PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

[Ozoner]

First, there would be less money if he died after retiring. Second, the estate value is low for someone grossing RFG was making, so there is a question of if there is more money out there.

There would be less money if he died after retiring, but he could have lived and collected benefits for twenty or thirty years. The idea that he would have faked his death in order to give his heirs some money doesn't make much sense. If he was planning to walk away from his life for some other reason, then faking his death might make sense. The money angle makes no sense whatsoever as a primary motivation for walking away. If he walked away for some other reason, we don't know what that is; no plausible motive has been proposed so far as I know. All signs point to a genuine suicide.

 

[Ozoner]

First, there would be less money if he died after retiring. Second, the estate value is low for someone grossing RFG was making, so there is a question of if there is more money out there.

There would be less money if he died after retiring, but he could have lived and collected benefits for twenty or thirty years. The idea that he would have faked his death in order to give his heirs some money doesn't make much sense. If he was planning to walk away from his life for some other reason, then faking his death might make sense. The money angle makes no sense whatsoever as a primary motivation for walking away. If he walked away for some other reason, we don't know what that is; no plausible motive has been proposed so far as I know. All signs point to a genuine suicide.

 

[skoogmagoo]

There would be less money if he died after retiring, but he could have lived and collected benefits for twenty or thirty years. The idea that he would have faked his death in order to give his heirs some money doesn't make much sense. If he was planning to walk away from his life for some other reason, then faking his death might make sense. The money angle makes no sense whatsoever as a primary motivation for walking away. If he walked away for some other reason, we don't know what that is; no plausible motive has been proposed so far as I know. All signs point to a genuine suicide.

I think suicide is the least likely. We had two recent suicides near a river where I live. Both people left their car door unlocked, with the keys in them. When someone locks their car and takes the keys, it means they plan to come back.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Could and would are two different things. Knowing what it would be if he "died" before retiring that a rather large fixed amount would be there may be preferable to not knowing how much they would get.

I often say that there is no shortage of potential motives for voluntarily departing. This is one of them. This would be a motive for suicide as well.

If RFG's disappearance was due to a voluntarily action, there could be a number of motives to do so.

 

[Ozoner]

I think suicide is the least likely. We had two recent suicides near a river where I live. Both people left their car door unlocked, with the keys in them. When someone locks their car and takes the keys, it means they plan to come back.

Two anecdotal incidents isn't a heck of a lot of proof. I suppose you could also say that the locked car argues against a walk away as much as it argues against suicide.

 

[Ozoner]

Could and would are two different things. Knowing what it would be if he "died" before retiring that a rather large fixed amount would be there may be preferable to not knowing how much they would get.

I often say that there is no shortage of potential motives for voluntarily departing. This is one of them. This would be a motive for suicide as well.

If RFG's disappearance was due to a voluntarily action, there could be a number of motives to do so.

It isn't a plausible motive for disappearing. You'd have to believe that he was concerned about leaving his heirs money but not concerned about creating a six-year legal nightmare for them with respect to acquiring that money and a never-ending nightmare in terms of wondering what happened to him.
You'd also have to believe that a man who spent his life prosecuting criminals ended his career by commiting insurance fraud.
The theory doesn't hold water.

 

[Valiant]

I don't think it's a good idea to assume that someone in the mindset to either walk away or commit a hidden suicide is going to act and think rationally and logically.
I'm not sure what happened. I don't even have a favorite theory. But assume he thought there was grave misdeed in his past. By disappearing, he could all but eliminate the chance his pension might be invalidated due to past misbehavior. Problem is, I think we'd have some idea of such a situation by now.
All I can say is it appears there was some sort of pressure and a certain amount of illogical behavior.

 

[Ozoner]

I don't think it's a good idea to assume that someone in the mindset to either walk away or commit a hidden suicide is going to act and thin rationally and logically.
I'm not sure what happened. I don't even have a favorite theory. But assume he thought there was grave misdeed in his past. By disappearing, he could all but eliminate the chance his pension might be invalidated due to past misbehavior. Problem is, I think we'd have some idea of such a situation by now.
All I can say is it appears there was some sort of pressure and a certain amount of illogical behavior.

Despite all the cloak-and-dagger theories, it was probably very mundane. A middle-aged man whose identity had been closely tied to his job function was about to retire, and he had a family history of depression and suicide.

