!!!!!!!!!! Patsy did it!!!!!!!!

[BBB167893]

"Then she would have been busted for sure. Her husband may have woken up, there would have been footprints in the snow, the neighbors might have seen or heard the car leaving, evidence or cadaver scent could have been left in the car, and LE could have felt the hood of the car and known it had been driven lately."

Yeah, it would have been too risky. Remember, Susan Smith was still pretty fresh in people's minds.

"Besides that.......I don't think that even Patsy could have dumped her daughter in a shallow grave or at the side of the road somewhere. Her actions with the staging (Jonbenet's favorite blanket, the heart in her hand) show that she had affection for her daughter (it just wasn't as strong as her temper was, IMO)."

Yes, whomever did this felt very bad about it.

"IMO there's no way a lady having beaten cancer is going to kill her daughter 'cause she wet the bed.....cancer puts life into perspective very quickly. People figure out what is really important and what is not...bedwetting is not. I know families who have gone through it and they are just glad to have one more day...their family, their kids.."

Well, that idea is wrong, Tex. Cancer changes you, makes you feel differently. My father was the greatest guy I knew. When he found out, he was a raging engine of self-destruction, and it bled over to other people in his life.

"Why didn't patsy and john just claim that the big bash in her head was an accident?"

Because that's what they ALL say. Besides, the vaginal injuries would have been a dead giveaway.

"Oh and patsy could easily had the strength to bash the kids head in. She was 6 years old. Her head was still far from being fully developed. Dont be so naive."

Thank you!

"Where did you hear that she said that?"

I think I spotted in in the NE

"No, her death is not what I wanted, now she's taken her dirty little secrets to the grave. The woman is not innocent because she died or even because she wasnt brought to justice (OJ, MJ, Robert Blake come to mind???). A criminal who dies is still a criminal. At best, Patsy was still an accomplice who covered-up her daughter's death!!!"

Yeah, should we let OJ Simpson off the hook when he dies?

"Super Dave, WE/I never knew that - HOW'd you know that?"

Henry Lee has been on TV a lot lately. he said at least one of them was found there.

"Wasn't that handwriting gone over with a fine tooth comb back when JonBenet first died? Didn't they check Patsy's writing against the ransom note?"

Yes, they did. And the consensus was that, out of nearly one-hundred people they tested, only one of them showed evidence of having written it: Patsy.

I quote:

Chet Ubowski (who did the most extensive analysis):

"This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey."

Leonard Speckin was prepared to testify that there was only an infinitestimal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs.

And so on.

Everyone agrees on one thing: whomever wrote the captions in the family photo album wrote the note.

"I know that the Grand Jury didn't believe that either Ramsey killed JonBenet because there was no evidence that they did it."

Wrong. They believed the Ramseys didn't do it because they could believe a parent could inflict those kinds of injuries. Don't take my word for it. They actually said that.

To which FBI agent Ron Walker responded that parents can and have killed their children in every way you can think of.

"It remains a fact that when the grandy jury heard this case they didn't have nearly the evidence that we have today."

Thank you! That's right!

 

[BloodshotEye]

Try as I may, I can't seem to make the "Patsy Did It" theory stick.
I was open to the possibility, until I read the autopsy report. The report findings lead to the conclusion that strangulation was the cause of death. I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened. The photo of the fracture, suggests that if JBR was alive at the time of the head injury, there would have been a significant amount of blood evidence at the house.

I will provide the link to both below. However, if you prefer not to view these graphic photos, or read the complete report, I totally understand.

The context of this report, is what appeared to be a court hearing on the
Petition for Writ of Certiorari, by the coroner of Boulder County. The respondents were were: ABC, INC.; BOULDER PUBLISHING, INC.; CBS, INC.; DENVER POST CORPORATION; LEHMAN COMMUNICATIONS, INC.; NBC, INC.; AND MCGRAW-HILL BROADCASTING, INC., d/b/a KMGH TV. The petition was denied, and they released the autopsy report, along with "newly released portions" of the autopsy report.

I'll snip some of the most important findings.

"FINAL DIAGNOSIS:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck
B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck
C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage
E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

III. Abrasion of right cheek
IV. Abrasion/contusion, posterior right shoulder
V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg
VI. Abrasion and vancular congestion of vaginal mucosa
VII. Ligature of right wrist" end of first snip

Newly Released Portions of the Autopsy Report:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck

II. Craniocerebral injuries
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage

Note: In the "newly released portions of the autopsy report findings" there are slight difference in the list of injuries related to cause of death and other injuries. The cause of death and injuries are the same.

"CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma."

"REMAINDER OF EXTERNAL EXAMINATION: (text excluded up to this point):
No scalp trauma is identified."

