GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22

[porkchop]

I don't think an understanding of Dutch is necessary to know the filming, production, and broadcast of the Pieter de Vries show. That information is widely available by searching Pieter de Vries on the internet. Additionally, various talking heads have discussed the production, and Pieter de Vries.

I don't know of any English translation of the program. Automatic internet translations are confusing, and notoriously misleading. The Thais requested a transcript of the program. I don't know if that was produced, or what language it would have been.

It's been some time since I watched the documentary, but it's my understanding that Joran mentioned to an acquaintance that they could make some quick money bringing Thai women to the Netherlands for prostitution. As they drive and discuss the idea, you can see prostitutes in the background (they're in the windows of the buildings). The idea was that women would be told they would be dancing, but Joran thought that once they were in the country, there would be little they could do if they were forced into prostitution. Joran was going to take the women to the Dutch embassy in Thailand and help them apply for a 3 month visa.

Personally, I think that is unrealistic, as prostitution in the Netherlands is out in the open, not a hidden crime. Also, I think that if Joran went to the embassy trying to get visas for Thai women, the embassy would have been suspicious ... if only because of Joran's status as a suspect in Natalee's disappearance.

The acquaintance contacted Pieter de Vries, and the sting operation was hatched. In the video, you can see Pieter and the acquaintance communicating with Joran via computer chat. Joran eventually becomes suspicious of the acquaintance, so he meets Joran in Thailand and they kind of push Joran into producing a couple of women (they want to wrap up the sting). When the women show up at the hotel, they say they need to finish their studies, which is a surprise to Joran. They make it clear that the job and the money does not interest them. Joran claims he can find more women. de Vries eventually takes over communicating with Joran via chat, and tells Joran that he's been caught in a sting. Joran thanks him for the money.

It's my opinion that without the encouragement of the acquaintance and de Vries, and financing from de Vries, Joran's venture would have quickly become nothing more than a passing thought. He did not have any finances to back the idea, and everyone else in documentary was part of the sting operation.

His plan was immoral, but it amounted to nothing for many reasons.

This is the same that I think of Joran. Everybody is trying to paint him as this human trafficking criminal that goes around the world killing woman, and this is far from reality.

In reality he is just a self entitled brat with a bad temper that thinks the world owes him. He didn't plan to kill Nattalie or Stephany, hell this kid probably couldn't plan past what his next meal would be.

As far as the human trafficing, that is just a complete joke. This kid is just a wanna be gangster that had fantasies about pimping hoes, he needs to stop listening to so much rap music. He is just like the young men you see his age that run around and claim to be associated with a gang or with the mob. If it wasn't for Pieter de Vries sting providing what he thought to be opportunity for him to start his pimping business, it would have just remained more of his big talk.

Joran is just immoral with a bad temper that killed 2 women. He is not some globe trotting killer of women. Nor is he a human trafficker moving women from Thailand to the Netherlands.

 

[nosysw]

Joran is just an immoral a-hole with a bad temper that killed 2 women. He is not some globe trotting killer of women. Nor is he a human trafficker moving women from Thailand to the Netherlands.

Just? 2 countries, 2 women (that we know of so far)...I think you're underestimating the man...He may not be good at what he does but it seems like he keeps wanting to up the ante...

 

[annalia]

People seem to have drawn their own conclusions in this story but it is still just an opinion in the end. No one can conclude that there wasn't anything to his trying to traffic women, it doesn't matter whether or not prostitution is legal in Thailand or the Netherlands, human trafficking is illegal. That is how women are usually trafficked by telling them there's a job waiting to them as a **dancer** or a *hostess**, trafficked women aren't told that they're being sent to work as prostitutes. No one forced him to be there and no one forced him to take part in it, I think that he was the one to initiate the whole idea of trafficking women. It's not logical that he smelled a rat and was just playing along knowing that he could have been arrested again. That has been one of his excuses for years now when he gets caught at something, he was either on to them and just playing along or he says he was just lying.

That being said, IMHO, the time for Thai police to have investigated this would have been in 2008. If it's true that they're looking into it now, imho, it's too little too late and won't go anywhere.

 

[annalia]

I don't know if we're veering too far off topic but here are some links to human trafficking info.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking[/ame]

The most common destinations for victims of human trafficking are Thailand, Japan, Israel, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Turkey and the US, according to a report by the UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime).[39]

Netherlands
In Netherlands, it is estimated that there are from 1,000 to 7,000 trafficking victims a year. Most police investigations relate to legal sex businesses, with all sectors of prostitution being well represented, but with window brothels being particularly overrepresented.[88][89][90] In 2008, there were 809 registered trafficking victims, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry. All victims from Hungary were female and were forced into prostitution.[91][92] Out of all Amsterdam's 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes, more than 75% are from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia, according to a former prostitute who produced a report about the sex trade in Amsterdam, in 2008.[93] An article in Le Monde in 1997 found that 80% of prostitutes in the Netherlands were foreigners and 70% had no immigration papers.[94][95]

http://www.catwinternational.org/factbook/Netherlands.php

In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)

