Paperwork Details Elisa Baker’s Involvement In Investigation

[Wise Old Owl]

Maybe in relation to the dismemberment? Remember they also took the tub and bathroom sink and garbage disposal under the kitchen sink.

Not saying whether I believe she died in any way that could be considered natural. Just floating a possibility why the floor, ceiling, and wall could provide evidence for something other than the murder, itself.

JMO

I don't remember seeing where they took the bath tub and we have never seen confirmation that there was a garbage disposal.

If Zahra was dismembered in her bedroom IMO there would be a whole lot more floor and pieces of wall missing. IMO she was killed there - but I believe she was dismembered in the kitchen.

 

[Bia.]

I would like to add that not all cancers are the same. Zahra had plenty of time to receive treatment, yes..thats why it's called medical neglect. They neglected to get help or treatment. I can, without a shadow of a doubt, tell you that I saw a woman who was on minimal meds (sugar pills, etc) ...to needing morphine 24/7 to ease the pain within 4 days. Walking on Sunday and in little/no pain to full blown morphine on Thursday. They alternated between the morphine and another pain med that I cannot think of a this time. This tells me that dying of cancer must be one of the most painful thing possible without the drugs.

I feel so sorry for her if it had been medical neglect. They had time to get help but it would have hit hard and fast. I know this for a fact. I saw it with my own 2 eyes. I signed the hospice papers myself. Cancer can be years or months in the making, but it can take days to die. She may have looked alright to others but it was a slow deterioration. They could have slowly watched her die. Then when it came around for its last lap..it could have very well only been a few days of being bedridden before death.

So sad on so many levels. Neither choice is a lesser of 2 evils. Medical Neglect = Physical Murder (to me they are both practically the same)

In a nutshell : Cancer relapse can in fact take days without chemo/radiation. The cancer itself has been trying to kill you from day 1 so they had plenty of time to seek help. BUT, the tell-tale Captain Obvious signs can show up a mere couple of days before death. Immediate family should have seen it coming for weeks though if they were attentive

I think some of the 911 call is telling. They hadn't at the time seen her for days (not that particular time but when she passed) They let her relapse and they let her die in pain..alone..in her room..and the left her there. By AB saying she only comes out when she wants something, we checked on her because she was coughing, etc. These things probably really happened. They didn't kill her, remember those words?

Zahra most likely died from medical neglect which I feel is murder.

ETA~ Zahra had bone cancer and then developed lung cancer

As much as I would love to believe she passed away peacefully in her sleep due to an illness, in my heart, I know she didn't.

LE would not be taking floor boards, sinks, panels, parts of walls, etc. if something terrible didn't happen. There would be no evidence aside from her mattress if she died in bed.

 

[Etilema]

I don't remember seeing where they took the bath tub and we have never seen confirmation that there was a garbage disposal.

If Zahra was dismembered in her bedroom IMO there would be a whole lot more floor and pieces of wall missing. IMO she was killed there - but I believe she was dismembered in the kitchen.

I was going by the photos/video from inside the house. You're right about the bathtub--I was mistaken. You're right, as far as I know, about there not being confirmation of a garbage disposal; I am conjecturing based on the fact that the part of the pipes that was missing under the sink is where a garbage disposal would be.

HOWEVER, I just noticed something in the motion to reduce bond that was released today that may explain some of the destruction of the home. Point 4g says:

Also on that day Elisa Baker provided information about the location of additional items of evidence that could be located at the home.
http://www.wsoctv.com/download/2010/1116/25803730.pdf

And goes on to say (under h) that LE examined the home and found the evidence where she said.

 

[dar107]

If medical neglect, why the dismemberment. It's one thing to be able to sit by and do nothing well a child is sick, just because your a lazy or you just don't care. Its one thing to try and cover up your neglect by burying a body or dumping a body in water, a landfill etc. IMO that would not logically lead to saying, well the best way to get rid of her is to take her apart. That says to me that you have been thinking about how you are going to cover up the crime that you committed to the body.

I am just so mad and sad and sick today, every time you think it can't get more disturbing, it does. I was still holding a faint hope that the dismemberment theories would be dis proven somehow, even though in my heart I knew it was likely true.

 

[CarmelEyesD]

As much as I would love to believe she passed away peacefully in her sleep due to an illness, in my heart, I know she didn't.

