PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[JaimeSommers]

I'd still be interested in your impressions.

Before I answer, can you remind me, please, how many people said they saw him and where he was in the building when seen (if that's known)?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Before I answer, can you remind me, please, how many people said they saw him and where he was in the building when seen (if that's known)?

Okay, from what has been reported:

4/15/05 Lewisburg

Noon to 1:30 PM, 3-4 across from the Packwood House (Water Street, about two blocks down). He drove the Mini, but got out.

4:00 PM-5:00 PM McKnight's Witness saw RFG heading south on Route 15, turning onto River Road (which becomes Water Street)

5:00 PM-5:30 PM 2-3 People saw him moving the Mini Cooper in the parking lot in the SoS,

"Evening" two people saw him in the SoS with the woman.

4/16/05 Lewisburg

Two waitresses at the diner in the SoS saw him between 11:30 PM and Noon. Bennett saw him at Noon someplace in the SoS.

That has been what is reported in the press, but I'm heard there were others on 4/16.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Okay, from what has been reported:

4/15/05 Lewisburg

Noon to 1:30 PM, 3-4 across from the Packwood House (Water Street, about two blocks down). He drove the Mini, but got out.

4:00 PM-5:00 PM McKnight's Witness saw RFG heading south on Route 15, turning onto River Road (which becomes Water Street)

5:00 PM-5:30 PM 2-3 People saw him moving the Mini Cooper in the parking lot in the SoS,

"Evening" two people saw him in the SoS with the woman.

4/16/05 Lewisburg

Two waitresses at the diner in the SoS saw him between 11:30 PM and Noon. Bennett saw him at Noon someplace in the SoS.

That has been what is reported in the press, but I'm heard there were others on 4/16.

BBM ... You probably already know this, but Fridays are the only days on which the SoS is open until 8:00 p.m.; otherwise, it closes at 5:00 p.m. (April 15, 2005, was a Friday.)

I feel like I have little to add given that pretty much everyone has visited the SoS at some point in the last almost ten years. I go there annually with friends as part of a Christmas shopping road trip. (We live an hour away, very close to Bellefonte. I was called several times to sit in jury pools for trials tried by Ray and his team, one of whom is a former neighbor.)

Anyway, as you already know, the SoS is huge and like a labyrinth. Every time I've been in there since 2005, I've facetiously said that Ray could have crawled into a space somewhere in the basement and died and no one would ever know it. Lots of twists and turns and pockets.

The restaurant sits on the main floor, as you know, and is open right onto the main walkway, so I don't doubt waitresses could have seen Ray walking by. You can see everyone who goes by from the restaurant.

It's not the SoS that piques my interest as much as its close proximity to the bridge over the river. Walk straight along the right side of the SoS and you're at the bridge. If I'm remembering correctly -- and I believe I am because my friends and I talk about it every year -- close to the underside of the bridge is an island area. As I've said before, not enough has been done to search that area.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

It's not the SoS that piques my interest as much as its close proximity to the bridge over the river. Walk straight along the right side of the SoS and you're at the bridge. If I'm remembering correctly -- and I believe I am because my friends and I talk about it every year -- close to the underside of the bridge is an island area. As I've said before, not enough has been done to search that area.

Two bridges. There is an old railroad bridge behind and to the south of the SoS. The tracks use to cross Water Street just below St. John Street. It is blocked, but someone, in theory, could climb over it. The highway bridge, with a walkaway, is 2 to 2 1/2 blocks south of the SoS.

Thanks for the description.

As for Saturday, based on what has been reported, I still have my doubts that it was RFG. People that I've talked with that have detailed knowledge of the investigation do not have doubts.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Respectfully snipped.



Two bridges. There is an old railroad bridge behind and to the south of the SoS. The tracks use to cross Water Street just below St. John Street. It is blocked, but someone, in theory, could climb over it. The highway bridge, with a walkaway, is 2 to 2 1/2 blocks south of the SoS.

Thanks for the description.

As for Saturday, based on what has been reported, I still have my doubts that it was RFG. People that I've talked with that have detailed knowledge of the investigation do not have doubts.

Yep, I know there are two bridges. But I get an awful feeling every time I see the one closest to the SoS. MOO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yep, I know there are two bridges. But I get an awful feeling every time I see the one closest to the SoS. MOO.

That is the old railroad bridge. It would have been difficult to get a dead or unconscious body over the barrier.

 

[JaimeSommers]

That is the old railroad bridge. It would have been difficult to get a dead or unconscious body over the barrier.

I've been going to Lewisburg at least once a year for 23 years. I know it's the old RR bridge. I never said I thought Ray was dead or unconscious at the bridge; he could have been alive and climbed over when it got dark. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. Now you're going to tell me I'm wrong?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've been going to Lewisburg at least once a year for 23 years. I know it's the old RR bridge. I never said I thought Ray was dead or unconscious at the bridge; he could have been alive and climbed over when it got dark. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. Now you're going to tell me I'm wrong?

No, I'm not even suggesting that you are wrong. You have seen, as have I, but there are people reading this that have never been to Lewisburg. I'm trying to give background.

Frankly, I don't think there has been a huge amount of discussion of that bridge, and perhaps we should discuss it.

