specializes in child abuse interview the children."

To me it looks like the report of Counselor Seasock, who had a contract to provide counseling services with Centre County Children and Youth Services (CYS) and who later became an independent contractor under the employ of Penn State in 2000 and the determination by Lauro with the Department of Public Welfare (DPW) were the two main reasons that RG did not take any further action.

I have to wonder why a CYS person was used to do the evaluation in the first place, since that in itself should have been a conflict of interest, especially since CYS had a contract with 2nd Mile and the actions in question involved Sandusky, the founder of 2nd Mile.

That brings me to the question of why Seasock was the one who was assigned to this case to begin with. I think it is important to note that he was not a psychologist nor did he have any special training in child abuse. Chambers, an actual psychologist who was brought in by the mother of Victim #6 was qualified, but Seasock’s report was given more weight. Why?

It appears that in the end it was Seasock’s report and the fact the Lauro did not bring up any question in regard to his professional ability to properly make an evaluation that shut down any further investigation into the allegations. This then had a direct impact on RG not taking the case any further.
 
Snipped

Today, perceptions about child abuse are much different than they were in 1998. With the popular Sandusky and the god like worship of anything football at Penn State; that child and his mother would have been torn to shreds and vilified beyond belief.

I agree that there would have been a cost, but it would have been a political one for RFG. As today anonymity of the victim would be maintained.

Also remember that there was a second victim that was known to LE at the time.

There also may have been the feeling that Sandusky himself, having been questioned about his actions with this child, would have recognized the writing on the wall, and would not dare to continue this behavior.

That is possible

Here is more food for thought.

Freeh Report on the Child Abuse at Penn State
Source: http://progress.psu.edu/assets/content/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf
Page 19 is where time line starts
Page 39 is the report on the 1998 investigation that would include RG

This stood out to me: Page 46 of pdf.
D. Late May 1998: District Attorney’s Decision to Not Prosecute Sandusky
"Sometime between May 27, 1998 and June 1, 1998, the local District Attorney declined to prosecute Sandusky for his actions with the boy in the shower in the Lasch Building on May 3, 1998. A senior administrator of a local victim resource center familiar with the 1998 incident said the case against Sandusky was “severely hampered” by Seasock’s report."

The Sesack and Chambers Reports were not admissible as evidence in 1998 (and were not until 2012). The could testify as fact witnesses, but not as experts. http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/02/are_pennsylvanias_child-abuse.html

If Gricar used either it would be virtual legal malpractice. Same with a defense attorney.

Is that the Centre County Victim Advocate Office were PF worked? Who would have been the senior administrator in 1998? Also this report does not make it clear if they are referencing the 1998 time period or current time period regarding the senior admin.

PEF was a Witness/Victim Advocate with the DA's Office, not with a resource center. This group would have had no involvement with the 1998 case.

Further down on page 46
E. June 1, 1998 University Police Speak with Sandusky
"No notes or records reflect that Schreffler or Lauro consulted with the District Attorney during or after the interview" [referring to the June 1, 1998 interview with Sandusky]

Page 49
"Harmon (of the University Police) provided an update to Schultz on May 8, 1998 that Lauro indicated that it was his intent to have a psychologist who specializes in child abuse interview the children."

Schreffler testified that he talked to RFG before and after the Sandusky interview.

Lauro claims to have never seen the Chambers or the Seasock Reports.
 
Snipped:

Anyway, I came here to post a link to a series of Daily Collegian articles involving Ray Gricar, which go from 1987 to the present, in chronological order. I thought it was interesting to see what was happening with Gricar in 1998 and 2001. There are also articles from when he first went missing all the way to the present. I came across this while I was looking for early articles about his disappearance, and was happy to find some, because I didn't know about Gricar until I came across the mention of the 10/98 meeting at Lasch after the Sandusky mess came to light. So I missed all of the early Gricar coverage. I'm still looking at the articles, but here's the link for all who are interested:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/search...tml&s=start_time&sd=desc&app[0]=editorial&o=0

Interesting, the "Penn State sniper" case was being settled in late May, and RFG took the Sandusky case away from Arnold in early May.

Robbins, the sniper, was probably the biggest case RFG ever prosecuted, and best known case, prior to Sandusky: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_a1f69d68-0727-5027-bc38-0ed15a6db836.html
 
I am not wedded to a theory.

It is possible that RFG wanted to report the laptop destroyed or lost and destroyed. He tosses the drive and then realizes that he now has a computer without a drive. He really can't claim that the drive just slipped out.

Under that scenario, he would be planning to return.

And then what happened? Did someone murder him and dispose of his body before he could return? That seems unlikely and highly coincidental. I would almost find it more believable to say he fell into the river while he was getting rid of the computer.

If he wasn't planning to return, no one would know that the drive was removed until they found the laptop. So, even if it was found the first week, they'd still be looking for the drive. They might think it fell out and would be looking in the wrong place.

He had no plans on returning. That's a simple and logical explanation.

I have a difficult time getting around the wiping of the hard drive and the disposal of the computer when I imagine foul play scenarios. Sure, I can fathom several scenarios that include both, but they are highly improbable.
 
And then what happened? Did someone murder him and dispose of his body before he could return? That seems unlikely and highly coincidental. I would almost find it more believable to say he fell into the river while he was getting rid of the computer.

In this scenario, RFG was planning to meet someone in Lewisburg about mid afternoon. He has wanted to make sure that the data on the laptop never sees the light of day, to the point asking a defense attorney about how to get rid of it. He decides that he'll get down there around lunchtime and tosses the drive, probably around 1:00-1:30 PM. He may get rid of his laptop at the same time or later.

In any event, he meets the person around 2-3 PM.

Not the most likely possibility, but far from impossible.


He had no plans on returning. That's a simple and logical explanation.

I have a difficult time getting around the wiping of the hard drive and the disposal of the computer when I imagine foul play scenarios. Sure, I can fathom several scenarios that include both, but they are highly improbable.

Possibly he wanted to destroy his laptop before walking away or committing suicide, but it might have been coincidental. I would not rule out coincidence, especially since he wanted to get rid of the data for a long time.
 
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