In the Netherlands, 33% of the prostitutes come from countries outside of the European Union, this increases to 50% in the larger cities (Altink, 1995) ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characteristic, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

Since 1990 in the Netherlands, the number of trafficked women from Central and Eastern European Countries has tripled. ("Trafficking of Women to the European Union: Characterisitics, Trends and Policy Issues," European Conference on Trafficking in Women, (June 1996), IOM, 7 May 1996)

 

[otto]

This case relates to a Dutch man, born in the Netherlands, and raised in Aruba. He is a suspect in the disappearance of a woman in Aruba, and the murder of a woman in Peru. Almost all the information related to this suspect has originally been in Dutch, Papiamento, and Spanish. I'm sorry you find this international multi-language investigation frustrating, but many who are fluent in several languages frequently provide translations of selected information. If you would like specific information translated (not an entire hour long program), I think many are happy to help.

Additionally, I think much can be learned by watching the program (without sound) in terms of understanding the process of the sting, and the interactions between Joran and others.

 

[annalia]

This case relates to a Dutch man, born in the Netherlands, and raised in Aruba. He is a suspect in the disappearance of a woman in Aruba, and the murder of a woman in Peru. Almost all the information related to this suspect has originally been in Dutch, Papiamento, and Spanish. I'm sorry you find this international multi-language investigation frustrating, but many who are fluent in several languages frequently provide translations of selected information. If you would like specific information translated (not an entire hour long program), I think many are happy to help.

Additionally, I think much can be learned by watching the program (without sound) in terms of understanding the process of the sting, and the interactions between Joran and others.

If I may ask, do you speak Dutch?

 

[LadyL]

there's a translation thread here in this forum

can the videos be posted there & maybe someone will be willing to help?

 

[LadyL]

r u thinking of the one where you draw your hand across your neck? (as if slitting your throat with your hand?)

ETA: wouldn't that be fitting in this case?

dear god no
that would be a death threat & I can't imagine his lawyer wanting to represent him after that

 

[Salem]

I think LadyL's suggestion is a good one. I'll move the video post to the translation thread and see if anyone will translate at least some parts of it.

In the meantime, please do not bicker. I do not have time to hang out and babysit. If you don't like someone's post - move past it. You do NOT have to respond and if you respond in an ugly manner, it will be YOU that gets in trouble.

If a post is within TOS - I will not remove it. If it does not help you in your analysis of this case or your search for answers - then just move past it. However, if a post violates TOS (attacks, baits or disparages an innocent person) please alert it and one of the mods will review it. I am busy today - so it may take me a bit to get here, but I will see the alert and I will check it out.

WS appreciates all your hard work on this case. We all want justice for Stephany and for Natalee (even though this thread is not about Natalee except where the MO may overlap).

Thanks Guys!

Salem

 

[LadyL]

Those pictures floated around a few years ago. That man is not Paulus, although some people thought there was a resemblance.

we don't know that for sure

I had read that the man had on the same color clothes as Paulus did that night, which of course added fuel to the speculation

anyway, I've never been able to discern whether it was or was not him

 

[LadyL]

There is no evidence that Natalee and Paulus were at the casino at the same time. Natalee had a long nap in the afternoon, got ready in the evening, I think she had something to eat with friends, and then they went to the casino. That's what I remember. Paulus was at home looking after the two younger children by the time Natalee arrived at the casino.

[bbm]

according to him in his police statement

is there another source that confirms his statement? aside from his son of course

 

[LadyL]

If he used a date rape drug, she would have been out cold, at which time he could have raped, robbed, and been on a plane back to Aruba without murdering her. If he drugged her, there wouldn't have been a struggle.

[bbm]

not necessarily true about being 'out cold'
perhaps it depends on the dose or something ...

(and I know this from two personal experiences)

however, I agree that she wouldn't have been able to struggle much if at all

 

[LadyL]

Is the theory that he drugged her, took off her pants, then she kind of woke up, a fight broke out, and he murdered her? If she had evidence under her nails (per her father's statements), then she definitely put up good fight. Would a groggy person, half out of it on rohypnol, be able to scratch an attacker?

[bbm]

I don't think so ...

 

[LadyL]

Joran had girlfriends from about the time he was 16. I don't see him having any reason to force sex on a woman. It doesn't appear that he forced sex on Stephany, as there was no evidence of sexual contact. From all reports, he was a bit of a playboy on the beach with tourists in Aruba (pretending to be a tourist) until Natalee's disappearance.

The date rape/gang rape/accidental death theory is what Beth first believed. Does she still believe that today? Knowing that a woman was murdered, most likely by Joran, on the 5th anniversary of her daughter's disappearance ... and learning that it was an unexpected, sudden, violent, attack ... does she still believe that Natalee was given a date rape, raped, and that she had seizures before she disappeared?

here's where I disagree ...

the reason for him to possibly drug & rape women would have nothing to do with him being successful at having girlfriends from the age of 16

if he's sick in the head, as he claims, he will engage in abhorrent criminal activities all the while maintaining a false front of normalcy with his family and girlfriend

beyond that, I believe Joran and his friends were using date-rape drugs and I believe that's what happened to Natalee

anyway, rapists don't need a reason - it's not like one has to be ugly, poor, and socially awkward to be a rapist

 

[suzihawk]

The only missing woman connected with Joran is Natalee. Joran cannot be connected with two women missing in Bogota because he was only in Bogota for changing planes, and did not leave the airport. This did not prevent NG from stating on a daily basis that Joran was a suspect in two missing women in Bogota. It cannot be true. NG also reported that Joran was being investigated for two missing women in Thailand, but there is nothing in media reports from Thailand to confirm this. NG is the only person reporting that Joran is also being investigated in the disappearance of 4 additional women.

