PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[BigCat]

On April 1, 2011, I received a personal message from Steve Sloane on Facebook. It was unsolicted. At the time I was writing a blog on Ray Gricar at another paper.


In the message, Sloane indicated that he was involved in the 1998 case with Gricar. He stated that it "RG's decision NOT to prosecute if he received help with the problem... "


After the Freeh Report came out, I became worried that the investigators did not know of this. I got in contract with the investigators and turned this information over to them in August 2012.

I will be willing to post a copy of the message, with the mod's consent. It will involve me revealing my own identity.

The million dollar question is with whom did RFG reach that agreement with.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped

and that means another person.

I think if he was in witness protection they would have taken care of his hard drive .

they should go over the car again for dna, blood, trace evidence.

I still find his girlfriend so suspicious, I don't know why but she just rubs me.

It could have been a smoking person leaning into the car.

The PSP processed the car. Fingerprints were smudged, except for a middle finger one on the door; it was RFG's. No evidence of a a wipe down. There was a bottle of water in the car; it had DNA in it. It was RFG's. No blood. No evidence of a struggle. The outside of the car was clean.

PEF was accounted for the entire day. She was the first person I looked at.

PEF would have needed a two hour gap to get from Bellefonte to Lewisburg and back again; that is basically to go there, turn around, and drive back. She doesn't have a two hour gap for the day.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The million dollar question is with whom did RFG reach that agreement with.

Yes. And I didn't ask, because i didn't quite believe it.

 

[SeekingJana]

It appears that 2 Missing Persons cases are just now getting huge breaks because... suspects and/ or their formerly close associates are starting to talk.
" Loose lips sink ships" and all that.

One is the Tara Grinstead disappearance, now believed to be a murder on the night of her disappearance.Oct.22, 2005.

The other is Brittanee Drexel, who disappeared while on Spring Break in Myrtle Beach, SC, April 2009.

One of two suspects believed to be in police custody in the Grinstead case talked to an old girlfriend.

In the Drexel case, once again, an " associate" of the alleged killers has come forward to say that she was abducted, raped, murdered, and " fed to the alligators", which is not believed to be the actual disposition of the body.

Both were pretty young women, not 59 year old seasoned judiciary. The young women were naive, pretty, and likely easy targets. Mr. Gricar would not be the same type of victim, of course, but once again, with the break in the Drexel case, and the gag order placed in the Grinstead case with the arrest of the second suspect, there is reason to pause for thought.

Will a credible source end the waiting and the wondering.about Ray Gricar in our collective lifetimes?
This more or less assumes that he is dead from foul play, but it could be that he was alive in another place, living a life of his choice, and died a natural death at some point.

I will be the age he was when he disappeared in a few months, and now, it does NOT seem old at all, nor does it seem to fit " retirement age" with a semi-committed live- in lover, and no plans for the future, really.
He had few real ties to his own life and future in Bellefonte. I can see having a "mid- life crisis" at 59 in the 21st century. Not that he did, but that at this age, almost 59 years old, I want so many things for my future.If I didn't have them, I'd desperately yearn for a committed and loving life partner, a house that is truly home, roots in shared long- distance travel, in close shared friendships, in making memories that are full of fun and meaning and more than make up for the 80 hour work weeks for years!!... Life is all about making memories, and we really are never too old.. if our memory is intact, as I believe his was.

Did he get the chance to get away from small town Bellefonte or did someone evil take his life? These are the only two scenarios that I consider to be likely at this time. I do not believe he committed suicide ( no body) nor had an accident ( again, no body).
Murder without a body is not that rare, as we are now seeing in the Grinstead and Drexel cases which are breaking wide open simultaneously.

They say the important things happen in 3's, y'all. I think we're seen 2 cases in the 2000's section being solved right now. Will someone who knows finally tell something about Ray, if anyone does know?
There is not one day in my life that I do not think of him and pray for him. Sometimes, it feels lonely.. but he deserves one candle at one window burning for him, and maybe there are many more who always remember him and his baffling case, but don't speak out.