I'd like to pose one question to members: if this was a suicide, was it pure chance that his body wasn't found, or did he take pains to ensure that his body wouldn't be found?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Despite all the cloak-and-dagger theories, it was probably very mundane. A middle-aged man whose identity had been closely tied to his job function was about to retire, and he had a family history of depression and suicide.

I'd like to pose one question to members: if this was a suicide, was it pure chance that his body wasn't found, or did he take pains to ensure that his body wouldn't be found?

First, as I have pointed out, a lot of the evidence points to something voluntary. Both suicide and walkaway are voluntary, so they would have some similar characteristics.

Second, about 100,000 adults disappear each year. 2018 NCIC Missing Person and Unidentified Person Statistics | Federal Bureau of Investigation Less than 50,000 commit suicide, though they tend to be under reported. https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/2018-ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics.pdf/view

It would be difficult for RFG to plan some method too hide his body. First, it is generally difficult to hide successfully after dying, though it is possible. Second, RFG did not know what Lewisburg looked like on that day. Assume that he was going to get into a dumpster (as was suggested in another case). Would the dumpster be exactly where he thought it would be, had it just been emptied, would someone see getting into it. Third, the searching was extensive. Why wouldn't someone check the dumpster, why wouldn't the body be spotted from the air, and why wouldn't the bloodhound find it?

It would have to be random.

 

[Valiant]

It is possible, IF he intended to walk away that the information he wanted destroyed on the computer was related to that, not any work secrets.

 

[hot cawfeee]

wow...total call back !!! I have not thought of this case in years and am glad that Ray is still much in discussion.

 

[Trackergd]

But assume he thought there was grave misdeed in his past. By disappearing, he could all but eliminate the chance his pension might be invalidated due to past misbehavior. Problem is, I think we'd have some idea of such a situation by now.

Respectfully snipped.

I would not be too sure about that. You are getting warmer...

Using measurements from a MINI and a laptop, as well as the measurements from a concrete barricade like is seen on the bridge, it is probable that it would take a real effort to toss the laptop off the bridge from the drivers side. I have not yet been able to try it for real and prove it one way or the other.

Ray was seen fiddling with the laptop in the park. Given the hard drive was found removed from the laptop and in a different spot, it is clear that Ray was getting rid of evidence. Of what is still in question. Also supported by his online searches of "how to fry a hard drive" and use of a hard drive wiping software program. Ray was determined that what ever was on that hard drive would never see the light of day. It goes past his case work which he could have had wiped by the County IT staff. He had not been using the laptop and it had been in a closet at this home.

I had a forensics accountant review the package of financial information I got from the county under freedom of information. The accountant said it was "unusual and begged a few questions" for someone of Ray's income.

 

[Kittybunny]

First, as I have pointed out, a lot of the evidence points to something voluntary. Both suicide and walkaway are voluntary, so they would have some similar characteristics.

Second, about 100,000 adults disappear each year. 2018 NCIC Missing Person and Unidentified Person Statistics | Federal Bureau of Investigation Less than 50,000 commit suicide, though they tend to be under reported. https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/2018-ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics.pdf/view

It would be difficult for RFG to plan some method too hide his body. First, it is generally difficult to hide successfully after dying, though it is possible. Second, RFG did not know what Lewisburg looked like on that day. Assume that he was going to get into a dumpster (as was suggested in another case). Would the dumpster be exactly where he thought it would be, had it just been emptied, would someone see getting into it. Third, the searching was extensive. Why wouldn't someone check the dumpster, why wouldn't the body be spotted from the air, and why wouldn't the bloodhound find it?

It would have to be random.

Heavily wooded areas would definitely be an option. Many times bodies are not found for a long time, until come upon by hunters. The question is, could he have easily walked to an area wooded or secluded enough to conceal his body, without being seen by any other witnesses that day?

And again, that still leaves the question of why the dogs did not pick up his scent beyond the immediate perimeter of the car.

 

[Kittybunny]

Heavily wooded areas would definitely be an option. Many times bodies are not found for a long time, until come upon by hunters. The question is, could he have easily walked to an area wooded or secluded enough to conceal his body, without being seen by any other witnesses that day?

Respectfully snipped.

