PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[SeekingJana]

Is it OK if I weigh in here regarding the likelihood of suicide? I have a Master's degree in Behavioral Psychology. Counseling was my " second career" until my best friend, who owned the practice with her physician husband, died not even 6 months after she'd buried her husband. I miss her ( and him) a lot more than I miss the client work, and I LOVED the work.

ROY was Bi- Polar. I don't know anything else about his mental health, but Tony said his dad was bi-polar and didn't want to take his medication, which is a hallmark feature of Bi-Polar patients. When they feel really good, they don't want their feelings and emotions blunted by the medications. It's part of the illness to be resistant to taking the medication long term. ( Plus the meds. have side effects for most people).
Ray didn't have any of these symptoms of either Depression or of Bi-Polar disorder, which is also genetic linked in distribution of cases.
It's my belief that if he planned suicide or committed suicide impulsively, he'd do it right there in his home or his car. Not out in the wilds to have the animals pick over his remains. He KNEW what happens to a body out in the open. Most people will pick a comfortable place to die, if they have a choice in the matter.

Also, he and his brother were not swimmers to any extent. That's one reason Ray didn't believe his brother committed suicide- the fear of the water would cause him to seek another method. This is a thought process of high viability.
Most people do want comfort in their final moments of life, however they die. I'm afraid of heights to the point of not wanting to vacation in the mountains, so I'd not be one to jump off or out of a building to my self- directed death.

Ray may be right. Roy, despite his son saying was bi- polar and hating his meds, may have been a victim of foul play. I tend to think his death was suicide because of the Bi- Polar disorder, which ALSO has a high genetic link and is more correct to say when discussing the family's genetic traits instead of " Roy was depressed". No, Roy had a chemical imbalance of the brain called Bi- Polar disorder.

There are no known signs that Ray inherited Bi- Polar disorder or was more susceptible to Major Depression than the average person. I'm sure he did give weight to Roy's diagnosis, as Roy did take Rx medication. It's harder for a layperson who tends to disbelieve psych. disorders when there's a lifelong prescription medication needed to keep the disorder stable and in check.

I put suicide at the lowest of the choices, around 1% because--" Past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior" especially by the age of 59 ( I should know, as I'm now 60) and there is NO indication that Ray was a person suffering from either Major Depression or Bi- Polar disorder.

Also, if a person argues for suicide, then you have to explain where the body went and how it got there. THIS is one of the stickiest points against both murder and suicide. Lack of even one bone or scrap of clothing left behind. ( The laptop is a totally different issue. It was not ON his body, therefore would not be an artifact of death).

Respectfully posted in memory of Mr. Roy Gricar and with great respect to my fellow posters and to Mr. Ray Gricar.

 

[SeekingJana]

A fond and happy welcome to the posters joining this case discussion. Glad you're here.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for space only.

2 Questions:
If RG committed suicide, what do you think were his possible reasons for doing so?
If RG did a walkaway, what do you think were his possible reasons for doing so?

Suicide:
As Jana pointed out, depression, and even a tenancy for suicide while depressed, can be genetic.

Another factor could be money. RFG did not have the kind of money in saving that would be expected for someone with his income and lifestyle. He could have made some bad investments and was depressed over his financial situation; he would get a very good pension, but he still might not have had the kind of money in retirement that he wanted.

Walkaway:

I listed several possible reasons on the previous page.

1. He didn't want to be "the ex-DA" for the rest of his life and didn't want to have to answer questions about his past cases.

2. He was worried that someone he prosecuted might target him years later.

3. He found the idea of "hitting the road," and starting a new life, appealing.

4. He wanted to show his ultimate superiority over everyone by confounding Central PA LE.

In addition, there is the money issue. The reason for RFG's low assets could be that he had moved them overseas, and that he would difficulty getting them back. In that case, it wouldn't be so much a "walkaway" as a walk to his assets.

 

[SeekingJana]

^^ J.J., are you totally discrediting or maybe discounting what Tracker and I have speculated about leaving to be with someone he'd met or re-connected with via the Internet or with the Internet as a means of communication?
We know he wasn't married, but maybe Emma gave him enough grief to want to avoid ALL the bad things that come with a breakup when the other person feels wronged and rejected, and maybe he had reason to believe that Patty would do the same and would smear his good name there in the courthouse with some of his closest co-workers and attorneys and such. " Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and all that is not too far off base, sometimes.

