PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[SeekingJana]

We also have the anecdotal evidence as told by CC DA office staffers-- the mysterious case of Mel Wiley, apparently clean sheriff, middle aged man, living a nice life in Ohio.. Disappeared w/o a trace.. apparently most people thought he walked off.

Gricar was talking about " old Mel Wiley's case" not long before he disappeared-- role model type inspiration?
Or did Gricar truly go underground to investigate PSU/ Sandusky/ as yet unnamed others and he chose to re-create a Mel Wiley type model of faux disappearance?
SOMETHING about the Mel Wiley disappearance interested Ray Gricar, apparently in a personal, not professional way.

 

[eriklatranyi]

Using weather history on 15 April 2005, there were several large wind gusts (20-25mph) around 1 pm and 2 pm.

A person standing outside the car with a lit cigarette could have had the ashes blown into the open door from such a gust.

 

[SeekingJana]

RFG wanted to get rid of whatever was on the drive, and had been asking about it about a year before he disappeared. It could have just been personal data, like credit card numbers.

The laptop could have either at the residence or possibly in ML's car.

If it was a social type thing, "social" including a lot of things, ML could say "Hey, Ray, why are you bringing a laptop?" He could explain that he just wanted to toss the drive (which he did in this scenario) and just said, **Oh, I wanted to get rid of the drive, because my credit card stuff was on it, so I tossed it in the river.**

There would be no link to Sandusky.

Ironically, until two weeks ago, some people would object every time I suggested that RFG could have met an adult female lover in Lewisburg. Now that is one of the tamer theories on the Internet.

Maybe because I think every person with a conscience can be rehabilitated if necessary, I had rather Ray Gricar be involved with anyone or anything than to find out he's been dead, truly, not just legally, dead for over 6 years now. ANYTHING involving a live Ray Gricar is better to me than a dead man.
I pray for him to be found alive every day of my life.

The deeper the PSU allegations go, the more afraid I am while strangely being also more hopeful that he absolutely DID have a reason to leave when he did-- we just don't know what it was yet. I hope.....

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The pieces that keep me thinking RG planned his change of life/disappearance are:
1. In the meeting where they were planning a death penalty case hearing in October, he says he would not be there. That was said in April I think?

March 8 and 9 are the earliest dates people reported it.

2. His working until 9:15 pm the night before he disappeared. Wrapping things up?

He was known to work late at night. He had taken part of 4/14 off, and had a meeting that morning, so it might not be too unusual.

5. Smoke/ashes suggest someone sitting in his passenger seat.

The ash was just a trace and could have been someone leaning in.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Using weather history on 15 April 2005, there were several large wind gusts (20-25mph) around 1 pm and 2 pm.

A person standing outside the car with a lit cigarette could have had the ashes blown into the open door from such a gust.

Weather Underground. Very good. I've used that too.

There was a scent of smoke when the car was first opened as well.

 

[SeekingJana]

Using weather history on 15 April 2005, there were several large wind gusts (20-25mph) around 1 pm and 2 pm.

A person standing outside the car with a lit cigarette could have had the ashes blown into the open door from such a gust.

I have a question about the ashes-- I don't smoke. I hate it. Back when almost everyone was lighting up outside public buildings, I often would get cigarette ashes on the bottom of my New Balance or Asics running shoes as I ran by. I always cleaned my athletc shoes after wearing them, so I noticed the residue on these shoes. Plus the ash shows up well on black soles.
I never looked for it on my many pair of dress shoes but I suppose it was there..

Is it not possible that the cigarette ashes are secondary transfer from a cigarette butt or butts emptied or thrown into the parking lot, from the car floor board of a slovenly smoker ( I have known some men who were very lazy, messy smokers in my life and their floor mats and carpets are throwaways after a few months), or from walking by one of those large smoking stand things with the sand for public smokers to use?

MAYBE Ray met with someone who got into the passenger side of his car wearing athletic soled shoes? Or hiking boot type soles? ( Not wanting to skew the athletic angle).

I've always wondered why secondary transfer was not cited as likely. Ashes stick to EVERYTHING.

