GUILTY PA - Tom, 51, Lisa, 47, & Kevin Haines, 16, murdered, Manheim Twp, 12 May 2007

[oceanblueeyes]

Could they have been drugged?

All things are possible Class of course but I tend to think not. The mother if you believe Maggie was awake and sitting on the side of the bed when Maggie saw her and Maggie's brother was able to rise and come out of his bedroom only to collapse and die in the hallway. It seems this person was a stealth killer. By that I mean he had the capacity to know where he was going even in a dark house and knew exactly where each one lay to completely blindside this family.

What I still cannot understand is why he left the mother alive (again going by Maggie's words). The one stab to the mom just doesn't fit the pattern of the rest of the crime scene imo. There is something very odd about it.

Another thing that is haunting to me. Maggie says her mother was alive when she fled to go get help at the neighbors but when the police arrived 4-5 minutes later all of them were dead and the perp was no where in sight.:waitasec: TOD will be very interesting to learn. The only thing is a ME can only guesstimate.

imoo

 

[mysteriew]

All good possibilities. Thanks for the thought provoking post. It sure is a mystery as to what happened to this family.

The only thing I think that may be contradictory to your theories is it seems 1) none of the victims had defensive wounds on them. So I am not sure any of them struggled with the killer. It seems they were just slaughtered unmercifully without a chance to fight back. The one stab wound in the stomach of Lisa reminds me of the Pamela Vitale case when Scott Dyleski stabbed her in the abdomen after bludgeoning her 39 times. The ME said that PV would have died from that stab wound if she had not already been beaten in the head.

I think that is so puzzling. How could one lone murderer come in and kill these people one at a time and none of them seemed to struggle or fight back?

I do wholeheartedly agree that Lisa would have woken it seems. Just the repeated stabbing of her husband laying next to her would have jostled the bed and mothers do have a quick wakening response due to child raising years imo.

I am also perplexed if this killer was there to brutally murder all three then why just one stab to the abdomen concerning the mom when the others were repeatedly stabbed?

Imo somehow this killer knew this family and had been inside that home and knew the full layout. It is very hard to maneuver through a strange house at 2:20 am in the morning without being detected and this home had 4 individuals residing in it.

This is a vendetta killing imo. The killer came to murder these people for a reason he had created in his own sick depraved mind. Now the question is and seems to remain who in the world would have that much hatred for this family when by all accounts they were upstanding citizens in their community and bothered no one?

imoo

1) If Mom woke and was stabbed first, that could explain why she only had one wound. The killer didn't have time to inflict more than one wound before Dad woke. Dad just woken from sleep, faced with an unimaginable scene, in the dark most likely didn't have time to comprehend what was happening before he was stabbed.

2) You would think that was so. But many women have woke up finding a rapist at their bedside, many houses have been burglarized while the owners were home in bed and many kids have been stolen from their beds at night without their parents knowlege (and with the persons who stole them never having been in the home.) Many homes have light at night. There may be nightlights, lights from the street lamps seeping into the home. And some people have very good night vision. When you walk into someone's home, it is usually fairly easy to determine where the bedrooms are (they are the rooms farthest from the entry and main living areas) or you can figure it out by ruling out which rooms are not occupied bedrooms. If they watched the home, they could even determine who occupied which bedroom.

 

[poco]

1) If Mom woke and was stabbed first, that could explain why she only had one wound. The killer didn't have time to inflict more than one wound before Dad woke. Dad just woken from sleep, faced with an unimaginable scene, in the dark most likely didn't have time to comprehend what was happening before he was stabbed.

If this were the case the son obviously had to be the first one stabbed (has that been determined/do they know???) because obviously he would have yelled out to his parents or his parents would have heard the scuffle. In any event, the mother wouldn't know if the son was already stabbed so she obviously would have yelled out to her children. ???????

