PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, followup: Assuming a walkaway scenario, do you think his children are in on it?

RFG has one child, a daughter. I frankly do not believe that she knew, i.e. that he contacted her of left her a note or overt message.

RFG was a lawyer and was at least familiar with the Mel Wiley case. Wiley was a police chief in Hinckley Township Ohio. He disappeared and the police determined that he left voluntarily. After 7-8 years, he was declared dead by a court; his next of kin, his mother, testified.

RFG would know that, eventually, if he was not found, he'd be declared dead; his next of kin was his daughter. I think she was only person who had standing to file to declare him dead. It was almost certain that she would have to testify, as would his girlfriend. If RFG told her, she would have to lie under oath that she had never heard from him; that would be, at least perjury, and possibly fraud; he had to know that she would have been put in that position if he told her. I don't think he would have done that.

He also would not know if the police would polygraph her (they did) or if they would monitor her communications.

That said, it would have possible that either a third party got his daughter a message, indirectly, that RFG left some clues that she would pick up on (e.g. 20/20 Vision), or that she would look at the situation, especially his finances, and suspected that he did walk away.

 

[Trackergd]

What would he be walking away from? He could have left PF at any time. Unless we are missing something big, what reason would he have to walk away?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What would he be walking away from? He could have left PF at any time. Unless we are missing something big, what reason would he have to walk away?

One possibility is that he was walking to something, money.

Question for you. A cadaver dog was used to search a pond in the Montandon wetland in another case. If RFG's remains were in the general area, could the dog detect it? If it was 50 feet away, for example, is it likely the dog would have picked up on it?

 

[Trackergd]

Depending on wind direction and temperature, yes. Decomposition gasses bubble up through the water and are detectable by cadaver dogs in the area if the direction of wind is favorable and it is not too hot out. In colder temperatures, scents lay closer to the ground.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Depending on wind direction and temperature, yes. Decomposition gasses bubble up through the water and are detectable by cadaver dogs in the area if the direction of wind is favorable and it is not too hot out. In colder temperatures, scents lay closer to the ground.

The pond in the Montandon wetland area was searched in August by both cadaver dogs and divers in an unrelated case (the 1989 Barbara Miller disappearance). http://www.dailyitem.com/news/updat...cle_26616604-7dc5-11e7-abfd-4fa5e31b534e.html

What I am wondering is if had RFG's remains been in that pond, or within 2-3 yards around it, would the dogs have hit on it.

The pond would be moderately good place to hide a body (which is why the police were checking). If that can be cleared, it might change the odds a bit.

 

[Sailor Haumea]

Follow-up question on the walkaway theory - do you think he'll come forward before he dies, just to reassure everyone? Or even just have an obituary published.

 

[Trackergd]

One possibility is that he was walking to something, money.

Question for you. A cadaver dog was used to search a pond in the Montandon wetland in another case. If RFG's remains were in the general area, could the dog detect it? If it was 50 feet away, for example, is it likely the dog would have picked up on it?

The more I think about it, the more I wonder that if he was walking away to money, I "think" he would have somehow shared that information, if not the money, with PF and his daughter in some manner. Walking to "someone" seems remote as well as from all accounts, he and PF were happy. If not, it would have been a simple matter to agree to go their own ways. Walking away to become a missing person seems a bit radical.

Walking away from the Sandusky scandal is a 50/50 as there is no evidence (at this point) that he was in a position to be held accountable for not taking action.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Follow-up question on the walkaway theory - do you think he'll come forward before he dies, just to reassure everyone? Or even just have an obituary published.

When RFG was declared dead, I think that ended any possibility of a voluntary return. His will was probated, his pension awarded, and it would be hard to get that genie back in the bottle. Obviously, if he is dead, then he won't return.

I doubt if a formal obituary would be published, even if his remains were found. I would expect that the discovery of his remains, either if they are along the Susquehanna, or if they are found in house in Ljubljana, will make the paper. The thing is that, if he was using a different name, he could end up being buried under that name.

 

[Deleted member 278]

Isn't someone who is a friend of James Renner going to do a doc on this case?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

The more I think about it, the more I wonder that if he was walking away to money, I "think" he would have somehow shared that information, if not the money, with PF and his daughter in some manner.