LE would not be taking floor boards, sinks, panels, parts of walls, etc. if something terrible didn't happen. There would be no evidence aside from her mattress if she died in bed.[/QUOTE]


Not necessarily...what were the walls made of? drywall? painted? It is possible if Zarah passed from untreated cancer and was in that much pain, there could be scratches or claw marks on the walls. It is also possible she wrote on the wall, or marks from chains or handcuffs on the wall, if she was restrained. Some marks may have been painted over but deep scratches may still be viewable.

 

[Nana46]

If medical neglect, why the dismemberment. It's one thing to be able to sit by and do nothing well a child is sick, just because your a lazy or you just don't care. Its one thing to try and cover up your neglect by burying a body or dumping a body in water, a landfill etc. IMO that would not logically lead to saying, well the best way to get rid of her is to take her apart. That says to me that you have been thinking about how you are going to cover up the crime that you committed to the body.

I am just so mad and sad and sick today, every time you think it can't get more disturbing, it does. I was still holding a faint hope that the dismemberment theories would be dis proven somehow, even though in my heart I knew it was likely true.

I feel just like you...mad and sick....I keep hearing a line Sally Fields said in the movie Steel Magnolias....she was so distraught and angry at the cemetary and she said she "just wanted to hit something." That is exactly how I feel tonight....I want to just hit something....hard.:banghead:
I realize it won't help but I am so dang frustrated.

 

[4BB]

As much as I would love to believe she passed away peacefully in her sleep due to an illness, in my heart, I know she didn't.

LE would not be taking floor boards, sinks, panels, parts of walls, etc. if something terrible didn't happen. There would be no evidence aside from her mattress if she died in bed.

I don't think she passed away peacefully. I think she suffered. I think after they let her die they dismembered her. They wanted her dead and knew she was dying. In their warped minds thought they technically didn't do it. They just let it happen. They killed her without touching her.

When she finally passed what were they supposed to do? They wanted her gone for good and they tried to hide all evidence and fake an abduction for more attention. Thats where the floor boards, walls, sinks come into play...the dismemberment.
They both got rid of Zahra in one vehicle together. They then drove the other vehicle to dump the mattress while the first car aired out. That's why the death scent was in both vehicles. Body in one car and mattress in the other.

ETA~ I'm not saying they thought "Oh Zahra choked on a peanut before we could get to her...lets dismember her up" I'm saying they willingly let her die. They killed her. It was no accident. They planned what to do with her

Just my opinion

 

[s_finch]

As much as I would love to believe she passed away peacefully in her sleep due to an illness, in my heart, I know she didn't.

LE would not be taking floor boards, sinks, panels, parts of walls, etc. if something terrible didn't happen. There would be no evidence aside from her mattress if she died in bed.[/QUOTE]


Not necessarily...what were the walls made of? drywall? painted? It is possible if Zarah passed from untreated cancer and was in that much pain, there could be scratches or claw marks on the walls. It is also possible she wrote on the wall, or marks from chains or handcuffs on the wall, if she was restrained. Some marks may have been painted over but deep scratches may still be viewable.

I have wondered if Zahra left messages in some way, perhaps scratched into drywall, hidden behind headboard or under bed.

 

[CarmelEyesD]

I certainly hope she did, as well as in the unmailed letters to her friend.

 

[tiredblondy]

I have wondered if Zahra left messages in some way, perhaps scratched into drywall, hidden behind headboard or under bed.

We can only wish !

 

[Breathe]

Well I am not sure I am not going crazy, but....
There is a place in me that says that anyone that can do anything that horrific may actually enjoy the telling of the story as if they were doing it all over again.Call me nuts...But she is too much of a con artist and a deviant, evil person for me not to consider that.

I totally agree with you and will go one step further and say that EB thinks she's cool because of the heinousness of this crime. This is the most attention she's ever gotten (doesn't matter that negative). In her eyes she's a big celebrity in jail. She's in control and everyone wants something from her.

This act of crime will have given her 'fear factor' status that she craves. She wants to be different so badly and now she has a meal ticket. She can't wait to sit around and compare crime stories with other inmates. She'll be the first one to brag 'Oh, you only committed murder, well listen to what I did...". She'll want other inmates to fear her because of her level of crime. In her eyes, she finally became the cool, popular girl and wants everyone to notice her.

Look out, cuz that girl has been the conductor of the crazy train a long time and she racing full steam ahead.

 

[NoeticSoul]

I totally agree with you and will go one step further and say that EB thinks she's cool because of the heinousness of this crime. This is the most attention she's ever gotten (doesn't matter that negative). In her eyes she's a big celebrity in jail. She's in control and everyone wants something from her.