I just wish they'd solve this damn thing!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

1) If Mom woke and was stabbed first, that could explain why she only had one wound. The killer didn't have time to inflict more than one wound before Dad woke. Dad just woken from sleep, faced with an unimaginable scene, in the dark most likely didn't have time to comprehend what was happening before he was stabbed.

2) You would think that was so. But many women have woke up finding a rapist at their bedside, many houses have been burglarized while the owners were home in bed and many kids have been stolen from their beds at night without their parents knowledge (and with the persons who stole them never having been in the home.) Many homes have light at night. There may be nightlights, lights from the street lamps seeping into the home. And some people have very good night vision. When you walk into someone's home, it is usually fairly easy to determine where the bedrooms are (they are the rooms farthest from the entry and main living areas) or you can figure it out by ruling out which rooms are not occupied bedrooms. If they watched the home, they could even determine who occupied which bedroom.

Well it is all guesswork for us anyway lol

But I dont see that actually happening. If the father woke up after his wife was stabbed one time it seems he would have had defensive wounds and if she was able to sit on the bed afterwards and talk then one would think she too would have defensive wounds. It is the one stab wound to the mom that bothers me more. Whomever do this if we believe Maggie, left Lisa alive and able to talk yet made sure the other victims were brutally overkilled. It just seems very inconsistent to me.

Since Maggie heard a noise coming from her brother's room it seems he was the last one to die and the perp had already attacked the parents. Evidently from Maggie's room she gets to her parents room first and her brother's room must be further down the hall.

This was a two story home and I dont think it would be very easy to navigate a place one had never been. That is why I think this killer knew exactly the layout of that home because he had been inside it before.

JMO of course.

 

[txsvicki]

All things are possible Class of course but I tend to think not. The mother if you believe Maggie was awake and sitting on the side of the bed when Maggie saw her and Maggie's brother was able to rise and come out of his bedroom only to collapse and die in the hallway. It seems this person was a stealth killer. By that I mean he had the capacity to know where he was going even in a dark house and knew exactly where each one lay to completely blindside this family.

What I still cannot understand is why he left the mother alive (again going by Maggie's words). The one stab to the mom just doesn't fit the pattern of the rest of the crime scene imo. There is something very odd about it.

Another thing that is haunting to me. Maggie says her mother was alive when she fled to go get help at the neighbors but when the police arrived 4-5 minutes later all of them were dead and the perp was no where in sight.:waitasec: TOD will be very interesting to learn. The only thing is a ME can only guesstimate.

imoo

I agree. I've thought the Mom being left alive was really strange from the beginning. According to Maggie, she could even talk and didn't even roll off the bed. Unless the parents' bedroom was on the lower level and the kids' room upstairs, Maggie should have heard some voices or yelling from the parents I would think.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If this were the case the son obviously had to be the first one stabbed (has that been determined/do they know???) because obviously he would have yelled out to his parents or his parents would have heard the scuffle. In any event, the mother wouldn't know if the son was already stabbed so she obviously would have yelled out to her children. ???????

I just wish they'd solve this damn thing!

OMG! Poco you are right. Wouldn't Lisa tell Maggie to go get her brother and run for help? Because to me by Maggie's story I think the brother was the last to be killed. I think the parents had already been attacked and Maggie didn't hear that but she did hear the scuffle coming from her brother's room and when she went to check it out is when she said she saw her mom sitting on the bed and her dad lying at the end of the bed and that is when she told Maggie to go get help IIRC. Maggie said when she left she did not see her brother laying in the hallway. He must have staggered out after she fled.

Now you really have me thinking. Did Lisa know that her son had been mortally wounded too and if so how did she know that? I guess we will never learn the answer to that question unfortunately.

Of course none of us knows exactly what we would do but I think I would tell my oldest child to get all of the children and get them the hell out of there. I really want to believe that Lisa never knew her only son had been murdered too.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree. I've thought the Mom being left alive was really strange from the beginning. According to Maggie, she could even talk.

Well thank goodness I am not the only one that has been perplexed by that! It has bothered me from the first day I heard of these horrific murders.

