PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

This is video about a case RFG worked on in the 1990's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbTVzJ0vLE

You can hear his voice.

 

[Song in My Heart]

O/T

:rollercoaster:

Party on in PHILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:thewave:

 

[Trackergd]

Trica has a note up about a TV show wanting to cover a WS case. I suggested this one to her as well as my long running Lauren Jackson case.

 

[Trackergd]

we are seeing increased interest at this time.

Respectfully Snipped

A lot of very cold cases are now being solved with very public focus. Lots of TV shows highlighting these cases, including some real interesting ones like the Zodiac.

A WS member had a big hand in solving the Jacob Wetterling case.

There has been some real advances in Forensics as well. Magnetic tomography, deep seeking metal detectors, ground resistance equipment and software all give us a look deep into the ground beneath our feet, inside walls, concrete and other previously inaccessible places. While very expensive now, time should bring the price tag down into the affordable range for sleuths. I have personally made a sizable investment in this technology.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The improved technology could help, but it would still be a shot in the dark, no pun intended.

Even if this turns out to be murder, we still don't know where to look for even a crime scene, much less a body.

I would like to see the case covered, any publicity is good.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

WJAC ran a segment on RFG last night, according a promo: http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/cold-case-report-ray-gricar/983415971

I have not seen it yet.

 

[Trackergd]

WJAC ran a segment on RFG last night, according a promo: http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/cold-case-report-ray-gricar/983415971

I have not seen it yet.

Can't find a link considering it aired a day or two ago.

 

[cutter99]

That link will take you right to it!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you. Weaver basically said voluntary (suicide or walkaway).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There has been a piece of physical evidence that we have not really looked at, and that is the ash.

The car, when opened, had a scent of cigarette smoke in it and a very small amount of ash was found on the floor on the passenger side. RFG did not smoke cigarettes and did not permit smoking in the Mini.

I am trying to come up with how this would fit with any scenario.

 

[Kittybunny]

There has been a piece of physical evidence that we have not really looked at, and that is the ash.

The car, when opened, had a scent of cigarette smoke in it and a very small amount of ash was found on the floor on the passenger side. RFG did not smoke cigarettes and did not permit smoking in the Mini.

I am trying to come up with how this would fit with any scenario.

A few thoughts...Do we know how much ash was found on the passenger side? Like a enough to surmise that someone was essentially using the floor as an ashtray, or a very minute amount? Because if you smoke in your car with the windows down, ashes will fly anywhere. So if that’s the case it doesn’t necessarily indicate that it was the passenger who was smoking.

1. Did Ray ever smoke? Like a long time ago even. If so, one scenario would be the one last cigarette if he was either committing suicide or walking away. Like at that point, who cares about smoke?

2. Another scenario under the foul play umbrella would be straight out of a B-movie - Ray picked somebody up for a meeting, they get in the car, and then proceed to light up. Ray says you can’t smoke in the car, stranger pulls out a gun and says what are you gonna do about it? The stranger then does away with Ray and drives the car back to the parking lot where it was found at some point.

It’s not much, but it’s all I got.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for brevity only

1. Did Ray ever smoke? Like a long time ago even. If so, one scenario would be the one last cigarette if he was either committing suicide or walking away. Like at that point, who cares about smoke?

2. Another scenario under the foul play umbrella would be straight out of a B-movie - Ray picked somebody up for a meeting, they get in the car, and then proceed to light up. Ray says you can’t smoke in the car, stranger pulls out a gun and says what are you gonna do about it? The stranger then does away with Ray and drives the car back to the parking lot where it was found at some point.

It’s not much, but it’s all I got.

RFG dd not smoke cigarettes ever, so far as had been reported. He would sometimes have a "celebratory" cigar after winning a case. He did not like cigarettes.

The ash was small, just a fragment. It was not like someone flicked an ash on the floor. LE floated the theory that someone could have leaned into the car, on the passenger side, and a small piece dropped off; that should indicate how little there was in the car. I'm not agreeing that it was someone leaning in, just saying that LE thinks it could have been that.

