PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[SeekingJana]

Glad you are surviving.

In theory, it could be something like this: Psychogenic amnesia - Wikipedia It is similar to a fugue state. It is a long shot. I'd give the likelihood at less than a 1% of being the explanation.

Thanks, J.
It's my training and experience that amnesia not resulting from a head injury or a blackout due to substance abuse, is psychogenic amnesia, and most likely comes during or immediately after a huge trauma.

For example: We can look at the redacted court records of the questioning of rape victims who remember that they were assaulted, but never could fill in the minute details asked of them.
We can correctly say the trauma likely caused psychogenic amnesia from which they may never recover ( never remember the details asked) or were in the more current defined fugue state.

There is a psychomotor dissociative state as well.
In ALL of these losses of memory, I'd say the person is very easily defined by the general public as " looking lost", " appeared befuddled", " blank look in his eyes" and so forth.

People in a mental crisis which is new and acute, which would be the case with Ray would not be astute enough to call the courthouse and talk to Patti about the dog, Honey, and secure his car ( doors were not open or unlocked) in Lewisburg. It's my opinion that he was NOT in a fugue state or any acute or chronic state of amnesia ( memory loss not due to head trauma or substance intoxication, which have different diagnoses).

IF someone had either given him a concussion or slipped him psychotropic drugs ( or large amounts of ETOH), he would surely have been seen struggling to walk or in distress. We know he wasn't in distress at the Packwood House, the park, or the Street Of Shops according to several eyewitness accounts not believed to be connected to each other except through general location. We also know he moved his car using what appears to be normal driving technique and skill set. ( IOW, he was not being gaslighted or drugged in Lewisburg or elsewhere.)

 

[SeekingJana]

Duplicate post. My apologies.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just one of those "case is still open" stories. No answers 16 years later in disappearance of Centre County DA, PSP says case still open

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The first story from Buehner's informant was that the body was hidden in a mine shaft in Quarryville, Bucks County PA. There is no Quarryville in Bucks County.

There in a Quarryville in Lancaster County, but there are no mine shafts there.

This version of the story has the body hidden on state game lands around Lewisburg, which is at least plausible. The other two locations are a fair distance from Lewisburg. Quarryville is about 115 miles from Lewisburg and the closest spot in Bucks County is about 120 miles away.

This is different from "mine shaft guy," who did not give the location as Quarryville.

 

[SeekingJana]

The first story from Buehner's informant was that the body was hidden in a mine shaft in Quarryville, Bucks County PA. There is no Quarryville in Bucks County.

There in a Quarryville in Lancaster County, but there are no mine shafts there.

This version of the story has the body hidden on state game lands around Lewisburg, which is at least plausible. The other two locations are a fair distance from Lewisburg. Quarryville is about 115 miles from Lewisburg and the closest spot in Bucks County is about 120 miles away.

This is different from "mine shaft guy," who did not give the location as Quarryville.

It seems to me that them dragging up old rumors discounted years ago with factual evidence ( No place in Buck's County named Quarryville, for example, plus HOW OBVIOUS to say he was killed and put in a mine shaft in a town named QUARRYVILLE)?

People need to stop making money off a good man who may well be deceased. He never even had a memorial service, a memorial plaque honoring his life or anything. Pretty soon, no one will remember him in Centre County. Makes me cry, and lordy, have I had a day full of tears already. ( They botched my COVID vaccine!).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry to hear about your vaccine.

There were at least two sources, mine shaft guy (from Bock) and Quarryville guy (from Buehner). I think Quarryville guy is dead. I'm not sure if "game land guy" is the same as Quarryville guy, or if Buehner now has a third informant.

 

[SeekingJana]

Sorry to hear about your vaccine.

There were at least two sources, mine shaft guy (from Bock) and Quarryville guy (from Buehner). I think Quarryville guy is dead. I'm not sure if "game land guy" is the same as Quarryville guy, or if Buehner now has a third informant.

Well, how old and dependable is Buehner now, FGS? Seems to me he was older than Ray. He needs to put up or shut up.
This hypothetical " informant" has gotten to the point of making me ill. Is he doing this crap for attention, to perhaps " Keep the case alive" as he sees it, or what? THREE informant theories are 2 too many. Let's get real, Bob. I'd say this to his face if I met him, too.

Is Sloane saying or doing anything these days? I always expected him to be the one who found something out, whether the public knows or not.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Buehner is probably in his late 60's. I think he's about 10 years older than me.

One of those informants was not associated with Buehner, mine shaft guy. A few of our former members tried to conflate mine shaft guy with Quarryville guy.

