PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[J. J. in Phila]

I cant get my mind of this case. I searched the internet all week and found so much info and lot of other forums, articles etc. RG seems like a very decent man. I know I posted that if he walked away it was because of something illegal but I wrote that because I dont think he would walk unless he was ashamed by something. I dont think he walked.

I've looked at RFG's record and I never found a hint of corruption.

It is a mistake, however, to assume that the only reason he'd leave was if he was corrupt.

How many guys move into their gfriends house , pay off their mortgage and buy them a car??? A guy that carries more than their load. Maybe his load was too heavy in his mind.

This is part of the problem. This was someone who left no loose ends on 4/15/05. The car was in his girlfriend's name, but he drove it almost exclusively. He said that it was in case he was sued. The thing is, the county carried liability insurance for all of his official acts.

IMHO , this is an impulsive suicide. He looks so worked in his last photos. Im not sure that google had aerial in 2005 re mapping, but I was creeped out to be able to pull up Water street and see it, along with the bridge, the fact you can walk behind the SOS and reach the water etc.
He could have parked at the museum, walked out on the bridge, threw the laptop, moved the car, smoked a cig, shopped at the shop, chatted with a beautiful woman, walked out back threw the hardrive, and walked to his destiny. I find it interesting that the river was exceptionally high that time of year.

Walking on the bridge would be difficult on that side; the walkway is on the other side. He could have tossed it from the Mini, if he was heading west (into Lewisburg).

RFG did not have a history of smoking and the ash was on the passenger side floor.

LE did at least a half dozen searches of the Susquehanna, some all the way to Harrisburg. These included searches along the bank, divers, boats, helicopter, and a cadaver dog. No body was found. I have yet find one modern account of a body going into the river at that point that was not recovered. They just found the body of Phylicia Barns in the lower Susquehanna last month. I do not believe he was ever in the river (that doesn't rule out suicide, however).

The problem is the witnesses.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Your summation fits my initial belief to the "T" I just don't want to believe it's true. Ditto about the "Water Street" sign -- that gave me a shiver too...

The problem with "Water Street" is that may towns in the area have streets with that name, including Bellefonte (which has a relatively shallow creek) and Centre Hall (I've yet find anything there except a stream).

Basically, most towns with bridges along the Susquehanna from Lock Haven down to Sunbury would have the similar characteristics to the site of Roy Gricar's suicide.

 

[ThePhantom]

I'd also like to believe that the search dogs would have been able to track him to the bridge or river -- but I guess search dogs are not perfect either.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'd also like to believe that the search dogs would have been able to track him to the bridge or river -- but I guess search dogs are not perfect either.

It wasn't so much that the dog could follow the trail beyond the parking lot. It was that LE brought in a different dog, a cadaver dog (several days later), and still couldn't find the body.

 

[ThePhantom]

Now that's interesting. And I'm pretty sure with the high profile nature of this case, they would have searched that river up and down, huge though it be. Whatever RG was up to, he had a plan -- because he made sure he knew how to erase that hard drive, he made sure Patty knew he wouldn't be back to feed the dog, and he seemed to make sure she wouldn't be left with financial problems. Any chance RG may have had an undisclosed medical condition? I'm sure this question has been asked before. And would his physician be allowed to divulge such information if he did?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now that's interesting. And I'm pretty sure with the high profile nature of this case, they would have searched that river up and down, huge though it be. Whatever RG was up to, he had a plan -- because he made sure he knew how to erase that hard drive, he made sure Patty knew he wouldn't be back to feed the dog, and he seemed to make sure she wouldn't be left with financial problems. Any chance RG may have had an undisclosed medical condition? I'm sure this question has been asked before. And would his physician be allowed to divulge such information if he did?

The erasure/destruction might have been coincidental. He'd been wanting to get rid of the date for about a year prior to his disappearance, and, as pointed out, there were no major rivers in Bellefonte. He might have thought, **I'll be in Lewisburg because of ________, and there is a river. Even if somebody finds it, they'll never bother to recover the data. While I'm down there, I'll toss the drive.**

The question might be, what goes in that blank?

If there was something scheduled in Lewisburg, that might explain why he didn't wait to let the dog out.

According to LE, there was nothing in his medical files.