This act of crime will have given her 'fear factor' status that she craves. She wants to be different so badly and now she has a meal ticket. She can't wait to sit around and compare crime stories with other inmates. She'll be the first one to brag 'Oh, you only committed murder, well listen to what I did...". She'll want other inmates to fear her because of her level of crime. In her eyes, she finally became the cool, popular girl and wants everyone to notice her.

Look out, cuz that girl has been the conductor of the crazy train a long time and she racing full steam ahead.

BBM

a) You are so right.

b) I don't think she'll survive one day in general pop. Me thinks she better pick Door #2.

 

[sayd]

What her primary cancer is/was isn't really relevant. The fact is she did have lung cancer. And you are incorrect that it is never days. My grandfather had liver cancer. Chemo. Nearly 14 months in "remission" and lung cancer popped up. More chemo. He did very well for two years. One day he reported feeling a tightness in his chest. He wasn't in any extreme pain..... but thought maybe a bad cold or something was coming on. The next day he reported feeling light headed. With his history I decided to take him in. His lungs were COVERED. He was placed on a resp. and within 24 hours it was obvious there was no hope. Less than 72 hours total from the first sign of not feeling well.

I worked in veterinary oncology and while much trickier than human medicine (they can't tell you if they aren't feeling well).... I saw it happen ALL the time. Owner brings animal in... just stopped eating... not sure he was fine yesterday. Testing reveals cancer and the animal is gone within days.

No, I'm not wrong on this. If you have bone cancer, it may end up in other organs - lungs, etc., but it is still bone cancer. I know, I had lymphoma, cancer of the lymph system, but it spread and developed a huge tumor in my lungs. I did NOT have lung cancer; I had lymphoma that spread to my lungs. This is a HUGE difference. Many, many people do not understand this, but it is an absolute fact, and I think critical to what happened in this case. Zahra's chance of relapse was very small.

So from what you posted your grandfather had liver cancer which metastasized to his lungs. His "lung" cancer was a secondary cancer from his initial cancer which was liver cancer. This is NOT the same as having lung cancer.

I also would like to add that Zahra apparently developed the lung cancer from one of the chemotherapies from the bone cancer treatment; I don't know how this might react differently.

But at any rate, dying from cancer is extremely painful, and cancer patients have lots and lots of morphine to help them through. Allowing a child to die without treatment is absolutely horrendous.

 

[Aedrys]

I wonder if EB read up on the Casey Anthony case and actually thought telling LE where the body was would be a good idea? I cannot FATHOM what she was thinking telling them the body was DISMEMBERED and thought that would get her walking free? Oh it was just a misunderstanding involving drugs and a chainsaw? (Not saying that's what happened, but I swear that what she might have said to LE. I wouldn't be surprised).

And seriously, I am scratching my head at the lawyer putting forth that motion. Did they do it with a blindfold over their eyes? Why would any lawyer worth anything think admitting to DISMEMBERING a CHILD would get their client a walk out the door?

If that wasn't enough, AB was SHOCKED? WHERE DID HE THINK ZAHRA WAS? He is so full of it it makes me furious. He had to know, even if this was an illness, that she was sick. And what, he didn't notice her gone one day, not notice the evidence of a body dismembered in his own house? Didn't notice not one but two cars smelled really bad most likely? Sounds like he's killed WAY too many of his own brain cells. Or he's just not that smart. I don't know, but I am BLOWN AWAY by his response. There is NO WAY he's not involved in this! I can't WAIT to hear him explain this in a court of law at trial.

Btw, I do believe the DP can be put back on the table. It was in the Caylee case when Caylee was finally found with duct tape over her mouth. I hope to GOD they didn't take it off. This is too gruesome and horrific for her to NOT get a needle in her arm! They both should!

 

[Aedrys]

I totally agree with you and will go one step further and say that EB thinks she's cool because of the heinousness of this crime. This is the most attention she's ever gotten (doesn't matter that negative). In her eyes she's a big celebrity in jail. She's in control and everyone wants something from her.

This act of crime will have given her 'fear factor' status that she craves. She wants to be different so badly and now she has a meal ticket. She can't wait to sit around and compare crime stories with other inmates. She'll be the first one to brag 'Oh, you only committed murder, well listen to what I did...". She'll want other inmates to fear her because of her level of crime. In her eyes, she finally became the cool, popular girl and wants everyone to notice her.

Look out, cuz that girl has been the conductor of the crazy train a long time and she racing full steam ahead.