I agree with all your secondary reasons listed above but believe the most compelling reason was something much more personal and private. A lover.

Also, I do not believe he mismanaged a penny of his money in his career. He lived what I'd call a mostly frugal lifestyle for his career. It's really sparse looking back and comparing to the attorneys and such I know who are very lifestyle- conscious. I think Ray chose to be frugal for a long term goal, and in the interim, the love of his life came into the picture. More the reason to live quietly and leave quietly, I'd think.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

^^ J.J., are you totally discrediting or maybe discounting what Tracker and I have speculated about leaving to be with someone he'd met or re-connected with via the Internet or with the Internet as a means of communication?

Yes, in terms of a reconnect. That is because there is no one that RFG knew that was missing; he didn't "run off with another woman," as it were. As far as I can tell, no one that ever was close to RFG has been missing, even 13 years later.

Could it someone that didn't have a past relationship with with RFG, e. g. someone he met over the Internet? That is a bit more likely, but there are some problems:

1. Could he have had managed to do so without leaving a record? It is possible that he only used the laptop to communicate, but that would still be a bit difficult. He has to disconnect the home desktop and connect the laptop. Same at the office.

2. Will she really help RFG vanish; I really don't see anything in it for her. Why would she, effectively, hide him?

3. RFG could just move out on PEF, no fuss, nobody looking for him. Why would he need to vanish to be with the MW? He could even retire at that point, without loosing very much of his pension.

I would not rule out meeting the MW online, they meeting in person on 04/15/05, and then something happening in the nature of foul play. Going off with some other woman and covering his tracks is very unlikely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If I were sure that RFG was in Lewisburg on 04/15/05, suicide would move into that 1% of "something else."

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.



Yes, in terms of a reconnect. That is because there is no one that RFG knew that was missing; he didn't "run off with another woman," as it were. As far as I can tell, no one that ever was close to RFG has been missing, even 13 years later.

Could it someone that didn't have a past relationship with with RFG, e. g. someone he met over the Internet? That is a bit more likely, but there are some problems:

1. Could he have had managed to do so without leaving a record? It is possible that he only used the laptop to communicate, but that would still be a bit difficult. He has to disconnect the home desktop and connect the laptop. Same at the office.

2. Will she really help RFG vanish; I really don't see anything in it for her. Why would she, effectively, hide him?

3. RFG could just move out on PEF, no fuss, nobody looking for him. Why would he need to vanish to be with the MW? He could even retire at that point, without loosing very much of his pension.

I would not rule out meeting the MW online, they meeting in person on 04/15/05, and then something happening in the nature of foul play. Going off with some other woman and covering his tracks is very unlikely.

I think you have tunnel vision about the depth of feelings people can have in HS... or before, even. Or in college, maybe reciprocated, maybe unrequited. He knew women before, during, and after Barbara, Emma and Patty. Maybe one of the women he met was someone he wanted to get to know better, and after MySpace opened up and people were starting to use social media, he found her. After all, he was the D.A. I'd think he'd have access to all kinds of databases with personal info.. If he used it, I'm sure it was discreet and above board, but sometimes, circumstances are just RIGHT and everything clicks and falls into place, and people go with it.

The Internet changed EVERYTHING!!! I've had men I barely knew in other grades than mine contact me through social media in the early 2000's to tell me they " were in love" with me way back when, and I only barely remember them as a girl friend's younger brother, or the guy who was in band with me but was 6 years older and engaged to my best friend at that time. ( This is one of the reasons I don't have social media accounts any longer, BTW. I was already far away from that old life and those people and had no desire to ever go back and haven't and won't).
Both men were very serious and told me things about my activities and cars, personality and so forth that absolutely did happen. They weren't trolling, I don't think. I think their feelings were much different than mine were.

So, why couldn't something like this have happened to Ray? I look at his GF and I think " There's just no way a ladies' man would be happy with a boyish looking woman like her for long". I don't think he was, after all, he proposed to a nurse in that timeframe, right?

