GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22

[LadyL]

Based on having spent many months total in Bangkok. Their clothing, mannerisms, English skills, and the fact that within a 1/2 mile radius of the Landmark hotel there are well over 5000 bar girls working on any given night, all of whom are available easily and instantly for a trip to a hotel room. I have never once seen a "normal" Thai woman dress provocatively day or night. They are extremely conservative.

thank you
first-hand accounts are always best

would their demeanour/dress be considered somewhat normal in Western culture?

 

[otto]

People seem to have drawn their own conclusions in this story but it is still just an opinion in the end. No one can conclude that there wasn't anything to his trying to traffic women, it doesn't matter whether or not prostitution is legal in Thailand or the Netherlands, human trafficking is illegal. That is how women are usually trafficked by telling them there's a job waiting to them as a **dancer** or a *hostess**, trafficked women aren't told that they're being sent to work as prostitutes. No one forced him to be there and no one forced him to take part in it, I think that he was the one to initiate the whole idea of trafficking women. It's not logical that he smelled a rat and was just playing along knowing that he could have been arrested again. That has been one of his excuses for years now when he gets caught at something, he was either on to them and just playing along or he says he was just lying.

That being said, IMHO, the time for Thai police to have investigated this would have been in 2008. If it's true that they're looking into it now, imho, it's too little too late and won't go anywhere.

In a country where prostitution is illegal, and women in that profession are walking the street, hidden in dark places, and controlled by pimps, trafficking in women is possible. In a country where the prostitute is in a street level window, clearly not under the influence of drugs, trying to entice men to come in, it's pretty hard to imagine that an unwillingly woman would be stuck. I don't think Joran knew what he was doing.

 

[otto]

I don't know if we're veering too far off topic but here are some links to human trafficking info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking

The most common destinations for victims of human trafficking are Thailand, Japan, Israel, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Turkey and the US, according to a report by the UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime).[39]

Netherlands
In Netherlands, it is estimated that there are from 1,000 to 7,000 trafficking victims a year. Most police investigations relate to legal sex businesses, with all sectors of prostitution being well represented, but with window brothels being particularly overrepresented.[88][89][90] In 2008, there were 809 registered trafficking victims, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry. All victims from Hungary were female and were forced into prostitution.[91][92] Out of all Amsterdam's 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes, more than 75% are from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia, according to a former prostitute who produced a report about the sex trade in Amsterdam, in 2008.[93] An article in Le Monde in 1997 found that 80% of prostitutes in the Netherlands were foreigners and 70% had no immigration papers.[94][95]

http://www.catwinternational.org/factbook/Netherlands.php

In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)

In the Netherlands, 33% of the prostitutes come from countries outside of the European Union, this increases to 50% in the larger cities (Altink, 1995) ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characteristic, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Since 1990 in the Netherlands, the number of trafficked women from Central and Eastern European Countries has tripled. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

From your link:

"In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked."

Illegal alien working as a prostitute is interpreted as "trafficking".

"Prostituted women in shop windows in the Netherlands pay rent for the windows, about 150 florins (US$ 90) a day."

Florins have never been a currency in the Netherlands.

There's something funny about the information on that website.

 

[asiabrasil]

would their demeanour/dress be considered somewhat normal in Western culture?

I would say so.

 

[otto]

the laptop being opened & closed was in very early reports

The quote from the taxi driver that I posted is from June 3. That is the day he was arrested.

 

[annalia]

The quote from the taxi driver that I posted is from June 3. That is the day he was arrested.

In the article you linked it wasn't an actual quote from the taxi driver though, there is a difference. And because it wasn't reported in that one article doesn't mean that the taxi drivers didn't say that joran was on his computer.

I don't understand why it is is even an issue, I recall reports very early on about the laptop too.

 

[annalia]

In a country where prostitution is illegal, and women in that profession are walking the street, hidden in dark places, and controlled by pimps, trafficking in women is possible. In a country where the prostitute is in a street level window, clearly not under the influence of drugs, trying to entice men to come in, it's pretty hard to imagine that an unwillingly woman would be stuck. I don't think Joran knew what he was doing.