"INTERNAL EXAM: (text excluded up to this point)...
Skull and Brain:
Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of this area of hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area forward to the right frontal area across the parietal portion of the skull. the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures approximately 8.5 inches in length. On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture.

My comments:
The strangulation was effected with a simple cord around the neck. Nothing very complicated. Very simple. The garotte was an "accessory" that was not used to tighten the cord, or othewise effect the strangulation. It was likely an 'accessory', that the perp liked to have, and who knows - maybe use on other occassions, in a fetish sort of way. The perp appeared to have used it in a way that entangled JBRs hair in it; but not to cause strangulation.

Warning: link below is to the CandyRose site, and is the page for the autopsy report and photos.
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

 

[Wrinkles]

Hello BloodshotEye,

You wrote:
"I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened."

It is almost an absolute that JBR was still breathing, and with her little heart beating, when the head wound was sustained. It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped.

Of course, I defer to an expert per the above.

As per whether Patsy did or did not cause the head blow, that is another story. As per whether the fibers found in the garotted knot had anything to do with Patsy possibly making the garotte, one has to consider based on the evidence.

W

 

[southcitymom]

Hello BloodshotEye,

You wrote:
"I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened."

It is almost an absolute that JBR was still breathing, and with her little heart beating, when the head wound was sustained. It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped.

Of course, I defer to an expert per the above.

As per whether Patsy did or did not cause the head blow, that is another story. As per whether the fibers found in the garotted knot had anything to do with Patsy possibly making the garotte, one has to consider based on the evidence.

W

Your understanding of the head wound is similar to mine. Most experts agree that it occurred prior to the strangulation.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hi Southcitymom,

Thanks for responding. I might add "prior to the full affect of a complete strangulation" (i.e. the garotte might have been there, but the child's blood flow and respiration had not yet been stopped by it or as a result of the brain injury yet.)

Bye the way... Do you know if anyone has conjectured whether the small round bruises on little Jon might have been made by someone using the butt end of the paint brush to poke her, i.e. for any reason or to try and break the brush?

Also...do you know if all of those round marks were on her right body?

W

 

[southcitymom]

Hi Southcitymom,

Thanks for responding. I might add "prior to the full affect of a complete strangulation" (i.e. the garotte might have been there, but the child's blood flow and respiration had not yet been stopped by it or as a result of the brain injury yet.)

Bye the way... Do you know if anyone has conjectured whether the small round bruises on little Jon might have been made by someone using the butt end of the paint brush to poke her, i.e. for any reason or to try and break the brush?

Also...do you know if all of those round marks were on her right body?

I am not much help about the little bruises - I do not recall what side of her body they were on and I have not read any discussion in regards to the little bruises being made by the paint brush. That is very interesting. I may research it a bit later.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Hello BloodshotEye,
You wrote:
"I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened."

It is almost an absolute that JBR was still breathing, and with her little heart beating, when the head wound was sustained. It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped.

Of course, I defer to an expert per the above.

As per whether Patsy did or did not cause the head blow, that is another story. As per whether the fibers found in the garotted knot had anything to do with Patsy possibly making the garotte, one has to consider based on the evidence. W

Hi Wrinkles. Good of you to post. Technically, I think we agree pretty much straight across the board. Unless my eyes have totally dissolved into a blur.

I agree with most aspects of your theory. I agree that JBR's heart may have been beating, to the extent that it was able to pump some blood into vascularized tissue. So we're sort of on the same page, at that point. However, I don't believe it is an "absolute", that the heart had to be physically beating. Maybe consider that the heart is beating, and a cut would result in blood loss. Now consider that the heart beat is stopping or has ceased to beat. The blood flow correspondingly stops. Any cut, may result in some seepage of blood or blood serum (fluid component to blood), but not the gush of blood one would expect when the tissue has blood flow and a beating heart.

According to the autopsy report, no brain swelling was evident, and there was only a very thin layer (7 or 8cc) of hemorage in this area of the fracture. 7 or 8ccs is maybe...2 teaspoons at most (somone feel free to make the exact conversion). This is not the amount of blood loss, one might expect, from such a massive head injury.

I agree, (with a slight clarification) with your expectation that "It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped". The autopsy report conclusions suggest exactly that; less then 2 teaspoons of blood into the area of the fracture, and no swelling of the brain.
Quoting Autopsy Report: On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture.

The slight clarification I would make, is that, there could be a very slight amount of bleeding, if JBR was dying, or already dead (for perhaps a minute or so, any ER nurse/dr. out there feel free to adjust time). This amount of seeping or "bleeding" might largely be a function of an individual's coagulation/clotting time.

I agree with your point about the garotte. Who knows who made it. Profilers seem to suggest that the making of a garotte is a "guy" thing. Did a guy make it for Patsy? Who knows. At this point, I'm pretty much open to anything.