The National Enquirer has also picked up the story. I'm sure they didn't base their sources solely on Nancy Grace.

Here my list of what I want to know:

1. Who filmed the documentary?

2. Who directed it and produced it?

3. Was it broadcast or shown elsewhere, other than on YouTube?

4. Is there a reliable English translation, and how might we determine the translation's reliability? (I for one can't tolerate the internet translations; I want a thinking human's version, and one that isn't either a Joran supporter or a Joran basher.)

5. Who set up the sting, and who were the intended victims of the sting (i.e., the people who were suspected of criminal bahavior)?

6. Are there reliable print sources for this material? That is, have mainstream media outlets investigated, reported and written about the material in the YouTube video?

That's for starters.

And for other posters, am I hallucinating? Didn't Joran talk about human trafficking in one of the "undercover video sessions"? I know there are other sources who have made this claim about Joran. We can more profitably collect these to refer to later.

Finally, I understand that prostitution is legal in the Netherlands. However, recruiting women to go there to "dance" and then putting them in brothels because they don't have the money or contacts to go home or find a place to live is against international law against human trafficking. Or so I understand. Once we get this story straight, we will see.

Good questions.

It wasn't undercover, but JVS outright told Greta Van Susteran on 11/24/08 that he sold Natalee for cash. He further implicated his father and other Aruban officials regarding human trafficking via an audio chip he provided that may or may not have been his father's voice.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n0yGnddDZE&feature=related[/ame]

r u thinking of the one where you draw your hand across your neck? (as if slitting your throat with your hand?)

ETA: wouldn't that be fitting in this case?

dear god no
that would be a death threat & I can't imagine his lawyer wanting to represent him after that

Maybe he crossed his fingers indicating he wasn't telling the truth?

 

[suzihawk]

here's where I disagree ...

the reason for him to possibly drug & rape women would have nothing to do with him being successful at having girlfriends from the age of 16

if he's sick in the head, as he claims, he will engage in abhorrent criminal activities all the while maintaining a false front of normalcy with his family and girlfriend

beyond that, I believe Joran and his friends were using date-rape drugs and I believe that's what happened to Natalee

anyway, rapists don't need a reason - it's not like one has to be ugly, poor, and socially awkward to be a rapist

Exactly! As I said before, rape rarely has anything to do with the sex act itself or sexual satisfaction, but rather anger and control issues.

I don't have the exact quote at hand so I'm paraphrasing here, but I remember him saying something to the effect of, "we've done this ten (or twenty) times before and nothing has happened". I believe he was referring to using date rape drugs when he said that.

 

[LadyL]

Chain smoking and sleeping are what I remember reading in the news at the time of arrest. If the taxi driver has added taking out and putting away a computer, okay.

the laptop being opened & closed was in very early reports

 

[suzihawk]

why do you say that?

I've seen the video but don't quite remember all the details

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK_l3C0dSrk&has_verified=1[/ame]

 

[otto]

This is the same that I think of Joran. Everybody is trying to paint him as this human trafficking criminal that goes around the world killing woman, and this is far from reality.

In reality he is just a self entitled brat with a bad temper that thinks the world owes him. He didn't plan to kill Nattalie or Stephany, hell this kid probably couldn't plan past what his next meal would be.

As far as the human trafficing, that is just a complete joke. This kid is just a wanna be gangster that had fantasies about pimping hoes, he needs to stop listening to so much rap music. He is just like the young men you see his age that run around and claim to be associated with a gang or with the mob. If it wasn't for Pieter de Vries sting providing what he thought to be opportunity for him to start his pimping business, it would have just remained more of his big talk.

Joran is just immoral with a bad temper that killed 2 women. He is not some globe trotting killer of women. Nor is he a human trafficker moving women from Thailand to the Netherlands.

I think that's exactly who he is - a rotten person with a bad temper and no self-control. I don't think he's much more than an average person who doesn't think about the consequences of his actions, or plan for the future. He thinks he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and he doesn't care about the impact his actions have on others. He is right where he should be, and if he is released he will be a danger to all those around.

 

[asiabrasil]

why do you say that?

I've seen the video but don't quite remember all the details

Based on having spent many months total in Bangkok. Their clothing, mannerisms, English skills, and the fact that within a 1/2 mile radius of the Landmark hotel there are well over 5000 bar girls working on any given night, all of whom are available easily and instantly for a trip to a hotel room. I have never once seen a "normal" Thai woman dress provocatively day or night. They are extremely conservative.