Buehner is a nice guy and really cares about RFG. Some of what he has said has turned out to be inaccurate or he confuses the details. There have been a string of things where what he has does not check out. The police officer that say RFG in Wilkes Barre, the blond, and Quarryville guy are the three that come to mind. He also insisted that Sandusky could not be convicted regarding Victim Six.

Sloane has been quite since his conviction, though I see him post on Facebook occasionally.

 

[SeekingJana]

Buehner is probably in his late 60's. I think he's about 10 years older than me.

One of those informants was not associated with Buehner, mine shaft guy. A few of our former members tried to conflate mine shaft guy with Quarryville guy.

Buehner is a nice guy and really cares about RFG. Some of what he has said has turned out to be inaccurate or he confuses the details. There have been a string of things where what he has does not check out. The police officer that say RFG in Wilkes Barre, the blond, and Quarryville guy are the three that come to mind. He also insisted that Sandusky could not be convicted regarding Victim Six.

Sloane has been quite since his conviction, though I see him post on Facebook occasionally.

Buehner looked older that RFG when the case was new, IMO. Age and aging are kind of amazing things if that man isn't in his 70's now.
I mean nothing bad, but am thinking that maybe his memory and flow of thought has diminished quite a bit over time. I knew he was quite a bit older than either of us.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the recording of the broadcast: 2/17/21 On The Mark: Mark & Joe host Bob Buehner on his candidacy and other topics |

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I did listen to the interview and Buehner did not mention anything about an informant.

He claimed that there was a forensic audit, but he was referring to Det. Rickard looking at the cash transactions. I think was $16,000 over 2.5 years. It is not looking at what happened prior to RFG's divorce and what his assets were coming out of that.

For someone grossing more than $110 K year for the 4 years after his divorce, having an estate worth less $25 K is low.

There are other explanations, but hiding assets is certainly one of them.

Buehner did not mention the computer searches, buying eraser software, or asking others how to clean a computer. He also didn't mention that RFG used the laptop as his home computer.

 

[SeekingJana]

I did listen to the interview and Buehner did not mention anything about an informant.

He claimed that there was a forensic audit, but he was referring to Det. Rickard looking at the cash transactions. I think was $16,000 over 2.5 years. It is not looking at what happened prior to RFG's divorce and what his assets were coming out of that.

For someone grossing more than $110 K year for the 4 years after his divorce, having an estate worth less $25 K is low.

There are other explanations, but hiding assets is certainly one of them.

Buehner did not mention the computer searches, buying eraser software, or asking others how to clean a computer. He also didn't mention that RFG used the laptop as his home computer.

I can see why another former or retired DA wouldn't mention things that don't fit his theory of murder:
The laptop, the home computer searches, the low savings in a known account, many other things, point to PLANNED walkaway.

For some reason, BB would rather RFG be murdered than happy and living elsewhere, it seems to me. Maybe he believes it's irresponsible or close to immoral to walk away from one's career and the people he served. IDK, but I don't see it Bob's way at all. While Sloane seemed very pro- Gricar, I never got the impression that Bob was, even though the narrative is that they were close friends as well as sharing a profession.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Having talked with him, my impression is that Buehner wants the case investigated and the best way he sees to do that is say that there is a crime that could be prosecuted. From what I've read, LE thinks was something voluntary, walkaway or suicide. I'm not saying they are right; I'm am saying that is their theory.

BB's current theory is one that I abandoned after the computer searches came out. My one of initial questions was, "Why would RFG take the computer with him." My initial answer was that he would be meeting with someone who had digital data. Now, the evidence is that it was because RFG wanted the hard drive unreadable and was planning to toss it. That does not rule out foul play, in the least. It does destroy that particular theory that the reason he brought the laptop was to read something digital.

The difference between RFG's relationship with Sloane and Buehner was different. RFG see Buehner at conferences and talk on the phone; he would hang out with Sloane (and Ed Walker).

 

[SeekingJana]

Having talked with him, my impression is that Buehner wants the case investigated and the best way he sees to do that is say that there is a crime that could be prosecuted. From what I've read, LE thinks was something voluntary, walkaway or suicide. I'm not saying they are right; I'm am saying that is their theory.

BB's current theory is one that I abandoned after the computer searches came out. My one of initial questions was, "Why would RFG take the computer with him." My initial answer was that he would be meeting with someone who had digital data. Now, the evidence is that it was because RFG wanted the hard drive unreadable and was planning to toss it. That does not rule out foul play, in the least. It does destroy that particular theory that the reason he brought the laptop was to read something digital.