 

[Trackergd]

If there is a core group who would not mind spending a long day and possibly a night in Lewisburg, we can do "some" things to look at this case. A walk of the area as JJ has done may give a fresh perspective. I have an eye for points of egress and the ability to quickly search wooded areas if we can gain access. I also now have two forensic ground probes with two more on the way. I also am waiting for delivery of one of the highest rated forensic metal detectors with a special search coil. Right now would have been an opportune time since it is warm enough and the weeds, vines and poison ivy have not started to grow, however I have to finish investigating the Lauren Jackson case first and have a heavy workload at my job. Fall will be the next opportunity. I really believe we need a multi pronged approach to this. One is a boots on the ground evaluation of the PLS, including the parking lot, SOS and all other areas of interest with photographic documentation. Next is driving the RFG route from Bellefonte to Lewisburg, noting any spots of interest along the route, again with photographic documentation. Next is a deep forensics analysis of all RFG's finances, including what I purchased and what JJ has. Last is a search of the wooded areas around the PLS. Later we can take a look at the parking lot where one employee claimed to see RFG after he went missing, checking camera angle etc if possible and such things as other points of egress including air, road and sea.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I might be able to join you, if my health hold out.

 

[minazoe]

unless someone helped her cover something from that night, the night before.

but yes, probably unlikely, but she has an odd demeanor, I think you would agree with me there.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

unless someone helped her cover something from that night, the night before.

but yes, probably unlikely, but she has an odd demeanor, I think you would agree with me there.

No, I don't. While I would call PEF insular, I don't think there was or is anything odd in her demeanor.

A few weeks after the disappearance, two DA from other counties, Ted McKnight and Bob Buehner, contacted her and asked to meet with them to discuss the disappearance. PEF agreed and they spent four hours talking to her over dinner. Buehner told me she was "guileless."

If I has something to hide, the last people I'd want to talk to about it are two DA's. If there was something there, the PSP or these two DA's would have spotted it.

In addition, she passed a polygraph.

Since numerous people saw RFG on 4/15, the night before is an impossibility. On the evening of 4/15, PEF made numerous calls to RFG's cell. They went to voicemail. The records would show from where the call was placed. It wasn't en route from Lewisburg.

 

[Tulsalawyer81]

Extremely interesting case. I know about 1/1000th what JJ knows about this, but I have a gut feeling that this guy just up and left for one reason or another...but my feeling is that it was personal choice. I feel like there are so many red herrings in this case stemming from the fact that RFG was a prosecutor. So many leads to chase down. So many bad guys in his past. But it seems to me that this was a guy who was just disillusioned with life. I have a feeling that he was saving/hiding money and left just enough in his account to cover his affairs. His daughter (might have?) been able to cash in on some or all of his pension, so she'd potentially be cared for with that or life insurance. I think he was planning to leave and used the ex-girlfriend to help him. He knew from experience that his computer would be searched, so he ditched his laptop on the way out, which he probably used to set up his disappearance. I seriously doubt his desire to get rid of the info on the hard drive had to do with anything more than wanting to cover his tracks. Nothing illegal...wasn't because he was afraid people would get a hold of his work files. Web searches about how to wipe a computer clean lead to more questions than answers, so he knew he'd be ok using his home computer to do that.

But this was a guy who had been unlucky in love...he had the trauma of dealing with the suicide of a family member...and he was about to leave his job, which essentially came to be his identity. While he might have loved his girlfriend, I'm not sure he loved her enough to overcome his depression and the demons he was carrying around from a life of prosecuting bad guys. As a prosecutor, you deal with a lot of stuff that is hard to forget. I feel for him because there were times I've felt like I could just run away and hide and be alone. I moved away from my family and have quit a legal job or two to try to rid myself of much of the baggage without having to confront it. Maybe he was just worn down. It was all coming to an end and he just wanted to be left alone. It's almost a cruel thought to have, but I can see him being pushed to that point. Just my opinion...not even an educated one at that.

Hope for the family's sake that there is closure one day.