Maybe he got restless and decided to find someone you've never known about. Those people did exist in his life, you know. Maybe the woman contacted him- it's 50/ 50.
Maybe he did covertly date through a dating site and fell for one person. Contrary to what people think, there are some really nice mature people on some of the sites and they are looking for long term relationships with a person who likely doesn't live anywhere near them.
It happened to me, more than once. I had a great time and a deep love with someone I met online. We emailed and messaged and talked some on the phone but due to the lack of spare time he had with his career, not that much phone conversation until we'd met.
Ray Gricar had the means to check out someone's background from kindergarten to 2005. Most of us didn't back then, we trusted our instincts and made our own decisions.

Because I know lovers can connect through different ways connected to the Internet, I think you are being biased about the possibility. Also, just because no one from PA or his part of OH is missing doesn't mean a thing. HS kids have to move away with their parents a lot of times when the father was transferred or promoted with his career, or if the parents got divorced and the mother and teen had to go live with grandma in Tampa or whatever. There are so many various ways he'd have known someone, lost touch, then just because of the Internet and his databases he had access to through being a D.A., would have been able to find again. Or find for the first time on a mature dating site. AND, contrary to what you have thought about finances, sometimes, it is the 50 something year old woman who has the fortune, not the man. Inheritance from parents or grandparents, life insurance from a deceased spouse, money recovered as damages in a lawsuit, having been a successful businesswoman for 30 years, the list is endless.
It is sexist and demeaning to assume that Ray would be walking away from money if he was involved in the types of loves many of us have known. Where the money is there for both of us, where generosity is natural because it's part of the person's lifestyle, where the depth of the relationship confers the sharing of worldly goods with both people.

It may not be the never- married PA way, but it is the loving, committed partnership way and the married way of living to share assets without being a scrooge about money matters. Ray had been married, he would understand and be secure. We also truly do not know if he might have remarried years ago, legally. There are a couple of ways this could have happened, one involves LE on some level knowing his whereabouts and keeping quiet because no crime was committed, the other is marriage in a country without restrictions for him or in a banana republic where meticulous records aren't kept and shared with the US. Probably more options than I know about..

Closed minds about the possibilities of why he might have left PA or the US forever tends to close a lot of doors that might lead to answers that make sense and fit the timeline and internet social media time presence worldwide.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I think you have tunnel vision about the depth of feelings people can have in HS... or before, even. Or in college, maybe reciprocated, maybe unrequited. He knew women before, during, and after Barbara, Emma and Patty. Maybe one of the women he met was someone he wanted to get to know better, and after MySpace opened up and people were starting to use social media, he found her. After all, he was the D.A. I'd think he'd have access to all kinds of databases with personal info.. If he used it, I'm sure it was discreet and above board, but sometimes, circumstances are just RIGHT and everything clicks and falls into place, and people go with it.

He met BG when he was an undergraduate, so it was excess of 35 years. Granted, you can find people more easily, but it is still unlikely.

Some of his classmates from high school will still be around and they might have caught the connection.

Let's say that Sam was in high school, 40 years ago, with John and Mary. He heard that John disappeared without a trace. A few months later, he hears that Mary disappeared. Sam may notice the link.

In RFG's case, he went to a private high school that has active alumni association. It looks like a small class size. There is a good network.

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.



He met BG when he was an undergraduate, so it was excess of 35 years. Granted, you can find people more easily, but it is still unlikely.

Some of his classmates from high school will still be around and they might have caught the connection.

Let's say that Sam was in high school, 40 years ago, with John and Mary. He heard that John disappeared without a trace. A few months later, he hears that Mary disappeared. Sam may notice the link.

In RFG's case, he went to a private high school that has active alumni association. It looks like a small class size. There is a good network.

No, it's really not a bit unlikely that he either reconnected with a classmate, a person from another year's class, or a person he had college classes with, either undergraduate or in law school.

People can form emotional connections and friendships even if they marry early and are faithful. You can't truly understand this, but I and other people who've been married can understand how sometimes you're drawn to a person, and you just don't forget them later. You don't go cheat with them, but years later, you well might wonder how they are, if they are single, if they are still nice- looking, how their law career ( or other career) is going, all kinds of things.