 

[distracted 1976]

New to this thread so take it easy on me please! :truce:

Could it not just be that he was bought to go away by PS? I have read many theories on the last few pages, but this one seems the most obvious.

Everybody has a price, kwim?

Ready, Set, Go!
Tell me why I am wrong!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe because I think every person with a conscience can be rehabilitated if necessary, I had rather Ray Gricar be involved with anyone or anything than to find out he's been dead, truly, not just legally, dead for over 6 years now. ANYTHING involving a live Ray Gricar is better to me than a dead man.
I pray for him to be found alive every day of my life.

The deeper the PSU allegations go, the more afraid I am while strangely being also more hopeful that he absolutely DID have a reason to leave when he did-- we just don't know what it was yet. I hope.....

"Motive, your Honor, is something we never have to prove." RFG said that in court.

I've always said that if RFG walked away, I would not ask why he walked away or where he was. I still feel that way. That get's proven, I'm out.

I hope it is proven very soon, if it is true, because I do not like the direction the case is going.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

New to this thread so take it easy on me please! :truce:

Could it not just be that he was bought to go away by PS? I have read many theories on the last few pages, but this one seems the most obvious.

Everybody has a price, kwim?

Ready, Set, Go!
Tell me why I am wrong!

Like I just said, I don't like the direction the case is going.

One argument against it is money. In the prior thread, we discussed his assets, based on his salary. They always seemed too low. That is not consistent with enriching himself in office.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have a question about the ashes-- I don't smoke. I hate it. Back when almost everyone was lighting up outside public buildings, I often would get cigarette ashes on the bottom of my New Balance or Asics running shoes as I ran by. I always cleaned my athletc shoes after wearing them, so I noticed the residue on these shoes. Plus the ash shows up well on black soles.
I never looked for it on my many pair of dress shoes but I suppose it was there..

Is it not possible that the cigarette ashes are secondary transfer from a cigarette butt or butts emptied or thrown into the parking lot, from the car floor board of a slovenly smoker ( I have known some men who were very lazy, messy smokers in my life and their floor mats and carpets are throwaways after a few months), or from walking by one of those large smoking stand things with the sand for public smokers to use?

MAYBE Ray met with someone who got into the passenger side of his car wearing athletic soled shoes? Or hiking boot type soles? ( Not wanting to skew the athletic angle).

I've always wondered why secondary transfer was not cited as likely. Ashes stick to EVERYTHING.

There was also the scent of smoke in the car.

 

[Maxim]

Using weather history on 15 April 2005, there were several large wind gusts (20-25mph) around 1 pm and 2 pm.

A person standing outside the car with a lit cigarette could have had the ashes blown into the open door from such a gust.

True, but wouldn't RG have both windows lowered to clear out any smoke odor? If one window was down, (mo) both windows were down.

The odor would have been gone had he driven around anywhere with the windows down.

 

[SeekingJana]

There was also the scent of smoke in the car.

J.J., I promise you that some people could definitely smell a smoke smell just from a few ashes. I can do it. I wish I couldn't, but I definitely can.
IF we lived close by, I could prove it.. People who know me are amazed ( or irritated if they smoke).

I've refused a non-smoking hotel room in a posh hotel before because someone on the floor above could smoke on their balcony ( and we know that smoke wafts UP not DOWN but my olfactory nerves were edgy). It bothers me that much. Try explaining that to a venerable Parisian hotelier, though LOL.

J.J., in the absence of a positively ID'd body ( by DNA and dentals) let's not think the worst. 6 years, J.J. Six long years. We can wait. We can hope longer!!

 

[SeekingJana]

Could the FBI have been involved as early as 1998- 1999?

One of the Pennsylvania state charges against Sandusky alleges that he flew one boy – identified as Victim Number Four – to the Outback Bowl in Tampa in 1998 and then again to the Alamo Bowl in San Antonio in 1999. Starting when the boy was about 13 years old, Sandusky “repeatedly” abused him, including at the bowl games, a grand jury report charges. When the boy resisted Sandusky’s advances, the grand jury indictment charges, the football coach threatened “to send him home from the Alamo Bowl.” http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...iminal-inquiry

This violates FEDERAL Law. Meaning it was a case for the FBI.
Not sure when the investigations started into this, or when the FBI became involved, but this again raises the question of the WPP or Gricar being part of a special task force, IMO.