That said, the only evidence that anyone other than RFG interacted with the Mini is that ash fragment and smell of smoke. There was no unidentified hair or any unknown DNA in the car that was found; RFG's DNA was in a water bottle in the car. There was distributor for the brand in Centre County.

While there were not enough ridges to be able to make a positive identification of the fingerprints inside the car, but the car was not wiped down. RFG's fingerprints were on the outside driver's side window. That only tells us that the exterior was not washed after RFG exited the vehicle.

There would be a problem with someone holding a gun on a driver, while the car is moving. The driver can drive the car into a telephone pole or something, hitting the pole with the passenger side of the vehicle.

It would be possible if the car was parked.

Keep in mind that I am trying to play Devil's Advocate. Look at what I'm writing and see if you can come up with a counterargument.

 

[dub]

Snipped for brevity only



RFG dd not smoke cigarettes ever, so far as had been reported. He would sometimes have a "celebratory" cigar after winning a case. He did not like cigarettes.

The ash was small, just a fragment. It was not like someone flicked an ash on the floor. LE floated the theory that someone could have leaned into the car, on the passenger side, and a small piece dropped off; that should indicate how little there was in the car. I'm not agreeing that it was someone leaning in, just saying that LE thinks it could have been that.

That said, the only evidence that anyone other than RFG interacted with the Mini is that ash fragment and smell of smoke. There was no unidentified hair or any unknown DNA in the car that was found; RFG's DNA was in a water bottle in the car. There was distributor for the brand in Centre County.

While there were not enough ridges to be able to make a positive identification of the fingerprints inside the car, but the car was not wiped down. RFG's fingerprints were on the outside driver's side window. That only tells us that the exterior was not washed after RFG exited the vehicle.

There would be a problem with someone holding a gun on a driver, while the car is moving. The driver can drive the car into a telephone pole or something, hitting the pole with the passenger side of the vehicle.

It would be possible if the car was parked.

Keep in mind that I am trying to play Devil's Advocate. Look at what I'm writing and see if you can come up with a counterargument.

The cigarette thing is really confusing.

The ash could have come from someone on the outside leaning in, but if that was the case I HIGHLY doubt the smell of cigarettes would still be detectable in the car. To me, the noticeable smell suggests that someone actually smoked in the car very close to the last time the doors were closed prior to its being found.

Is it known where on the passenger side the ash was found? Like, was it on the floormat where a passengers feet would be? Or on the floor between the seat and the door?

Smoking in a moving car sends little bits of ash everywhere, but from my experience the floormats in the front seat are some of the LEAST likely places to collect ash, especially directly at the feet of the person who is smoking. (Most of it goes in the back seat, between the seats and doors, or on the dashboard). If the ash was on the passenger side floormat, I think it's more likely to have come from someone smoking in the drivers seat than in the passenger seat.

It's possible that someone smoked in it and tried to clean the ash out afterward, and just missed the little piece that was found (more likely if the ash was found between the seat and the door).

Or I could maybe see someone who was a heavy smoker entering the car, NOT smoking in it, but having the small piece of ash fall off their clothes and onto the floor. But that persons clothes would have to reek really bad of smoke for the smell to still be detectable when the car was found.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The ash was reported to be on the floor, not on the door frame or between the seats. From the way LE talked, it was visible when the opened the car. The car wasn't wiped down, so if someone cleaned it, they only would have cleaned the ash.

Yes, my father was smoker and I don't remember anything on the passenger side (except what fell out of the ash tray).

How about this? Someone sat in the car on the passenger side very briefly, lit up, and exited. Would that be a good possibility?

If someone leaned into the car, the passenger side window would have had to have been open. It was not opened when the Mini. The keys were not in the ignition; they are missing.

For the sake of argument, someone in the parking lot, a smoker (designated S), pulls a gun on RFG while standing on the passenger side. He might be able, prior to pulling the gun, to tap on the window and get RFG to lower the window.