You know those classic dreams most adults have about dreaming they're back in HS and it's time to take a test and you realize you didn't study for the test? Or the other classic of ending up in class nude? Everyone has those same dreams. Most of us have other HS or college dreams of old friends we laughed with and studied with and went to the Dairy Queen for lunch with, and we wonder what happened to him ( or in the case of a guy- her). SOME single people, especially men, will look the person up, because we know each person can hide behind a computer screen if we aren't interested or are remarried, or just didn't really like the guy to begin with in HS.
It's not like having to call the person and having them say " Who is this, now?" or " I don't remember you at all", or something worse like " Don't ever call me again" and dealing with that sort of rejection.

Fear of rejection is one of our strongest and most personal feelings to deal with, and the internet interaction has softened the rejection factor immensely. If it's not something a person wants, there is a delay time to respond and compose a kind and non- hurtful " Thanks, but I really can't get involved" kind of answer.

I just think, given the time frame, he decided to look up at least one woman he missed, or wanted to get to know years later, or she did the first contact. We will likely never know, it seems, anyway, but him leaving his retirement to Lara and life insurance to Patty and Lara and leaving the US for the life he maybe always dreamed of IS a distinct possibility. Likely he had no idea how many hundreds of thousands of people would be talking about him being missing, would be aware of who he is, and what a life of service he had given. But, his missing status did go national and international, and history was made.. Mel Wiley isn't the only missing officer of the law who's missing for people to muse about- obviously.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have no doubt that someone can hookup with someone they were with in high school or grade school. It has happened to me. If both people disappear at the same time, or even roughly at the same time, someone will make the connection. We don't have anyone that is missing from any point in RFG's life.

 

[SeekingJana]

I have no doubt that someone can hookup with someone they were with in high school or grade school. It has happened to me. If both people disappear at the same time, or even roughly at the same time, someone will make the connection. We don't have anyone that is missing from any point in RFG's life.

J.J., there's no way every person he knew for all his adult life are able to be noted and heads counted.
He likely knew thousands of people counting both OH and PA.

There's no one who monitored his comings and goings hour to hour or day to day to KNOW who he met and talked to. Who he struck up a special friendship with or didn't.

You can't prove a negative. You cannot say " There is no one from his life ever who can't be found now". We do not know who all he ever knew. Police don't know, Barbara doesn't know, and neither do Emma or Patty.
Besides, if he left the area, as we think he did, the other person had left the geographical area before he did. Who keeps up with who moved out of state and what year and if they knew Ray Gricar in their entire lifetime?

This is an argument that can't be won if you think he knew a small set of people only at the age of 59 years. I'm not going to discuss the issue with you again, because it's apparently so far outside your experiences. IDK, but you've always said " No one is missing" when we both have agreed if there is a woman involved, she's not a PA resident, and likely not an OH resident either. People in certain professions are mobile because their skill set is in such demand. I've lived and worked in 6 states and that's pretty low on the mobility scale for ambitious, highly skilled nurses. He seemed to like nurses, maybe there's a history with one. We don't know!

I don't see why he'd just aimlessly take off alone to anytown to do ?? nothing??. You apparently don't see how there could be someone important to him involved in his decision to leave Bellefonte. That's the stalemate. We've lived very different lives as adults and I think it's affecting the discussion.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

J.J., there's no way every person he knew for all his adult life are able to be noted and heads counted.
He likely knew thousands of people counting both OH and PA.

There's no one who monitored his comings and goings hour to hour or day to day to KNOW who he met and talked to. Who he struck up a special friendship with or didn't.

RFG knew a number of people, but they also knew him. Someone would know about a "special friend" from his past, especially someone who knew him at the time he was with the "special friend."

RFG disappears and "special friend" disappears, somebody will make that connection.

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.



RFG knew a number of people, but they also knew him. Someone would know about a "special friend" from his past, especially someone who knew him at the time he was with the "special friend."

RFG disappears and "special friend" disappears, somebody will make that connection.

I see your point of view. He was a mature man and likely, if he did walk away from his life, it was for multiple reasons which you've outlined very well in recent posts and previously as well.