Did you read the information I posted? That's just a small sample, there is a lot more information from different sources all about human trafficking if you wanted to read about it. It isn't just about whether or not prostitution is legal.

here are a few more links.
http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/Increase-in-human-trafficking-in-Netherlands_49349.html

http://english.bnrm.nl/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071965/
From the msnbc link

In the heart of Europe
Farther along the trafficking pipeline, hundreds of women and girls are smuggled into Europe every day and forced onto the streets of cities like Hamburg, Paris, London and Amsterdam.







.

 

[georger]

This is the same that I think of Joran. Everybody is trying to paint him as this human trafficking criminal that goes around the world killing woman, and this is far from reality.

In reality he is just a self entitled brat with a bad temper that thinks the world owes him. He didn't plan to kill Nattalie or Stephany, hell this kid probably couldn't plan past what his next meal would be.

As far as the human trafficing, that is just a complete joke. This kid is just a wanna be gangster that had fantasies about pimping hoes, he needs to stop listening to so much rap music. He is just like the young men you see his age that run around and claim to be associated with a gang or with the mob. If it wasn't for Pieter de Vries sting providing what he thought to be opportunity for him to start his pimping business, it would have just remained more of his big talk.

Joran is just immoral with a bad temper that killed 2 women. He is not some globe trotting killer of women. Nor is he a human trafficker moving women from Thailand to the Netherlands.

You may very well be correct however the need to investigate and
do discovery in his case, is real. If Joran can be granted prerogatives
so can investigation and investigators> Fair trade.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

 

[georger]

People seem to have drawn their own conclusions in this story but it is still just an opinion in the end. No one can conclude that there wasn't anything to his trying to traffic women, it doesn't matter whether or not prostitution is legal in Thailand or the Netherlands, human trafficking is illegal. That is how women are usually trafficked by telling them there's a job waiting to them as a **dancer** or a *hostess**, trafficked women aren't told that they're being sent to work as prostitutes. No one forced him to be there and no one forced him to take part in it, I think that he was the one to initiate the whole idea of trafficking women. It's not logical that he smelled a rat and was just playing along knowing that he could have been arrested again. That has been one of his excuses for years now when he gets caught at something, he was either on to them and just playing along or he says he was just lying.

That being said, IMHO, the time for Thai police to have investigated this would have been in 2008. If it's true that they're looking into it now, imho, it's too little too late and won't go anywhere.

I always go back to the well. Joran's well is money and instant
gratification. Anything that promotes that is what Joran will pursure
and do :::::::::::::::::: legal somewhere maybe. Not legal in many
places. But potentially destructive at its core in all places. That is
Joran's current dillema and the etiology which brought him to this.
IMHO of course. :waitasec:

 

[marikesh]

the laptop being opened & closed was in very early reports

Plus on his cell constantly also from earlier and later reports.

 

[otto]

Plus on his cell constantly also from earlier and later reports.

I guess that means, according to the taxi drivers, that during the trip between Peru and Chile Joran was chain smoking, sleeping, taking out and putting away his laptop, using his cell phone, and he didn't have a cell phone.

"He gave a truck driver 1,500 Peruvian soles ($525) to take him from Ica, a town south of Lima, to the Chilean border, the driver, Luis Aparcana, said in a TV interview. He said van der Sloot didn't speak Spanish very well and carried two suitcases.

Aparcana said van der Sloot "was worried because he kept smoking cigarettes. He didn't have a cell phone but he had a laptop that he would take out, handle and then put back."

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=7476927

 

[suzihawk]

Anita Van der Sloot says in a TV interview that she spoke to her son, Joran, while he was trying to reach Chile after allegedly killing a young woman in Peru.

She says he was speaking to her by cellphone in a taxi and got emotional, but denied killing Stephany Flores.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-sloots-mother-says-shes-glad-hes-in-prison/1

 

[otto]

Anita Van der Sloot says in a TV interview that she spoke to her son, Joran, while he was trying to reach Chile after allegedly killing a young woman in Peru.