 

[Sassy Lassie]

J.J.

More speculation on what happened creates more stories and more webs of confusion.Makes it easier for the real reason for the crime to be hidden.It might be this or maybe it was that. Is he dead,did he leave town,what was on his computer?
At the time he vanished,did anyone wonder if there was a link to the charity or Sandusky? Maybe they did.I don't know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J.J., I promise you that some people could definitely smell a smoke smell just from a few ashes. I can do it. I wish I couldn't, but I definitely can.

The ash was literally a fragment. Somebody could have blown a puff into the car, at least in theory.

 

[Carolyn H.]

While I believe, and even hope, that Ray Gricar walked away from his life, I do think foul play can also be reasonably explained.

People are making a lot of RFG's mention that he wouldn't be there on a particular day in October. I feel that can easily be explained by pre-planning of his vacation. He knew he wouldn't be in court that day because even as far back as April he was planning his vacation. As someone who's worked in corporations, that amount of lead time isn't terribly unusual, especially if you really need that particular day off, but even if you are just parceling out your vacation days or making sure you can get a particular day, RFG's comment doesn't necessarily mean he was planning to disappear. (and if he was, why make that announcement?)

How to explain a possible murder itself. If that happened, I think the way it happened is that RFG unexpectedly ran into someone who had a grudge or an axe to grind. I don't think this was a planned murder. I think it was a murder of sudden opportunity. If it was a professional hit or even a well-planned murder, wouldn't said killer want to do that job in a location of his own planning? It's hard to imagine doing something like that in an area you weren't familiar with simply by following RFG on a vacation day. So I'm inclined to think he ran into someone on his travels who took an unexpected opportunity when he saw it.

After the murder, the disposal of a body and the tossing of the computer seems well-planned. I'm wondering if a second person was involved, someone who was better at planning than the possible killer. Perhaps the possible killer told a significant other what had happened and then SO helped get rid of the evidence.

I hope this isn't the case. I hope RFG walked away or is in WP or whatever. But I do think murder is a plausible possibility

 

[cj327]

JJ - What do you think about the Mel Wiley idea? Do you believe the RG talked about that before he disappeared?

As a former government employee, it would be a paperwork/accounting/security nightmare to "lose" a government-issued laptop...especially one that might have important confidential info on it. If Ray threw the laptop in the river himself, I am confident that he was NOT planning on going back to work...ever.

Also, couldn't he have taken the drive out, and then thrown it and the laptop in the water at the same time, and then due to their different bouyencies, one washed further and faster than the other...explaining their different locations in the river?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ - What do you think about the Mel Wiley idea? Do you believe the RG talked about that before he disappeared?

Does this answer your question:

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/02/22/2397093/wiley-and-gricar-the-timing.html

Also, couldn't he have taken the drive out, and then thrown it and the laptop in the water at the same time, and then due to their different bouyencies, one washed further and faster than the other...explaining their different locations in the river?

I think the laptop is largely metal. The distance was also about 75-100 yards.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes JJ - What do you think about the Mel Wiley disappearance idea? Over lunch, I was thinking this was very plausible:

1. He knew of Mel and mentioned it. He himself was at a perfect life changing stage.

I just linked to the blog where I pointed out the same thing. He had mentioned this obscure case, with no connection to Centre County to Sloane, at least 7-8 years after the fact.

2. His work was intense. Was he stressed enough to bail out, disappear and leave it all behind? If he met an older companion who had financial means and he had saved money somewhere, could this be the case?

He was working harder closer to the time he disappeared.

PEF is 19 years younger than RFG.

I'm not convinced that the witness who saw him in the car is correct. LE has said that at least one person saw RFG in the Street of Shops (SoS) with the "Lewisburg Mystery Woman." (LMW) I'm not certain if it was someone he was with or just another shopper he struck up a conversation with.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BPD didn't know about the Sandusky connection: http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/18/new-leads-in-missing-sandusky-case-da/