You do a superb job with this and other case facts and questions. Thank you for tolerating me. Seriously.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I do want to expand on the differences in the cover of Mel Wiley and Ray Gricar; I think Jana raised the point, initially. I see two differences:

1. Commercial media (broadcast and print) in 1985 was much different that it was in 2005 (which now includes cable). I found out about Mel Wiley in the late summer of 1985 by reading Time magazine, 6 to 8 weeks after he disappeared. I found about RFG in the evening of 4/17 or 4/18/05, via cable news.

In 1985, there was one cable news network, CNN, but it was not as widely distributed as it became in the later 1980's. I had cable from two different companies in 1985; neither carried CNN. Perhaps the first really big story for CNN was the Challenger disaster in 1986.

To follow the Wiley case, someone would have to get a physical copies of the local newspapers outside of Cleveland or Akron. There was not continuing coverage in local papers, and there only that one

In 2005, we not only had CNN but several other news services. You could also read the local paper online and look at the local television broadcasts. You could (and I did) follow the news account from well outside of the area.

In short, it was easier and quicker to find out about the Gricar case than the Wiley case.

2. Social media has developed. Unless someone would go into a diner in Hinckley, Ohio, and converse with the locals, no one could talk with anyone about the case. At best, someone could have created a "Wiley Disappearance Study Group," and maybe get something beyond local attention.

In 2005, people could discuss the case, potentially rule things out, or even find new evidence. In the Gricar case, this has happened.

 

[SeekingJana]

I wonder why RFG talked about the Wiley disappearance and not others, like the infamous Judge Crater disappearance... ? Edited to add: I can remember pages for " Judge Crater" in restaurants and department stores in NYC when I was a child.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I wonder why RFG talked about the Wiley disappearance and not others, like the infamous Judge Crater disappearance... ? Edited to add: I can remember pages for " Judge Crater" in restaurants and department stores in NYC when I was a child.

Wiley was more recent and and the evidence indicated it was voluntary. Crater was in the 1930's I think, and may have been foul play.

 

[SeekingJana]

Wiley was more recent and and the evidence indicated it was voluntary. Crater was in the 1930's I think, and may have been foul play.

True.

 

[SeekingJana]

J.J., not sure if you've seen this piece from the Medina newspaper, but I think Wiley disappeared himself to San Francisco. The Buzz Around Town

It's a bit disconcerting that Mr. Wiley said to his long- time best friend, Detective Jim Bigam, " “nothing he had done in his life had worked out, or even had the potential to work out,” according to Bigam.
The piece is mostly talking about the death of Bigam in 2016, and how it's believed he knew Wiley's plans and actions after he left OH.

Wiley was writing a book about the site. Burnt Cabins, PA, when he disappeared.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I had heard the story; it was known that he was interested in the San Fransisco area.

The case that Wiley was intrigued with is the 1966 kidnapping of Peggy Ann Bandnick: Kidnapping of Peggy Ann Bradnick - Wikipedia

It doesn't have any ties to Centre County. There is basically nothing at Burnt Cabins, except a post office, a grist mill, a few houses and a bar and grill.

 

[SeekingJana]

I had heard the story; it was known that he was interested in the San Fransisco area.

The case that Wiley was intrigued with is the 1966 kidnapping of Peggy Ann Bandnick: Kidnapping of Peggy Ann Bradnick - Wikipedia

It doesn't have any ties to Centre County. There is basically nothing at Burnt Cabins, except a post office, a grist mill, a few houses and a bar and grill.

Oh, I have no clue about what Burnt Cabins is except an early settlement, then burned, and some murders have occurred there centuries later, at or close to what once was a town. The Wiki on the place is about the most drab and lifeless thing I've read about anywhere. The person submitting it must really not be into early American history, LOL.
I didn't say it was anywhere near Centre Co. I know little about PA except Philly and Johnstown, for historical reasons. I love American history.

However, the article I linked from Medina, OH, states clearly that Mel Wiley was researching another murder which happened at the crossroads which is designated as being " Burnt Cabins", PA. ( And if I type that " Burt Cabins" one more time, I'm gonna get a bit concerned here, ha).