 

[RTC]

Im a dog lover, but they disappoint in missing cases frequently.
Does anyone know what Rays parents died from? Was Roy his only sibling?

I read somewhere that a casette tape was found behind one of the wheels of the mini. if true, I find that odd, maybe a clue that the car hadnt moved since placed there.? it also seems strange that the mini wasnt noticed when someone locked up the SOS shops or when someone opened up the shops. Noone seems to know if it was left overnight. It makes me believe the witnesses at the shop were not as aware as we might hope. I am from CA, and when you look at the courthouse video of Ray on 04/14 , it makes you realize how small and intimate the setting is. The SOS area is the same. Very small town compared to what I am use to.
I find it very surprising that The Judge and Fenton sighting were discounted. I think we need to go back there and try to figure out what they think they saw. If it was Ray in another car, why would he come back after he supposedly was trying to walk away? I hope that PF work computer was searched. If it was a walkawy the planning had to happen somewhere. Does anyone think the Smith Guy could have been an accomplice? Camping in April, back east seems odd to me for some reason. Was his story checked out? Thanks

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I read somewhere that a casette tape was found behind one of the wheels of the mini. if true, I find that odd, maybe a clue that the car hadnt moved since placed there.?

It had been picked up by a letter carrier, but was just an aerobic tape.

it also seems strange that the mini wasnt noticed when someone locked up the SOS shops or when someone opened up the shops. Noone seems to know if it was left overnight. It makes me believe the witnesses at the shop were not as aware as we might hope.

There were additional witnesses that saw the Mini parked in the lot, including one that posted here, IIRC. There really isn't anyplace for a "nightlife" in that block, so the odds of anyone seeing it overnight are low.

Also, except for the 2 witnesses on 4/15 and 3 on 4/16, I don't any of the others worked at the SoS.

I am from CA, and when you look at the courthouse video of Ray on 04/14 , it makes you realize how small and intimate the setting is. The SOS area is the same. Very small town compared to what I am use to.
I find it very surprising that The Judge and Fenton sighting were discounted. I think we need to go back there and try to figure out what they think they saw.

I think that would be exceptionally wise. RFG driving a strange car on 4/14 would be significant.

If it was Ray in another car, why would he come back after he supposedly was trying to walk away?

Bringing back the person who brought him the other car would be likely.

I hope that PF work computer was searched. If it was a walkawy the planning had to happen somewhere.

I don't know.

Does anyone think the Smith Guy could have been an accomplice? Camping in April, back east seems odd to me for some reason. Was his story checked out? Thanks

He and his wife were camping with another couple, so that should be easy to verify.

 

[RTC]

Driving a car on 4/14? i thought the Fenton sighting was 4/15? 4/14 should be completely accounted for? no?

Bringing the person back to the courthouse?? What an inside job?? Who Patty? Who is this mystery woman that everyone talks about that everyone knew was questioned, smoked? Did she work at the courthouse?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Driving a car on 4/14? i thought the Fenton sighting was 4/15? 4/14 should be completely accounted for? no?

She did. I still want to check 4/14/05, not to mention seeing the tapes of 4/15.

Bringing the person back to the courthouse?? What an inside job??

The helper could have been in Bellefonte, but I certainly would not rule out the staff.

Who Patty?

Unlikely, because she was accounted for. Same with Smith.

Who is this mystery woman that everyone talks about that everyone knew was questioned, smoked?

The "Lewisburg Mystery Woman" is unknown, and might have been just a coincidence.

The woman everyone thought RFG was with, and who met the broad description of the LMW, was a smoker. I'm not sure she was ever fully questioned, but she was supposedly visiting friends on Long Island on 4/15/05.

Did she work at the courthouse?

No, and she did not live in Centre County at the time. She lived much closer to Lewisburg than to Bellefonte.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Driving a car on 4/14? i thought the Fenton sighting was 4/15? 4/14 should be completely accounted for? no?

Bringing the person back to the courthouse?? What an inside job?? Who Patty? Who is this mystery woman that everyone talks about that everyone knew was questioned, smoked? Did she work at the courthouse?

She is a ex worker for the attorney general. They ruled her out I suppose.

 

[cloudbuster05]

Driving a car on 4/14? i thought the Fenton sighting was 4/15? 4/14 should be completely accounted for? no?