His heirs got his pension. He had joint accounts with LAG, so half of it was her's before he disappeared, legally; it was not subject to inheritance tax. PEF had her mortgage paid off and had a Mini Cooper. We don't know about any life insurance. Effectively, the money was shared, even if this suicide or murder.

The question I have is if RFG left something that would not, overtly, indicate he walked away, e.g. a note. Could he have sent a signal that was indirect? Maybe 20/20 Vision or maybe that is just coincidence.

Walking away from the Sandusky scandal is a 50/50 as there is no evidence (at this point) that he was in a position to be held accountable for not taking action.

At this point, I'd give walking away (or suicide) solely to avoid the Penn State scandal much lower than 50/50 for several reasons:

1. As is pointed out, there is no evidence that, other than some bad press, that he'd be facing any problem.

a. RFG did nothing unethical, so far as we know. He did not abuse his discretion as DA. Even if he did, he wasn't planning to practice law; so it wouldn't make a difference.

b. RFG did nothing illegal, so far as we know. The most likely criminal acts that he could do in regard to Sandusky would be taking a bribe or blackmailing someone. Both of those things would generate money for RFG. Nobody is asking the question, "Where did Gricar get all that money." Why? Well, because he didn't have an unexpectedly large amount of money.

c. He was not planning to do anything where good or bad press made a difference. Running for office or opening a law practice could be hurt by bad press, but RFG wasn't planning to do either.

2. In 2005, how did RFG know that the 1998 incident would come out?

a. Sandusky might never be caught.

b. Sandusky might have stopped, so there wouldn't be any further investigation. Sandusky also wasn't exactly young in 2005 (61); he might die of natural causes.

c. Even if Sandusky was caught, there is no guarantee, that the 1998 incident would be discovered. LE might find one or more newer victims and not dig into Sandusky's past.

d. There were two known victims Victim 6 and B.K. They might not be able to testify. B.K. was out of the country in 2011-12 and couldn't testify. Something, in theory, could have prevented Victim 6 from testifying as well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The more I look at this, the more it looks like something voluntary, either suicide or walkaway.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

While probably not related to RFG, skeletal remains were found outside of Shippensburg. It is about 70 miles from Lewisburg:

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/01/skeletal_human_remains_found_b.html#incart_river_home_pop

I am wondering how long the remains were there and remained undiscovered.

(It could be Kortne Stouffer. It is about 1-2 miles off I-81, which runs reasonably close to Palmyra, PA.)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

While probably not related to RFG, skeletal remains were found outside of Shippensburg. It is about 70 miles from Lewisburg:

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/01/skeletal_human_remains_found_b.html#incart_river_home_pop

I am wondering how long the remains were there and remained undiscovered.

(It could be Kortne Stouffer. It is about 1-2 miles off I-81, which runs reasonably close to Palmyra, PA.)

A male and about a year old: http://abc27.com/2018/01/22/skeletal-remains-found-near-shippensburg/

That rules out either of them.

 

[fraudqueen]

I hope we find out someday what happened to him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A nice summary of the case to familiarize people with the case: http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/ray-gricar-disappearance-152304

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Nothing new in this video, but it is good to see interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7lsWij5Q8

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a very detailed and frank discussion of the case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgzDaAVjeMI&t=1175s

It plays up the spy angle, which I think is unlikely.

I am happy to see continued interest.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

While probably not related to RFG, skeletal remains were found outside of Shippensburg. It is about 70 miles from Lewisburg:

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/01/skeletal_human_remains_found_b.html#incart_river_home_pop

I am wondering how long the remains were there and remained undiscovered.

(It could be Kortne Stouffer. It is about 1-2 miles off I-81, which runs reasonably close to Palmyra, PA.)

The remains were about 7 months old. That should give some idea of natural decay and predation.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNx2XSwAzsU

Nothing new in it, but there has been a surprising number of Internet activities on RFG in the last fortnight.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNx2XSwAzsU

It is a bit strange that we are seeing increased interest at this time.