It just doesn't make sense somehow and also again if we take Maggie's word she did not see her brother laying in the hallway. So does that mean that not only the mother but the brother died too within this 4-5 minute window before the police arrived?


imoo

 

[nanandjim]

Well thank goodness I am not the only one that has been perplexed by that! It has bothered me from the first day I heard of these horrific murders.

It just doesn't make sense somehow and also again if we take Maggie's word she did not see her brother laying in the hallway. So does that mean that not only the mother but the brother died too within this 4-5 minute window before the police arrived?


imoo

It seems to me that the parents were attacked first. The attacker may have thought that Lisa was dead because she didn't resist and fell back to the bed. I imagine that it all happened really fast. Lisa may have even blacked out for a moment. The killer then moved on to the brother's room where a loud scuffle ensued, waking Maggie.

She went to her parents room where she saw her Mom sitting on the bed. It seems natural to me that the mother would, with her dying breath, tell Maggie to go get help. Her mother knew that there was a murderer in the home with some kind of weapon. She probably even heard the same scuffle going on in Kevin's room. Of course, she isn't going to tell Maggie to go to his room where the murderer was.

At first blush, I thought that the story didn't make sense; however, after reading about the story, I don't think that Maggie is involved in any way. I think that the killer didn't realize that she was there and that she is one lucky girl.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It seems to me that the parents were attacked first. The attacker may have thought that Lisa was dead because she didn't resist and fell back to the bed. I imagine that it all happened really fast. Lisa may have even blacked out for a moment. The killer then moved on to the brother's room where a loud scuffle ensued, waking Maggie.

She went to her parents room where she saw her Mom sitting on the bed. It seems natural to me that the mother would, with her dying breath, tell Maggie to go get help. Her mother knew that there was a murderer in the home with some kind of weapon. She probably even heard the same scuffle going on in Kevin's room. Of course, she isn't going to tell Maggie to go to his room where the murderer was.

At first blush, I thought that the story didn't make sense; however, after reading about the story, I don't think that Maggie is involved in any way. I think that the killer didn't realize that she was there and that she is one lucky girl.

I am not saying that Maggie is involved either. None of us knows who the murderer is unfortunately but still it makes no sense to me anyway why the perp would just stab the mother once and think he did a good enough job when he overkilled the other two.

I can understand your point though about telling Maggie only to go get help.

imoo

 

[txsvicki]

I believe that Maggie says that she didn't see the blood or stab wounds to her parents, only that her dad was lying at the foot of the bed. It's also a little strange that she would leave her mother there or know if she were even injured since she saw her sitting and talking. I suppose that Maggie could have assumed they were both injured and that it was an immediate concern to get out of there and go get help. I wonder if Maggie and the neighbors tried to go back over there and see if they could see anyone or anything before LE got there or if she grabbed her cell phone when she heard the scuffle.

 

[PSUfan]

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/205610

LANCASTER COUNTY, Pa - Manheim Township Police began posting reward signs around the community this morning in places such as grocery stores and mini-marts.

Police hope the signs spur someone to call them with a tip that leads to an arrest in the murders of the Haines family, Sgt. Tom Rudzinski said.

"We are trying to select places that are high volume," he said.

At the top, the signs offer a $25,000 reward, up from $20,000.

Police have also turned to the Internet.

The Haines murders have captured national media attention and become a hot topic on numerous crime blogs. A simple search this morning of "Haines murders" on Google blogs returned 2,812 hits.

It's now part of Rudzinski's job to read some of those blogs. Blogs are sort of like online message boards or diaries.

Many posters have anonymously written theories on what they think happened.

 

[poco]

It seems to me that the parents were attacked first. The attacker may have thought that Lisa was dead because she didn't resist and fell back to the bed. I imagine that it all happened really fast. Lisa may have even blacked out for a moment. The killer then moved on to the brother's room where a loud scuffle ensued, waking Maggie.

