PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[MissJ]

I sometimes think walkaway and other times homicide. But currently suicide, no. No body.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I sometimes think walkaway and other times homicide. But currently suicide, no. No body.

I'd feel better saying no suicide, if I knew that there had been a thorough search of the wetlands and wooded areas across the river. I think it is the least likely possibility.

 

[MissJ]

Eye witnesses can be very unreliable. Did any of the people who claimed to have seen RFG either day actually know him? I know this has been answered before but I have forgotten.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Eye witnesses can be very unreliable. Did any of the people who claimed to have seen RFG either day actually know him? I know this has been answered before but I have forgotten.

Yes, on the way there someone who recognized him saw him turning on 192 in Centre Hall.

I know of several other unreported witnesses west of that.

The people in Lewisburg did not know him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just an a note, the current DA in Centre County was accused by a former employee (paralegal) of forging a court order on Tuesday:

http://www.centredaily.com/2015/01/20/4562916_da-parks-miller-faces-allegations.html?rh=1

SPM, the DA, indicated that it had been previously turned over to the PA Attorney General's Office.

However, the Bellefonte Police also has jurisdiction and served a search warrant for the DA's Office tonight, not only including forgery but also theft of services. http://www.centredaily.com/2015/01/24/4570115_police-parks-miller-seen-at-county.html?rh=1

No charges have been filed, it is clear that there is an investigation.

I am citing this because SPM was the DA that established the review panel for the Gricar case, agreed to turn the case over to the PSP. Also, the Bellefonte Police was in charge of the Gricar investigation, prior to it being turned over to the PSP.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just an a note, the current DA in Centre County was accused by a former employee (paralegal) of forging a court order on Tuesday:

http://www.centredaily.com/2015/01/20/4562916_da-parks-miller-faces-allegations.html?rh=1

SPM, the DA, indicated that it had been previously turned over to the PA Attorney General's Office.

However, the Bellefonte Police also has jurisdiction and served a search warrant for the DA's Office tonight, not only including forgery but also theft of services. http://www.centredaily.com/2015/01/24/4570115_police-parks-miller-seen-at-county.html?rh=1

No charges have been filed, it is clear that there is an investigation.

I am citing this because SPM was the DA that established the review panel for the Gricar case, agreed to turn the case over to the PSP. Also, the Bellefonte Police was in charge of the Gricar investigation, prior to it being turned over to the PSP.

It looks like SPM may have been part of a PSP investigation and acting to protect an informant.

 

[SuperSmith]

It looks like SPM may have been part of a PSP investigation and acting to protect an informant.

Perhaps Gricar is her informant and perhaps she threw the laptop for Gricar after meeting in the SOS parking lot with him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Perhaps Gricar is her informant and perhaps she threw the laptop for Gricar after meeting in the SOS parking lot with him.

SPM was a defense attorney at the time. They had a friendly relationship for adversaries. The had exchanged e-mails on 4/14/05.

 

[SuperSmith]

SPM was a defense attorney at the time. They had a friendly relationship for adversaries. The had exchanged e-mails on 4/14/05.

Why hasn't it become IMO painfully obvious to those here on this thread that Ray Gricar met with foul play in 2005?

While I can appreciate others opinions let's call it for what it is. The percentages weigh heavily on foul play depite little evidence to support it. The killers were either very good or very lucky.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why hasn't it become IMO painfully obvious to those here on this thread that Ray Gricar met with foul play in 2005?

While I can appreciate others opinions let's call it for what it is. The percentages weigh heavily on foul play depite little evidence to support it. The killers were either very good or very lucky.

Because there is no evidence of it, as is stated.

There is some circumstantial evidence that points to walkaway or suicide, and more strongly toward walkaway. It is probable, but it is not proof.

It is like a balance scale. There is evidence that points to the disappearance being voluntary (including suicide) on one side and nothing on the on the other side.

Take the laptop. No killer could have known what data was on it; no killer could have known if there were additional copies of anything that was on there. No killer could have known RFG would bring it with him. No killer could have made RFG, months before, inquire about how to make the data unreadable.

 

[wendybtn]

I've always believed RFG followed his brother. From what I recall reading about the case, there was never any other explanation that made sense to me.