 

[Kittybunny]

Extremely interesting case. I know about 1/1000th what JJ knows about this, but I have a gut feeling that this guy just up and left for one reason or another...but my feeling is that it was personal choice. I feel like there are so many red herrings in this case stemming from the fact that RFG was a prosecutor. So many leads to chase down. So many bad guys in his past. But it seems to me that this was a guy who was just disillusioned with life. I have a feeling that he was saving/hiding money and left just enough in his account to cover his affairs. His daughter (might have?) been able to cash in on some or all of his pension, so she'd potentially be cared for with that or life insurance. I think he was planning to leave and used the ex-girlfriend to help him. He knew from experience that his computer would be searched, so he ditched his laptop on the way out, which he probably used to set up his disappearance. I seriously doubt his desire to get rid of the info on the hard drive had to do with anything more than wanting to cover his tracks. Nothing illegal...wasn't because he was afraid people would get a hold of his work files. Web searches about how to wipe a computer clean lead to more questions than answers, so he knew he'd be ok using his home computer to do that.

But this was a guy who had been unlucky in love...he had the trauma of dealing with the suicide of a family member...and he was about to leave his job, which essentially came to be his identity. While he might have loved his girlfriend, I'm not sure he loved her enough to overcome his depression and the demons he was carrying around from a life of prosecuting bad guys. As a prosecutor, you deal with a lot of stuff that is hard to forget. I feel for him because there were times I've felt like I could just run away and hide and be alone. I moved away from my family and have quit a legal job or two to try to rid myself of much of the baggage without having to confront it. Maybe he was just worn down. It was all coming to an end and he just wanted to be left alone. It's almost a cruel thought to have, but I can see him being pushed to that point. Just my opinion...not even an educated one at that.

Hope for the family's sake that there is closure one day.

Thank you so much for your personal perspective on this case. I have followed this case from day one from the old insessions boards (kelloggirl was my Nic) on which Tony Gricar, Ray's brother used to post with us, to now, and I don't feel that I have any more answers today than I did then. However over time I do feel that I am much more open to the possibility of walk away than I was at the time, at which I was much more adamant that foul play was involved.

Your post definitely provides some insights as to what his mindset might have been if he did choose that route. It is appreciated. I too, hope that someday there will be resolution. I had followed the Tara Grinstead case as well and had all but given up hope on that one ever being solved and lo and behold, there were finally arrests not too long ago, so you never know!


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[J. J. in Phila]

Thank you so much for your personal perspective on this case. I have followed this case from day one from the old insessions boards (kelloggirl was my Nic) on which Tony Gricar, Ray's brother used to post with us, to now, and I don't feel that I have any more answers today than I did then. However over time I do feel that I am much more open to the possibility of walk away than I was at the time, at which I was much more adamant that foul play was involved.

Your post definitely provides some insights as to what his mindset might have been if he did choose that route. It is appreciated. I too, hope that someday there will be resolution. I had followed the Tara Grinstead case as well and had all but given up hope on that one ever being solved and lo and behold, there were finally arrests not too long ago, so you never know!


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I think we do know more than we did in 2005-08.

1. We found out that RFG wanted to get rid of the data on his laptop.

2. We have a very good indication that RFG was planning to go to Lewisburg (and Raystown Lake).

3. We know that RFG was seen (and talked to) on the morning of 4/15/05.

4. We also have a better timeline of both 4/14 and 4/15.

5. We have a clearer picture of RFG's assets.

Now, that is all enough to eliminate some theories.

 

[Kittybunny]

I think we do know more than we did in 2005-08.

1. We found out that RFG wanted to get rid of the data on his laptop.

2. We have a very good indication that RFG was planning to go to Lewisburg (and Raystown Lake).

3. We know that RFG was seen (and talked to) on the morning of 4/15/05.

4. We also have a better timeline of both 4/14 and 4/15.

5. We have a clearer picture of RFG's assets.

Now, that is all enough to eliminate some theories.

You're right, I should have not said since Day 1; I guess I should have since this stopped being an active investigation. For me, the newest info has been the assets, as well as all the PSU/Sandusky things. Still not sure whether the latter is a factor at all.


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[Trackergd]

JJ,

Is it possible to pinpoint the exact locations where the laptop and the hard drive were found? Any GPS coordinates?

Also did the individual at Raystown lake indicate the particular spot that he ran into RFG?

Curious about a couple of things. One being that it is possible that RFG did throw something into Raystown lake. Would like to narrow the search area a bit.

Second is that tossing something into the center of a large lake would all but prevent it ever being located, other than pure chance by a diver, notably if there was a layer of silt on top. Only challenge would to be renting a boat to get it way out in a deep spot. To me the lake is a better dumping spot than the river.