1. Why doesn't S go up on driver's side? It would be much easier to keep RFG covered from the driver's side. He wouldn't have to lean in. Sure, it could have been two people, one on the driver's side, but why would smoker lean in.

2. S leans through the window, and he, and possibly someone on the driver's side, get RFG out of the Mini. Why would S close the window?

Any problem with my logic on this?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Going on with this, I though about another possibility. The smoker wants to get something in the Mini, e.g. the laptop, but it could be anything. The smoker either has the key or the car is unlocked. He opens the passenger side door, while smoking. The cigarette is lit so it is smoking; the smoker exhales. A tiny bit of ash falls on the passenger side floor.

The smoker picks up the item and closes the door. Then he locks it.

If the smoker had killed RFG or had just forced him into another car in order to kill him, why lock the door?

 

[Trackergd]

Going on with this, I though about another possibility. The smoker wants to get something in the Mini, e.g. the laptop, but it could be anything. The smoker either has the key or the car is unlocked. He opens the passenger side door, while smoking. The cigarette is lit so it is smoking; the smoker exhales. A tiny bit of ash falls on the passenger side floor.

The smoker picks up the item and closes the door. Then he locks it.

If the smoker had killed RFG or had just forced him into another car in order to kill him, why lock the door?

I agree with this scenario. Locked the door to prevent the curious from poking around or even stealing it and ruining the planted scene.

Wondering if RFG was fiddling with the laptop, but not the person who put the laptop and drive in the river. It could have been on the floor and the smoker was swiping it while RFG was distracted by the mystery woman or in the SOS. This would suggest a very organized and coordinated event.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree with this scenario. Locked the door to prevent the curious from poking around or even stealing it and ruining the planted scene.

Wondering if RFG was fiddling with the laptop, but not the person who put the laptop and drive in the river. It could have been on the floor and the smoker was swiping it while RFG was distracted by the mystery woman or in the SOS. This would suggest a very organized and coordinated event.

I'm trying to put myself in the mindset of a killer. I'd want someone to steal the car, or the phone, or the laptop. The police would think the person who stole one of those things murdered RFG. The phone in particular would do that. LE would be looking at cell tower pings; maybe the person who stole it would use it. I'd want that to happen.

 

[Trackergd]

OK, let me put it another way. I HATE the smell of cigarette smoke. If someone were to get into my vehicle and tried to light up, they would be back out of my vehicle faster than they thought humanly possible (they might be taking the door with them). I do not think that RFG would have willingly allowed a smoker in the Mini. Two choices; it was unwillingly or when he was not in it. If RFG were having a "last smoke", I would think it would have been a cigar. Someone was in the Mini that did not belong there. We don't know if they also re-positioned the Mini. We don't know who put the laptop and drive in the river. I can't help but feel that all the parts of the puzzle are here, we just can't see the pattern.

 

[Cherry]

I really believe Ray is 'Bloody Mary Poolside.'

How often, if ever; had he traveled to Mexico Bermuda or Bahamas? What were his stomping grounds and favorite holiday get away places? Where did he love?

 

[Ozoner]

OK, let me put it another way. I HATE the smell of cigarette smoke. If someone were to get into my vehicle and tried to light up, they would be back out of my vehicle faster than they thought humanly possible (they might be taking the door with them). I do not think that RFG would have willingly allowed a smoker in the Mini. Two choices; it was unwillingly or when he was not in it. If RFG were having a "last smoke", I would think it would have been a cigar. Someone was in the Mini that did not belong there. We don't know if they also re-positioned the Mini. We don't know who put the laptop and drive in the river. I can't help but feel that all the parts of the puzzle are here, we just can't see the pattern.

One possible explanation for the ash is that someone noticed the Mini sitting there for an extended period of time and decided to snoop or to loot it. That person could have stolen the laptop but tossed it later after finding out that it was connected to a missing person.