 

[MamaJoJo]

I, for one, never knew there were two bridges right there - the "old railroad" bridge and the "highway" bridge? Which bridge was the laptop found near? And the hard drive was found a bit North of the laptop, correct? Going to look at a map now :smile:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I, for one, never knew there were two bridges right there - the "old railroad" bridge and the "highway" bridge? Which bridge was the laptop found near? And the hard drive was found a bit North of the laptop, correct? Going to look at a map now :smile:

The drive was found close to the bank north of the highway bridge. The laptop was just by the highway bridge, on the north side, but closer to the halfway point.

Here are some site photos. https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay/Lewisburg73009

Though it is pretty well obscured by the trees, you can see part of it in the last photo.

 

[MamaJoJo]

The drive was found close to the bank north of the highway bridge. The laptop was just by the highway bridge, on the north side, but closer to the halfway point.

Here are some site photos. https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay/Lewisburg73009

Though it is pretty well obscured by the trees, you can see part of it in the last photo.

Thanks, JJ. It's all so perplexing. :dunno:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just a note. On 8/5/14 the ties on the railroad bridge caught fire. Not good quality, but he is a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVCA7NSI9Q

Added, I also better photos of the railroad bridge here: http://bridgehunter.com/pa/union/bh48819/ That was before the fire.

 

[Saunterer]

There are 3 bridges...the third being just north of the Street of Shops, carrying River Road over Buffalo Creek. The divers searched under this bridge as well that first week.

 

[Saunterer]

BBM ... You probably already know this, but Fridays are the only days on which the SoS is open until 8:00 p.m.; otherwise, it closes at 5:00 p.m. (April 15, 2005, was a Friday.)

I feel like I have little to add given that pretty much everyone has visited the SoS at some point in the last almost ten years. I go there annually with friends as part of a Christmas shopping road trip. (We live an hour away, very close to Bellefonte. I was called several times to sit in jury pools for trials tried by Ray and his team, one of whom is a former neighbor.)

Anyway, as you already know, the SoS is huge and like a labyrinth. Every time I've been in there since 2005, I've facetiously said that Ray could have crawled into a space somewhere in the basement and died and no one would ever know it. Lots of twists and turns and pockets.

The restaurant sits on the main floor, as you know, and is open right onto the main walkway, so I don't doubt waitresses could have seen Ray walking by. You can see everyone who goes by from the restaurant.

It's not the SoS that piques my interest as much as its close proximity to the bridge over the river. Walk straight along the right side of the SoS and you're at the bridge. If I'm remembering correctly -- and I believe I am because my friends and I talk about it every year -- close to the underside of the bridge is an island area. As I've said before, not enough has been done to search that area.

I watched the divers drag the bottom of that channel between the mainland and island, and LE search the island as well that first week. The water then was still somewhat high and murky in the channel. That same area was searched repeatedly in the weeks and months that followed. I do not think RG wound up in the river or channel there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There are 3 bridges...the third being just north of the Street of Shops, carrying River Road over Buffalo Creek. The divers searched under this bridge as well that first week.

IIRC, that bridge is not a particularly deep drop and the water is not particularly deep. It would not a particularly good place to drop a dead body or commit suicide.

Also, is that creek fished?

I do agree that it is unlikely RFG was ever in the water.

 

[Saunterer]

IIRC, that bridge is not a particularly deep drop and the water is not particularly deep. It would not a particularly good place to drop a dead body or commit suicide.

Also, is that creek fished?

I do agree that it is unlikely RFG was ever in the water.

It was deep enough that first week to cause the divers to search there and down the channel, dragging a rope between them to snag a body if it was present. I never saw anyone fishing there, at the mouth of Buffalo Creek. The annual Spring excursion of kayakers/canoers came down the creek to the river very soon after.

 

[Saunterer]

Like you J.J., I do not believe RG wound up in the water at Lewisburg. And to date no one, including LE, has ever put forth a shred of concrete evidence that RG was ever in Lewisburg that weekend. Please do not bother with the usual junk in retort (been there and done with that).

Unlike you, I believe certain people (including LE) wanted everyone to believe that he was there that weekend and even that he was in the water. The sudden, supposed and as yet unsubstantiated claims regarding the happenstance "finding" of RG's laptop, and later a matching hard drive, is sufficient reason to cast doubt on the whole Lewisburg scenario.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Like you J.J., I do not believe RG wound up in the water at Lewisburg. And to date no one, including LE, has ever put forth a shred of concrete evidence that RG was ever in Lewisburg that weekend. Please do not bother with the usual junk in retort (been there and done with that).

Unlike you, I believe certain people (including LE) wanted everyone to believe that he was there that weekend and even that he was in the water. The sudden, supposed and as yet unsubstantiated claims regarding the happenstance "finding" of RG's laptop, and later a matching hard drive, is sufficient reason to cast doubt on the whole Lewisburg scenario.

I find nothing unusual in the finding of the laptop.

There is a mass of evidence that is both direct and indirect, physical and eyewitness evidence, that has been released (and some that hasn't).

Everyone have a happy holiday.

 

[MissJ]

I'm very interested in actual knowledge as well as opinions. What do you think happened to RFG.

 

[snowleopard]

Hi Miss J. What keeps me interested in this case is that although I've followed it for a few years, I still don't know what to think! I've only recently discovered this blog, for anyone interested (hope it's ok to post) https://sites.google.com/site/gricardisappearance/.