I would not be too sure about that. You are getting warmer...

Using measurements from a MINI and a laptop, as well as the measurements from a concrete barricade like is seen on the bridge, it is probable that it would take a real effort to toss the laptop off the bridge from the drivers side. I have not yet been able to try it for real and prove it one way or the other.

Ray was seen fiddling with the laptop in the park. Given the hard drive was found removed from the laptop and in a different spot, it is clear that Ray was getting rid of evidence. Of what is still in question. Also supported by his online searches of "how to fry a hard drive" and use of a hard drive wiping software program. Ray was determined that what ever was on that hard drive would never see the light of day. It goes past his case work which he could have had wiped by the County IT staff. He had not been using the laptop and it had been in a closet at this home.

I had a forensics accountant review the package of financial information I got from the county under freedom of information. The accountant said it was "unusual and begged a few questions" for someone of Ray's income.

Great stuff, and a great reminder. Interesting about the finances. I hope you can come back and share more details. In the meantime, I think for my own benefit I would like to compile my own set of examples of voluntary disappearances that at first seemed like there was no way that they would turn out that way.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Heavily wooded areas would definitely be an option. Many times bodies are not found for a long time, until come upon by hunters. The question is, could he have easily walked to an area wooded or secluded enough to conceal his body, without being seen by any other witnesses that day?

And again, that still leaves the question of why the dogs did not pick up his scent beyond the immediate perimeter of the car.

Yes, across the river is fairly large wooded area. Part of it is the Montandon Marsh: https://conserveland.org/blog/story/conserving-montandon-marsh/ There is also a gravel company, which has a large pond. The riverbank is wooded.

The area can be accessed by foot. Someone can walk it, crossing the river along the walkway on the bridge. It is about a half mile walk from where the Mini was found.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

At the time, in order to lose his pension, RFG would have had to engaged in criminal activity that was tied to his official duties. If he robbed a bank or something, he would still collect his pension. They changed the law since, but it did not apply retroactively. Jerry Sandusky still gets his pension, in prison.

 

[Ozoner]

At the time, in order to lose his pension, RFG would have had to engaged in criminal activity that was tied to his official duties. If he robbed a bank or something, he would still collect his pension. They changed the law since, but it did not apply retroactively. Jerry Sandusky still gets his pension, in prison.

There are plenty of non-criminal things that someone might want to hide. Maybe he wrote journal entries about wanting to kill himself, and he didn't want his family members to see those journal entries. Maybe he was bisexual and didn't want anyone to know. Maybe he'd been having a sexual relationship with a friend's wife. The possibilities are endless.

 

[minazoe]

so strange the way he literally had to leave town to trash the laptop. I think about PF and her weird interview on television, and about the slammed door at the office, Ray careening around in the mini, a sense of tension or anxiety. Security cam footage. And that house..that bare bones house... I know people can be frugal and there's nothing wrong with that...

but no clues, no laments, comments, telling moments.

I don't buy the "just wanted to scrub it because of his occupation" . Nope.. I think that laptop would lead straight to something Ray wanted hidden...urgently hidden.


mOO

 

[Ozoner]

so strange the way he literally had to leave town to trash the laptop. I think about PF and her weird interview on television, and about the slammed door at the office, Ray careening around in the mini, a sense of tension or anxiety. Security cam footage. And that house..that bare bones house... I know people can be frugal and there's nothing wrong with that...

but no clues, no laments, comments, telling moments.

I don't buy the "just wanted to scrub it because of his occupation" . Nope.. I think that laptop would lead straight to something Ray wanted hidden...urgently hidden.


mOO

Had any of Ray's convictions been overturned in the months before his disappearance? The one misdeed many prosecutors commit is concealing exculpatory evidence from the defense—especially when they're sure the perp is guilty but are worried that he might walk because the evidence is flimsy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Had any of Ray's convictions been overturned in the months before his disappearance? The one misdeed many prosecutors commit is concealing exculpatory evidence from the defense—especially when they're sure the perp is guilty but are worried that he might walk because the evidence is flimsy.

No. In 2003, he was sanctioned by a judge for trying to get a defense witness to withdraw, but he wasn't sanctioned by the bar. He wasn't planning to practice after retirement.

He lost his last major case, manslaughter.