 

[SuperSmith]

I've always believed RFG followed his brother. From what I recall reading about the case, there was never any other explanation that made sense to me.

My problem with that is the water level at the time, no body found, no reason or note left behind, and no indication he was suicidal other than being a bit more tired.

I respect your opinion

 

[SuperSmith]

Because there is no evidence of it, as is stated.

There is some circumstantial evidence that points to walkaway or suicide, and more strongly toward walkaway. It is probable, but it is not proof.

It is like a balance scale. There is evidence that points to the disappearance being voluntary (including suicide) on one side and nothing on the on the other side.

Take the laptop. No killer could have known what data was on it; no killer could have known if there were additional copies of anything that was on there. No killer could have known RFG would bring it with him. No killer could have made RFG, months before, inquire about how to make the data unreadable.

You are correct sir. For me however the circumstantial evidence as pointed out doesn't tip the scale in that favor. A man of his stature, impeccable career, love for his daughter and girlfriend doesn't fit the profile for a suicide or walk away especially when no reason(s) have been found. I find it very unlikely that an alive Gricar wouldn't have been found by now. Same goes for remains washed down the river. A murder however usually involves hiding the body.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

You are correct sir. For me however the circumstantial evidence as pointed out doesn't tip the scale in that favor. A man of his stature, impeccable career, love for his daughter and girlfriend doesn't fit the profile for a suicide or walk away especially when no reason(s) have been found. I find it very unlikely that an alive Gricar wouldn't have been found by now. Same goes for remains washed down the river. A murder however usually involves hiding the body.

It does as there is no counter weight.

We know that RFG was acting unusually in the weeks prior to his disappearance. We also know that his travels were not those of a man worried about his personal safety, e.g. driving into sparely populated areas without full time police protection and with spotty or nonexistent cell coverage. That set of facts are consistent with suicide or walkaway, but not murder. It doesn't eliminate murder, but the weight points some voluntary act on RFG's part.

I tend to agree that if this was suicide a body would have been found.

 

[SuperSmith]

It does as there is no counter weight.

We know that RFG was acting unusually in the weeks prior to his disappearance. We also know that his travels were not those of a man worried about his personal safety, e.g. driving into sparely populated areas without full time police protection and with spotty or nonexistent cell coverage. That set of facts are consistent with suicide or walkaway, but not murder. It doesn't eliminate murder, but the weight points some voluntary act on RFG's part.

I tend to agree that if this was suicide a body would have been found.

Can you explain "we" knowing that Gricar was acting unusual prior to his disappearance? If you mean that he was napping more or that he didn't seem with it in a meeting that isn't particularly unusual. Don't we all have that once in awhile?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Can you explain "we" knowing that Gricar was acting unusual prior to his disappearance? If you mean that he was napping more or that he didn't seem with it in a meeting that isn't particularly unusual. Don't we all have that once in awhile?

We have JKA saying so, Shotts and Joseph noticing it, and the people a the Prison Board meeting. It was over a period of several weeks.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

SPM just filed a petition with the PA Supreme Court to block the action: http://www.wearecentralpa.com/media...f6-f24836e65b8c/PA_Supreme_Court_Petition.pdf

It was a witness protection thing, according to the filing.

 

[SuperSmith]

We have JKA saying so, Shotts and Joseph noticing it, and the people a the Prison Board meeting. It was over a period of several weeks.

Unfortunately none of their accounts point us in a definitive direction. Any of the three theories could be matched up to their reports.

For me it takes me to problems with a case or coworker

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Unfortunately none of their accounts point us in a definitive direction. Any of the three theories could be matched up to their reports.

For me it takes me to problems with a case or coworker

Not foul play directly; RFG obviously would not have known that he would be murdered in advance. Whatever was bothering him, it was not that he was worried about his physical safety.

 

[MissJ]

Not foul play directly; RFG obviously would not have known that he would be murdered in advance. Whatever was bothering him, it was not that he was worried about his physical safety.

He might have been threatened and NOT reported it. Many people who are threatened do not report all the time. After awhile, when you do report, its like the boy who cried wolf. Damned if you don't and damned if you do.