 

[Trackergd]

The CD was introduced in 1982. The USB flash drive was introduced in 2000. While both were available, I am not aware of what RFG's laptop had in the way of drives and USB ports. It has been reported to be an "older" computer. I doubt small rural counties had cutting edge hardware and software. I am really starting to wonder if RFG was tossing more than just the laptop and hard drive. It is possible that evidence is spread around in different water features in the region. Spring Creek is very close...runs thru town. Foster Joseph Sayers lake is a short drive as is Colyer lake. All closer than Raystown and Lewisburg. So there are two threads to tug at here. Why drive so far to Raytstown and Lewisburg when other suitable water features were available? That goes to distance from Bellefonte as well as destruction, and that keeps bringing me back to what in the heck was so sensitive on that laptop. To me we have deception (distance and outright lying to PF if what we know about the phone call is true), destruction of County owned property (a crime in itself, albeit a minor one, but odd for an officer of the legal system) and destruction of as yet unknown electronic information. None of this paints a pretty picture, even if "others" were not involved. Ask yourself, what rises to this level?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ,

Is it possible to pinpoint the exact locations where the laptop and the hard drive were found? Any GPS coordinates?

Also did the individual at Raystown lake indicate the particular spot that he ran into RFG?

Curious about a couple of things. One being that it is possible that RFG did throw something into Raystown lake. Would like to narrow the search area a bit.

Second is that tossing something into the center of a large lake would all but prevent it ever being located, other than pure chance by a diver, notably if there was a layer of silt on top. Only challenge would to be renting a boat to get it way out in a deep spot. To me the lake is a better dumping spot than the river.

Exact, to the inch? I doubt it. Within 10'-20' radius? Yes. Remember that neither were discovered by the police,

RFG was reported to be seen at a boat launch. There are eleven. http://www.raystownlake.com/boating.htm

Interesting that you mentioned boats. There is apparently a "season" where you can rent boats. I've been told that the season had not started on 4/14. Looking at some of the larger ones, like houseboats, the season was Memorial Day to Labor Day. I remember the reporter covering it said that the season for some boats would have started that weekend.

I'm sure it is the police files, but I do not have access.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The CD was introduced in 1982. The USB flash drive was introduced in 2000. While both were available, I am not aware of what RFG's laptop had in the way of drives and USB ports. It has been reported to be an "older" computer. I doubt small rural counties had cutting edge hardware and software. I am really starting to wonder if RFG was tossing more than just the laptop and hard drive. It is possible that evidence is spread around in different water features in the region. Spring Creek is very close...runs thru town. Foster Joseph Sayers lake is a short drive as is Colyer lake. All closer than Raystown and Lewisburg. So there are two threads to tug at here. Why drive so far to Raytstown and Lewisburg when other suitable water features were available? That goes to distance from Bellefonte as well as destruction, and that keeps bringing me back to what in the heck was so sensitive on that laptop. To me we have deception (distance and outright lying to PF if what we know about the phone call is true), destruction of County owned property (a crime in itself, albeit a minor one, but odd for an officer of the legal system) and destruction of as yet unknown electronic information. None of this paints a pretty picture, even if "others" were not involved. Ask yourself, what rises to this level?

The distance could be because RFG did not want associated with him.

I'll give you a scenario:

RFG wants to destroy the data on the laptop by destroying the laptop; he was planning to return home after doing it. When he retires, he reports it lost and reimburses the county (which would not be more than $200-$400).

He plans to toss it in Raystown Lake, but he runs into someone he knows and/or can't a boat. He returns to the office, a bit annoyed, and forcefully closes the door to his office, whenever going in and out. JKA hears this.

The next day, he goes to another spot, Lewisburg, and disposes of the laptop.

Why does he do this? Well, because it won't be tied to him directly. If someone finds it, they may just toss back in the water. If RFG is sitting in his office in July, when the laptop was found, he just says that somebody must have picked it up after he lost it. Nobody would be looking for the hard drive.

Sure, it is possible that RFG was looking at something nasty on the computer, but it is just as possible he had financial data, or even employee information that he wasn't comfortable about possibly being discovered. He didn't give out personal information, so it could be stuff that we would not have a problem revealing ourselves.