Editing: to drop in quote from autopsy re: hemmorage and normal architecture of the brain.

 

[kelly london]

here is my ONE BIG QUESTION.....


IF and its a BIG IF...there was an intruder, how in the world did he/she KNOW the alarm system was OFF and that the police weren't on their way once they entered the house? just want this answered

 

[BBB167893]

"According to the autopsy report, no brain swelling was evident"

Look again. It says that the sulci are narrowed and the gyri are flattened. That means the brain had swelled so much it was flat against the skull.

 

[southcitymom]

here is my ONE BIG QUESTION.....


IF and its a BIG IF...there was an intruder, how in the world did he/she KNOW the alarm system was OFF and that the police weren't on their way once they entered the house? just want this answered

They wouldn't - they couldn't.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hello SuperDave,

You know, I had read that there was evidence of swelling, but had not confirmed this factually (it would have taken research of documents and terms and asking doctor friends.) You wrote:

"Look again. It says that the sulci are narrowed and the gyri are flattened. That means the brain had swelled so much it was flat against the skull."

Thanks for jogging my memory on this (and for sharing from all of your research and study.) I'm going to assume that the narrowed sulci and flattened gyri are indicative of swelling. Also, it seems to me that I had read that an expert (or maybe more than one) felt that the head injury must have been sustained at least an hour prior to death (probably based on the evidence)?

SuperDave, BloodshotEye brought up an interesting point with a garotte being thought to be a guy kinda thing. Of course, this would depend upon what this particular garotte looked like. I often do guy kinda things (a practical thing to accomplish a task based on some type of science I have learned) without knowing the actual name of them at times i.e. I might use a lever, or a fulcrum and balance, or I might use the handle of a spoon in a loop of rope, twisting it to tighten the loop. Is there a picture of the actual garotte that can be seen? I have heard that whoever made this didn't do a knot quite right to make a good garotte? But was there some type of cubscout or boyscout training on how to make a garotte that this thing was kind of modeled after? I'm not aware of the full thoughts on this?

Ah yes, there are many times when I might "punt" on how to do some practical thing...maybe I haven't put something together quite right, but it performs the same task. As a girlscout, I learned how to make a number of knots many years ago. In fact, I am sure, I learned how to make a hangman's noose at some point (perhaps my brothers showed me?) Was Patsy a Brownie or Girl Scout?

So what do you think SD...might Patsy have known how to make the garotte that was found? Is this a cub scout or boy scout kinda thing that someone might have known?

ALSO, SuperDave... As I look at the autopsy photos, I can't help but think that whoever put that particular rope or twine, or whatever it actually was, around JBRs neck, if they were an adult, did not do so just for a momentary pleasure for they or her and with the intent that she would live afterwards and just scoot off normally in the morning (I just can't buy the erotic asphixia type scenario yet). Surely, an adult would NOT have thought that the rope or twine would NOT have left a mark on her neck (causing someone to question.) I am inclined to believe that whoever put the rope on JBRs neck:

1. was completely clueless about what their use of it would do or show on her neck (and I, so far, cannot buy this was done by a child on a late Dec. 25th)

2. had the intention to kill her (or stage a killing, thinking she was already dead), leaving her body with rope marks, unconcerned.

3. had the intention to do what they wished by use of the rope, then carry her off dead or alive - figuring they would be immune from that which the rope marks would mean.

Has there been a discussion about this particular rope or twine? I understand Patsy bought some things at a hardware store in the weeks prior to JBRs death. Was this rope/twine something she purchased then? I see the pictures and cannot discern if this is a soft but strong kind of nylon product OR if it is a stickery kind of jute twine. I do see scratches on the back of the child's neck, as if little JBR wrestled against the use of the rope or someone wrestled to put it on her. I also see bruises (hemorrhages) from the rope's use.

Thanks in advace for your thoughts SD, or for anyone elses's who would like to share.

W

 

[Juliet10]

All the top experts agree that she was strangled first. Cyril wecht and others. She had broken blood vessels in her eyes a classic and sure sign of strangulation for the cause of death. No ethical expert will dispute long standing forensic facts. If she was bashed on the head first huge blood stains would've been everywhere. There would be no way to clean up all the blood and they didn't have . luminol would've shown a cleanuped crime scene.

The human head has tons of vessels in it. I had a small cut on my head on my head when i bumped my head on table when I picked up my shoes and my skull wasn't even cracked. Blood kept pouring and pouring and pouring out and wouldn't stop and it wasn't a cut that need stitches. I thought it was bad cut that needed stitches because of all the blood. She was definately strangled first.