She went to her parents room where she saw her Mom sitting on the bed. It seems natural to me that the mother would, with her dying breath, tell Maggie to go get help. Her mother knew that there was a murderer in the home with some kind of weapon. She probably even heard the same scuffle going on in Kevin's room. Of course, she isn't going to tell Maggie to go to his room where the murderer was.

At first blush, I thought that the story didn't make sense; however, after reading about the story, I don't think that Maggie is involved in any way. I think that the killer didn't realize that she was there and that she is one lucky girl.

Well, whatever, but come on, I wish they would solve this one - as well as a few others out there on our forums. In any event, IF the killer was after Kevin, or either the mother or father, and they knew these people and had already "cased the joint", wouldn't they have noticed that Maggie's car was now in the driveway - a car that they hadn't seen there before?

 

[PSUfan]

Well, whatever, but come on, I wish they would solve this one - as well as a few others out there on our forums. In any event, IF the killer was after Kevin, or either the mother or father, and they knew these people and had already "cased the joint", wouldn't they have noticed that Maggie's car was now in the driveway - a car that they hadn't seen there before?

That is a good point. So maybe the daughter got extremely lucky and actually got out of the house while the killer was scuffling with her brother. That does sound likely. The scary part about all of this is that this is starting to look more and more like a random killing.

I wish they would solve this already too. No credible leads.. how can someone kill so violently, with a knife, and their are no leads yet.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That is a good point. So maybe the daughter got extremely lucky and actually got out of the house while the killer was scuffling with her brother. That does sound likely. The scary part about all of this is that this is starting to look more and more like a random killing.

I wish they would solve this already too. No credible leads.. how can someone kill so violently, with a knife, and their are no leads yet.

I still believe it was someone known to these people or at least one of them. I think LE thinks it is a young person who has no criminal past.

The only thing I still have nagging questions about is why the mother was stabbed only once and the others were repeatedly slashed. Also Maggie said she did not see her brother laying in the hallway. It is the timing of their deaths that is odd to me. That would mean that both the mother and her son died within the 4-5 minute time line between Maggie calling 911 and the police arriving. It also would mean that in that same time frame that the killer not only killed but fled the scene before police arrived.

I sure wish they would catch a break. Imo if it is a young person then someone will talk eventually. Teenagers have a hard time keeping secrets.

imoo

 

[SieSie]

Every time I see this thread back near the top, I get my hopes up that they caught the perp.

 

[Hbgchick]

Me too SieSie. :-(

I still think it's someone young who knew at least one of the victims, likely the son. JMO, of course.

 

[nanandjim]

According to Steve Huff's blog, they have arrested a 16-year-old kid with the murders of this family.

Here is a link to a photo of this kid. Apparently, he confessed to his father; and his father turned him in.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/5/205755Alec_Kreider

 

[poco]

LANCASTER COUNTY, Pa - Manheim Township Police have arrested Alec Devon Kreider, 16, of 1264 Cobblestone Lane, and charged him with killing three members of the Haines family in their Blossom Hill home May 12.

Kreider, who was arraigned before District Justice David Miller just prior to a 5:30 p.m. press conference, was a student at Manheim Township High School and a friend of Kevin Haines, 16, who was stabbed to death along with his father, Thomas, and his mother Lisa.

A 20-year-old daughter, Maggie, was able to escape the home unharmed.

Police said Kreider entered the Haines residence with the intention of smothering Kevin but intentionally used a knife to kill both Kevin and his parents.

Kreider admitted the crime to his father, Timothy Scot Kreider, on Tuesday, June 14. His father subsequently contacted the police.

More at link:
http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/205755

 

[luthersmama]

A poster on Steve Huff's blog says that Alec had been in a treatment facility (Philhaven) for a week or so after the killings and that he is a seriously disturbed kid.

 

[PSUfan]

I just found out about this now. What a relief that an arrest was made. Here is the recent press conference link.

http://http://www.wgal.com/video/13516149/index.html