The laptop did have a CD drive. Though we have no way of knowing, everything that was on his laptop might have been transferred to his home computer

One of the differences is that RFG could not have had a set time to be at Raystown Lake. He could not have known when the Prison Board Meeting would end.

 

[Trackergd]

The distance could be because RFG did not want associated with him.

I'll give you a scenario:

RFG wants to destroy the data on the laptop by destroying the laptop; he was planning to return home after doing it. When he retires, he reports it lost and reimburses the county (which would not be more than $200-$400).

He plans to toss it in Raystown Lake, but he runs into someone he knows and/or can't a boat. He returns to the office, a bit annoyed, and forcefully closes the door to his office, whenever going in and out. JKA hears this.

That scenario only marginally works for me.

The next day, he goes to another spot, Lewisburg, and disposes of the laptop.

Why does he do this? Well, because it won't be tied to him directly. If someone finds it, they may just toss back in the water. If RFG is sitting in his office in July, when the laptop was found, he just says that somebody must have picked it up after he lost it. Nobody would be looking for the hard drive.

Sure, it is possible that RFG was looking at something nasty on the computer, but it is just as possible he had financial data, or even employee information that he wasn't comfortable about possibly being discovered. He didn't give out personal information, so it could be stuff that we would not have a problem revealing ourselves.

The laptop did have a CD drive. Though we have no way of knowing, everything that was on his laptop might have been transferred to his home computer

With all due respect, in my mind, none of this rises to the level of lying to PF about what he was up to and driving that far when there are other water features closer that have a low risk of being detected. Still goes to why did he not want to be seen disposing of the data? Had to dispose of the data because it was either damning, illegal or both, and did not want to be seen and identified doing it for the same reasons.

 

[Trackergd]

I still keep coming back to victim #1. Sensitive information that would have haunted him in his retirement for not going after JS and PSU. Also a good argument for the suicide theory. Only question I have is if a payoff was involved or not. Before anyone has a hissy fit, look at the current Philadelphia DA mess. Lots more just like it. No matter how honest and forthwrite some one appears, are no sacred cows in public service positions.

He was not seen with anyone other than the mystery woman, so I am less inclined to think he was murdered.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That scenario only marginally works for me.



With all due respect, in my mind, none of this rises to the level of lying to PF about what he was up to and driving that far when there are other water features closer that have a low risk of being detected. Still goes to why did he not want to be seen disposing of the data? Had to dispose of the data because it was either damning, illegal or both, and did not want to be seen and identified doing it for the same reasons.

As I said, it could be something nasty. Maybe he was going to a site like "Hot Croatian Babes," or something like that (I have no idea if that is a real site, or not). He might not have wanted others to have known that. Maybe it some type of on line chat room. He was an adult and, unless they are underage, it was legal. It might be something he'd want broadcast across the county, however.

We have found out that a number of judges and prosecutor do look at that type of stuff. PA had two Supreme Court Justices that resigned over it.

 

[minazoe]

In reality, other than Olivia Newton John's boyfriend, isn't disappearing oneself rather rare? Not too many people walk away and just disappear off the face of the earth or fake a death or suicide...just to leave their life behind...maybe if they are running from something or they are in serious trouble, but really? has anyone here ever known someone who bailed like this? Alchoholics , dopers and hobos..but usually they are known for disappearing, they are homeless or have mental illness and someone in the family or a friend will know or have an idea where they might be.

if it's WPP, it must have been a very , very serious situation and he will never be able to emerge again or his life would be in serious danger.
and with no one being convinced he is dead, then i would think PEF and his daughter would be potential targets for retaliation.

the things Ray was doing before he disappeared tell us something was urgent, something was pressing...I never knew he made two attempts to dispose of the laptop...think of it, he was willfully driving around trying to dump this stuff..

the cigarette ash. someone smoking leaning into the car from the passenger side window?

did he then get into a car that drove away?

or did he take a walk with this person into the woods?

and why won't this person come forward?

if it was a suicide and you talked to Ray in Lewisberg out by his car in the parking lot, why not come forward? where is this person?

the police need to examine all the possible ways the ash could have gotten there.






I dont..