I soooooooooo want her extradited to Florida and put into a jail cell with Casey Anthony. They can tell each other crazy stories ALL DAY LONG! They can be BFF's and the most popular in jail in their own minds! Dang, these two are made for each other!

Who else thinks we're going to eventually have jailhouse letters from EB?

 

[sayd]

I also wanted to thank you for noticing the signs and getting your grandfather to the hospital; huge, huge difference. I mean knowing her history....and she was only 10 years old. A reasonable person should have noticed.

OK, I better shut up again....

 

[Virgogalsue]

No, I'm not wrong on this. If you have bone cancer, it may end up in other organs - lungs, etc., but it is still bone cancer. I know, I had lymphoma, cancer of the lymph system, but it spread and developed a huge tumor in my lungs. I did NOT have lung cancer; I had lymphoma that spread to my lungs. This is a HUGE difference. Many, many people do not understand this, but it is an absolute fact, and I think critical to what happened in this case. Zahra's chance of relapse was very small.

So from what you posted your grandfather had liver cancer which metastasized to his lungs. His "lung" cancer was a secondary cancer from his initial cancer which was liver cancer. This is NOT the same as having lung cancer.

I also would like to add that Zahra apparently developed the lung cancer from one of the chemotherapies from the bone cancer treatment; I don't know how this might react differently.

But at any rate, dying from cancer is extremely painful, and cancer patients have lots and lots of morphine to help them through. Allowing a child to die without treatment is absolutely horrendous.

My brother died from lymphoma which had spread to his liver. He was only 4 years old. As a child it spread exceptionally quickly.

He had a stomach ache, which the Doctor believed was 'nerves' from being a shy boy and just starting school.

One night, he became VERY ill, VERY suddenly. He died the next day. Childhood cancer can spread very, very rapidly.

But more than most...AB should have known that!

 

[Virgogalsue]

I wonder if EB read up on the Casey Anthony case and actually thought telling LE where the body was would be a good idea? I cannot FATHOM what she was thinking telling them the body was DISMEMBERED and thought that would get her walking free? Oh it was just a misunderstanding involving drugs and a chainsaw? (Not saying that's what happened, but I swear that what she might have said to LE. I wouldn't be surprised).

And seriously, I am scratching my head at the lawyer putting forth that motion. Did they do it with a blindfold over their eyes? Why would any lawyer worth anything think admitting to DISMEMBERING a CHILD would get their client a walk out the door?

If that wasn't enough, AB was SHOCKED? WHERE DID HE THINK ZAHRA WAS? He is so full of it it makes me furious. He had to know, even if this was an illness, that she was sick. And what, he didn't notice her gone one day, not notice the evidence of a body dismembered in his own house? Didn't notice not one but two cars smelled really bad most likely? Sounds like he's killed WAY too many of his own brain cells. Or he's just not that smart. I don't know, but I am BLOWN AWAY by his response. There is NO WAY he's not involved in this! I can't WAIT to hear him explain this in a court of law at trial.

Btw, I do believe the DP can be put back on the table. It was in the Caylee case when Caylee was finally found with duct tape over her mouth. I hope to GOD they didn't take it off. This is too gruesome and horrific for her to NOT get a needle in her arm! They both should!

I honestly think that she actually believes that if she did not actually murder Zahra herself, that she can peg this ENTIRE story on AB...

Her lawyers can advise her...but I can easily imagine that EB thinks that HER OWN strategy is far more clever!!!

Sheesh!

 

[Harmony 2]

How about the removal of the wall behind the bed and the floor beneath it??? I can see neglect leading to a body decomposing on the bed, and thus the mattress not being evidence of "murder" - but the freaking wall BEHIND the bed and the floor underneath??? Something horrendous happened in Zahra's room IMHO.... I would LOVE to have someone on here explain to me that they needed the wall behind the bed and floor beneath the bed for some other reason. I am all ears.... :furious::furious::furious:

I agree with you that something horrendous happened in Zahra's room.

However, another possibility is emesis (vomit) from poisoning. That would have made her very ill and goes along with AB's statement about a stomach virus.

 

[Virgogalsue]

I agree with you that something horrendous happened in Zahra's room.

However, another possibility is emesis (vomit) from poisoning. That would have made her very ill and goes along with AB's statement about a stomach virus.

Coughing and vomiting from congestive heart failure is also a possibility?! Her little immune system could have been weakened from the usual autumn coughs and colds going around...if her cancer had returned, that could have been sufficient to kill her if she did not get immediate medical treatment?