GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Was Stephany lured to Joran's room? I'm not seeing that in the video of them entering the hotel. He doesn't appear to be doing anything to lure her. Maybe they were going to do some online gambling, Joran lost his temper, elbowed her, and murdered her.

The assumption that Joran somehow tricked Stephany to go to the hotel with him ... where does that come from?

Lured or invited, it doesn't really matter. He obviously wanted her in his room for some reason, and the most likely reason(by far) IMO, was sex. Unless you are suggesting it was her idea to go there....

The assumption that Joran lured/invited her to his room under false pretenses is just that - an assumption. I have a real hard time believing he just invited her up expecting nothing more than a friendly game of online poker or any other innocent motive. Until we see additional evidence, I'll stick with the most likely IMO scenario.
 
Lured or invited, it doesn't really matter. He obviously wanted her in his room for some reason, and the most likely reason(by far) IMO, was sex. Unless you are suggesting it was her idea to go there....

The assumption that Joran lured/invited her to his room under false pretenses is just that - an assumption. I have a real hard time believing he just invited her up expecting nothing more than a friendly game of online poker or any other innocent motive. Until we see additional evidence, I'll stick with the most likely IMO scenario.

It possible that she wanted to be in his room. She had had a disagreement with her father. Maybe she was avoiding going home. We cannot conclude that Joran wanted Stephany in his room and tricked, coerced, or lured her there. She went quite willingly, walking behind him. She could have turned around any time.
 
Knock off the bickering or I will be recommending vacation time for a few posters.

Thanks,

Salem
 
Then who was giving Joran the money to use to go drinking and to the casinos? By accounts back then Joran wasn't working so the money came from his parents. If Joran later gave his father some money from winnings, that doesn't mean his parents weren't still bankrolling him.

So, going to a casino in Aruba is 'a little like' going to church in Iowa?
One might include going to brothels in Holland and Thailand? Legal with
Souls left unharmed if not better off? Intention is what matters and that
is private and no one's business, and the State approves in each case.
:dance:

The issue of the parents banlkrolling/financing/giving cash to/giving an
allowance - whatever you wish to call it - for casino training for Joran,
is a proven factoid. Read past thread posts (many of them).

Some parents just let it go at piano and mambo lessons?

Now, it occurs to me to ask: how are most kids raised on Aruba?
How was it or is Joran typical or a-typical? Why is Joran in prison
and most of the rest of his generation raised at Aruba aren't?
How is Joran being in prison a BIG MISTAKE? :waitasec: Whose mistake?
 
I have been thinking since I first heard about this case when Joran says Stephany hit him upside his head, that Stephany doesn't look like a mean girl type to me and also get that feeling she wasn't from what her friends and family have said about her. Anyway I'm thinking "if" the story Joran told about her reading something about him is if it wasn't kinda like a little thump playfully that she did. Joran being the hot headed person he is blew a gasget and poor Stephany didn't even mean anything by it but also she had no idea that Joran would react that way towards her. It just bothers me that she probably meant no harm by it if she thmped him and this senseless, brutal beating that led to her death because Joran is so..I don't know what word to use here, compulsive, arrogant, out of control he just takes things too far and goes over the edge. Like can't take a joke or IDK, just does not make sense. I can't get the words out I'm trying to get across.

I think you may be on to something here. Minimal stimulus. Maximum response from Joran. He said: "I didnt mean to do it". (Does he ever
MEAN to DO, anything?
 
The problem with the drug and rape scenario is that there is no evidence of either. Stephany did not have date rape drugs in her system, there was no evidence of sexual assault. At no time, throughout his life, has Joran been factually connected with date rape drugs and sexual assault. Joran is not a pimp, and there is no factual evidence connecting him with pimping. According to Beth, someone at the casino said that Joran preyed on young women.

I think it's important to separate what we know to be true from what Joran claims and what Beth feared.