She says he was speaking to her by cellphone in a taxi and got emotional, but denied killing Stephany Flores.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-sloots-mother-says-shes-glad-hes-in-prison/1

The video in the link is only available in the US, which, for some, is a concern in itself. One wonders: if it's true, why is it restricted to only a small segment of the population? Is it propaganda? If it's fact, why is it restricted? Again, it's always helpful to watch the entire original interview. Nevertheless, all we know for sure is that there was a lot of conflicting information released in the weeks after Joran was arrested.

 

[annalia]

The video in the link is only available in the US, which, for some, is a concern in itself. One wonders: if it's true, why is it restricted to only a small segment of the population? Is it propaganda? If it's fact, why is it restricted? Again, it's always helpful to watch the entire original interview. Nevertheless, all we know for sure is that there was a lot of conflicting information released in the weeks after Joran was arrested.

I don't follow this, where did you see that it was restricted to the US only? The interview was done by a Dutch reporter, part of Anita's interview was in Dutch and part of it was in English.

ABC paid for the rights to air the Dutch interview in the US, reports said that there were others bidding but ABC won the rights. My guess would be whoever had access ABC could see the interview.

Edited to include; The interview was also aired in the Netherlands.

 

[suzihawk]

The video in the link is only available in the US, which, for some, is a concern in itself. One wonders: if it's true, why is it restricted to only a small segment of the population? Is it propaganda? If it's fact, why is it restricted? Again, it's always helpful to watch the entire original interview. Nevertheless, all we know for sure is that there was a lot of conflicting information released in the weeks after Joran was arrested.

It's from an interview she gave for Dutch television so I don't know where you get the idea that it's only available in the US. Propaganda? :waitasec:

Indeed, there was a lot of conflicting information in the early days after he commited the murder. But this particular bit of information came directly from his own mother's mouth.

 

[otto]

I don't follow this, where did you see that it was restricted to the US only? The interview was done by a Dutch reporter, part of Anita's interview was in Dutch and part of it was in English.

ABC paid for the rights to air the Dutch interview in the US, reports said that there were others bidding but ABC won the rights. My guess would be whoever had access ABC could see the interview.

Edited to include; The interview was also aired in the Netherlands.

Not so. Access to ABC News is normally widely available, but this edited version of the interview is not available except in the US. The original interview is available internationally.

 

[otto]

It's from an interview she gave for Dutch television so I don't know where you get the idea that it's only available in the US. Propaganda? :waitasec:

Indeed, there was a lot of conflicting information in the early days after he commited the murder. But this particular bit of information came directly from his own mother's mouth.

I'm getting the idea from the ABC News website. The edited version of the interview seems to only be available in the US. Fortunately, the full interview is available internationally. Maybe someone could fill me in on what else is being said during this particular segment, and I can find the segment in the original interview.

 

[hollyblue]

Did you read the information I posted? That's just a small sample, there is a lot more information from different sources all about human trafficking if you wanted to read about it. It isn't just about whether or not prostitution is legal.

here are a few more links.
http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/Increase-in-human-trafficking-in-Netherlands_49349.html

http://english.bnrm.nl/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071965/
From the msnbc link

In the heart of Europe
Farther along the trafficking pipeline, hundreds of women and girls are smuggled into Europe every day and forced onto the streets of cities like Hamburg, Paris, London and Amsterdam.

I believe you are right. We don't know about the "underground" in this "occupation" either. I'm sure all the prostitution in the Netherlands is not all on the up and up IKWIM, and you can never tell who has their dirty little hands in it.

 

[annalia]

Not so. Access to ABC News is normally widely available, but this edited version of the interview is not available except in the US. The original interview is available internationally.

But how is that propaganda?

It says due to rights or contractual limitations. ABC didn't own the interview, they bought the rights to air it. It seems to me that if what was shown only in the US was due to rights or contractual limitations it would be because of whatever was agreed upon when they bought the rights to broadcast it. I don't see propaganda and i don't see where the problem lies, it looks fairly clear to me.

 

[annalia]

Now it's beginning to make more sense. I thought it was strange that Anita did a Dutch interview but parts of it were in English. It seems clear now after reading that, that it was done with the intent to sell it to the American media. Buying the rights to air the segment that was in English for the American audience but outside of the US the Dutch retain the rights not ABC.