The difference between RFG's relationship with Sloane and Buehner was different. RFG see Buehner at conferences and talk on the phone; he would hang out with Sloane (and Ed Walker).

Yes, I said several posts back that I thought BB was doing his " murdered and put in a mine shaft" deal to keep the case alive.

IMO, he's fabricating or repeating hearsay BAD RUMORS with absolutely no basis in fact. None. Zero. I'm glad he's not a witness because I don't see him as serious or credible. I think secretly he is another who laughs that " Ray outwitted the cops", or " Ray outwitted the cops AGAIN"... I believe it was Rickard who said Gricar liked to " get one up on the local police". Kind of a mental exercise for the police, but not for Ray, who had the answer already.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

In fairness, Buehner believes the source, but he should have been doing due diligence before going public. That doesn't help anyone.

 

[Ozoner]

Are you familiar with the prevailing theory that he wanted to leave the country and did so safely and legally? That no crime occurred? Those of us who still post about Mr. Gricar do so, with a few exceptions, because we believe he did manage to get away undetected or at least unknown to the general public. We hope and believe in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that he did make it to the country of his choice, and has had a great long life, and is still alive.
Thanks for reading.

Snipped.

It is one theory, but I would hardly call it a prevailing theory.

I think he was tired of living and may have taken his own life in a way that would make it unlikely for him to be found (which may have included leaving the area).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped.

It is one theory, but I would hardly call it a prevailing theory.

I think he was tired of living and may have taken his own life in a way that would make it unlikely for him to be found (which may have included leaving the area).

How much, psychologically, is leaving your life behind similar to suicide?

 

[SeekingJana]

Snipped.

It is one theory, but I would hardly call it a prevailing theory.

I think he was tired of living and may have taken his own life in a way that would make it unlikely for him to be found (which may have included leaving the area).

Well, that's a slim supposition, but I'll go along. I'd like more info about ( hypothetically) why he left his own car in the SOS parking lot and how he got out of Lewisburg. Occam's Razor says he died in the general area where he was last seen.

Most people who commit suicide do so alone, and usually do want their body to be found to give the family closure. He had a lot of grief over his brother's suicide. I find it almost impossible to believe he'd do the exact same thing.
Plus, he was not Bi- Polar per his medical records.
Plus, he was raised Roman Catholic and it's my understanding that there is a huge afterlife penalty attached to suicide in their belief system from childhood. ( That it's a form of murder, or similar).

Also, could you describe a way to commit suicide out of Lewisburg where he'd not likely be seen leaving or be found?

 

[Ozoner]

Well, that's a slim supposition, but I'll go along. I'd like more info about ( hypothetically) why he left his own car in the SOS parking lot and how he got out of Lewisburg. Occam's Razor says he died in the general area where he was last seen.

Most people who commit suicide do so alone, and usually do want their body to be found to give the family closure. He had a lot of grief over his brother's suicide. I find it almost impossible to believe he'd do the exact same thing.
Plus, he was not Bi- Polar per his medical records.
Plus, he was raised Roman Catholic and it's my understanding that there is a huge afterlife penalty attached to suicide in their belief system from childhood. ( That it's a form of murder, or similar).

Also, could you describe a way to commit suicide out of Lewisburg where he'd not likely be seen leaving or be found?

Most is the operative word in your claim. Some people prefer not to be found.

Ray may have chosen to find a wilderness area to wander into. If someone chose to commit suicide in a seldom-traveled part of the Allegheny National Forest (which is over 500,000 acres), for instance, there's a good chance that the person would never be found or would not be found for years or decades. Suicide could be by any method—gunshot, hanging, exposure, starvation, etc.

Occam's razor might be that he drowned in the Susquehanna and simply wasn't found. There are many variables that determine when or whether a body will rise to the surface, and it is easy to miss a body in an underwater search, especially if assumptions about where the person went under are incorrect. If he walked downstream for a couple of miles first, for instance, then his body might have been outside of area that divers focused on in their underwater search. It may even be that he died in a nearby patch of woods and simply wasn't found. I've read about cases where bodies were initially missed even when searchers walked with a few feet of them. In one case a man was thrown from a vehicle and wasn't found for years even though the crash site was searched thoroughly.

When it comes to his brother's suicide, it may be that Ray felt a compulsion to understand what his brother went through. He may have drowned himself simply because he identified so strongly with his brother.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I just found this trailer. The Final Argument?

From what I've heard, it will have more information that I do.