Bringing the person back to the courthouse?? What an inside job?? Who Patty? Who is this mystery woman that everyone talks about that everyone knew was questioned, smoked? Did she work at the courthouse?

Fenton saw him behind the courthouse around 3 pm 4/15/2005 in a silverish or gold looking car. She knew the day because she left early that day. Judge G does not deny seeing Ray in this car but he seems to forget if it was thursday the 14th or friday the 15th. It doesnt matter because Fenton is certain about friday being the day she left early. Ray on the 14th was seen at Raystown Lake at a marina. Nobody really seems to talk about why that would be. It seems to only come up if you discuss suicide.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Fenton saw him behind the courthouse around 3 pm 4/15/2005 in a silverish or gold looking car. She knew the day because she left early that day. Judge G does not deny seeing Ray in this car but he seems to forget if it was thursday the 14th or friday the 15th. It doesnt matter because Fenton is certain about friday being the day she left early. Ray on the 14th was seen at Raystown Lake at a marina. Nobody really seems to talk about why that would be. It seems to only come up if you discuss suicide.

RFG was at the lake between 11:00 and 11:30 AM.

It does come up in regard to walkaway, either a missed connection or meeting someone there to finalize things. I think that is a bit weak at this point.

It also could have just been a pleasure drive.

 

[RTC]

warnING>>I know this is really harsh, so maybe family members, should not read.....
if he did get turned in the damn waters wouldnt his clothing be found? at least a shred?

 

[shefner]

I know it would be difficult to pinpoint statistics on walk-aways....
but I wonder how many men successfully walk-away each year (in other words, walk away without having to reveal where they have relocated).

 

[RTC]

Hey one thing I want to say is that JJ, even though u get *****, and I might not agree with everything you write or assume, you are here for Ray Gricar. I guess some want to categorize you as propaganda for some agenda but I feel you just want to bring Ray home. I personally applaud your relentless dedication regardless. I have respect for your effort.

I personally still lean towards suicide, with left clues, but did not want his body found for his own personal reasons. I dont have much faith in the sightings. Even though the cop was a profiler, which old woman would Ray have been with? He has all the symptoms of suicide and no reason to leave. I like Ray Gricar, I am glad I read alot about his case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

warnING>>I know this is really harsh, so maybe family members, should not read.....
if he did get turned in the damn waters wouldnt his clothing be found? at least a shred?

Or at least partial remains. We had two bodies recovered from the lower Susquehanna a few weeks ago. Now, they likely went in the lower Susquehanna (one was the young girl who disappeared in Baltimore).

It is hugely unlikely that RFG was ever in the river. The Susquehanna goes through a lot of heavily populated areas and is used for recreation. The searches were massive and 4/16/05 was the first day of fishing season. The Susquehanna isn't the best place for fishing, but there are still some people who use it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hey one thing I want to say is that JJ, even though u get *****, and I might not agree with everything you write or assume, you are here for Ray Gricar. I guess some want to categorize you as propaganda for some agenda but I feel you just want to bring Ray home. I personally applaud your relentless dedication regardless. I have respect for your effort.

Thanks. I do have an agenda, and the first point that is to keep the case in the public eye until it is solved.

The second point is that, and this will surprise some, that murder is being given short shrift currently. Yes, it isn't the strongest possibility, but it is still strong. After 4/18, you don't have strong witnesses that RFG was alive. You don't have strong physical evidence after 4/15 that RF was alive.

I personally still lean towards suicide, with left clues, but did not want his body found for his own personal reasons. I dont have much faith in the sightings. Even though the cop was a profiler, which old woman would Ray have been with? He has all the symptoms of suicide and no reason to leave. I like Ray Gricar, I am glad I read alot about his case.

The woman might have been a helper, and there was someone close to him that might have been mistaken for an older woman.

One thing that, for me, could help rule in or rule out, suicide is looking across the river. There is a large wetlands area beginning perhaps 100 yards across the bridge. Beyond that, but within walking distance, there are some wooded areas. It is possible that he walked to either location and killed himself. It is also possible that he was murdered and his body dumped there.

As far as I know, LE never searched or used a cadaver dog in those areas.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Disappeared will be re-running the Gricar segment tonight at 10:00 PM Eastern.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is a link some photos of the bridge, parking lot, and park in Lewisburg:

https://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

They were taken in late July of 2009.