This doesn't fit with the classic Thomas theory so many feel the need to explain it away.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hi Juliet10,

As far as I know, there was no scalp laceration, despite the injury to the skull. This was a closed wound, thus there would not have been any bleeding from the scalp.

W

 

[Jolynna]

The forensic pathologists analyzing the case for Boulder police estimated that between 10 and 45 minutes passed between the time JonBenet sustained her head wound and the time she was strangled, according to author Schiller.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hello Jolynna,

Thanks for hopping in! I remain a bit unclear... Do you think the forensic pathologists were saying that JBR'S strangulation was complete (i.e. no more breathing or heartbeat) within 10 - 45 minutes after the head wound?

Who is "author Schiller"? Author of what?

Thanks a ton.

W

 

[Jolynna]

Hi Wrinkles,
Lawrence Schiller, PMPT

My understanding of the conclusion for the blow to the head coming first was that because of the degree of swelling. The pathologists said that JonBenet would had to have been alive for it to have occured. And she would had to have been alive for at least this length of time for it to be to such a degree.

 

[Jolynna]

Pathologist: No doubt of JonBenet sex assault

Girl was hit on head before she was dead, expert says

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0716jon.htm

 

[Camper]

Hello Jolynna,

Thanks for hopping in! I remain a bit unclear... Do you think the forensic pathologists were saying that JBR'S strangulation was complete (i.e. no more breathing or heartbeat) within 10 - 45 minutes after the head wound?

Who is "author Schiller"? Author of what?

Thanks a ton.

W

--->>WE are accustomed to so much you may not understand PMPT, is called Perfect Murder Perfect Town. GET it, excellent book for reference to this case!

.

 

[Wrinkles]

Thank you Jolynna and Camper!

Your responses and resources were helpful. Camper, I guess it is time to pick up the book, thanks for the recommend.

The following are a few quotes from the link Camper gave. Perhaps they will help others with information, even as they helped me.

"Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine" had been asked to review JonBenet's autopsy report.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0716jon.htm

>>
The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.

"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''

He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''

And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.

"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
<<

W

 

[BBB167893]

"Thanks for jogging my memory on this (and for sharing from all of your research and study.) I'm going to assume that the narrowed sulci and flattened gyri are indicative of swelling."

Specifically, the sulci are the folds of the brain you see in the diagrams. The gyri is the brain matter folded itself.

"Also, it seems to me that I had read that an expert (or maybe more than one) felt that the head injury must have been sustained at least an hour prior to death (probably based on the evidence)?"

Ron Wright, Werner Spitz, Thomas Henry, Henry Lee, etc.

"SuperDave, BloodshotEye brought up an interesting point with a garotte being thought to be a guy kinda thing. Of course, this would depend upon what this particular garotte looked like. I often do guy kinda things (a practical thing to accomplish a task based on some type of science I have learned) without knowing the actual name of them at times i.e. I might use a lever, or a fulcrum and balance, or I might use the handle of a spoon in a loop of rope, twisting it to tighten the loop."

Well, to me, an effective garrote-type device to be used with one hand while molesting her would have the cord wrap completely around her neck and have both ends tied to the handle. That way, one-handed, he can control the pressure as much as he likes.

I"s there a picture of the actual garotte that can be seen?"

Yep.

"I have heard that whoever made this didn't do a knot quite right to make a good garotte?"

That's right. A garrote is a cord with a handle on either end used to strangle. This one was a loop around the neck with a double knot, not a noose knot or a hangman's knot, with a length of cord 1-1/2 feet long that was then mummy-wrapped around the stick. That makes no sense. You'd have to wrap it around your arm to shorten it enough to get any leverage. And if that was the case, there would be NO POINT in putting a handle on it.

"But was there some type of cubscout or boyscout training on how to make a garotte that this thing was kind of modeled after? I'm not aware of the full thoughts on this?"

I've heard it was a Prussik (no idea if I have this right) knot.

"So what do you think SD...might Patsy have known how to make the garotte that was found?"

Michael Kane said that the knot experts they brought in said ANYONE could have made this.

"Is this a cub scout or boy scout kinda thing that someone might have known?"

I never made it to my first merit badge, so I don't know.

"So what do you think SD...might Patsy have known how to make the garotte that was found? Is this a cub scout or boy scout kinda thing that someone might have known?"

The consensus was this was so sloppy, no one with any real knot knowledge did it.

"The forensic pathologists analyzing the case for Boulder police estimated that between 10 and 45 minutes passed between the time JonBenet sustained her head wound and the time she was strangled, according to author Schiller."

That's right.

"Thanks for hopping in! I remain a bit unclear... Do you think the forensic pathologists were saying that JBR'S strangulation was complete (i.e. no more breathing or heartbeat) within 10 - 45 minutes after the head wound?"

That's what they were saying!