Ok, so in this video with Joran and his chums (Thailand) one girl asks:
'how long do we have to dance' ... Answer: 'oh 6-8-10 hours a day', and
the men laugh, Joran laughs, the girls laugh disagreeably but one calls
out (hi voice) "OH! NO WAY!"..........

What is that episode all about? I dont see the people politely seated
reading The Psalms. This is no church group, no tea party on the lawn.

Why is Joran there in this video at all? Is he there doing research
for his Masters in *Third World Economics hopinh for an appointment
to the Aruban Dept of Commerce?

Innocence is, as Innocense does!

:innocent:
 
Joran said that he and Natalee were fooling around. Joran is a liar. I don't think we should rely on anything he said. Joran said he removed Stphany's pants after he murdered her. Joran said that statement was coerced.

Based on evidence, and 5 years under the magnifying glass, there's no reason to believe Joran used date rape drugs or raped women.

If we concede there is no evidence at all that Joran gave drugs or
raped any woman, can we also concede he lived in a dangerous
environment where those things do happen (did happen),
and he now has confessed to murdering Stephany Flores Ramirez?
 
Anita and Joran went to Florida to look at a college.

There is no evidence that Joran made *advertiser censored* movies. It was a rumor, like so many others. According to Nancy Grace, Joran murdered two women in Bogota even though he did not leave the airport. Rumor without fact or evidence.

I agree. Some inflammers in the socalled 'news media' are plain mashuganah when it comes to accurate reporting, and should be fired
imho, but beyond the hypersupercilious factless media there also some
plain hard facts and missing woman, an extortion and other events, all
of which are connected to Joran.

Why did Stephany Flores have to die at all?

Are you going to say Joran was driven to murder by the media?
 
Joran wasn't pimping in Thailand.

Just hiering poor girls to dance for 6-10 hours per day in Holland for
slave wages. That much is on the video clear as day for anyone to
hear and see, in any language.

Why does Joran like messing around in gutters? Cant he finish a
real education and get a real job? His mother did. A guy with the
talents Joran has should be the founder and CEO-CIO of a corporation
by now - instead he's a confessed murderer languishing in jail. Is it
all a mistake? Whose mistake?

:banghead:
 
Joran was not breaking any laws in Thailand. Maybe it's not nice for men to approach women and ask them if they want to dance for 10 hours in a club in the Netherlands, but it's certainly not illegal. It's also not illegal for women to be prostitutes in the Netherlands. What could Thai officials charge him with?

Vagrancy, pandering, running stop signs, cross walk violations,
conpspiracy, conspiracy to defraud, immigration violations, conspiracy to
commit immigration violations, delinquency of a minor, liquor law violations,
corrupting the public morals .........and poor taste........ the list is endless. The investigation has just began.
 
Joran wasn't a pimp. He offered adult women a legal job in another country. None of the women accepted the job, none of them liked the terms of the job or the wage.

Prostitution in the Netherlands is a perfectly legitimate profession. Prostitutes don't sell their souls. They are regularly health checked, pay taxes, and have normal lives like everyone else. What Joran did was neither illegal nor immoral in Thailand or the Netherlands.

That is the whole point. Only Joran knows what Joran DID. And
except for one confession Joran isn't talking beyond gibberish and
raising himself a stiffer sentence in Peru. That by any accounting is
shere brilliance? Some classify it as psychopathic, cross-culturally.
But, Joran is now in prison on a murder charge having confessed
to murder with aggravation, fled the scene, etc etc etc. Joran has
an extortion charge waiting for him in America. It seems to me the
three drips of technical exemption don't balance the rest of the
flood of crime which would have Joran in jail everywhere on Earth,
even in Holland and in the Thailand! Yes? What am I missing that
gets Joran out of jail anywhere? There are a few universal moral
values all cultures agree on. What excuses Joran of his cruelty if
only to himself? One basic tenent of sanity is personal survival.
Where and why did Joran go wrong, as measured by self-survival
as distinct from philosophical legalism any place on Earth?
 
BBM

Some of them have never been seen again....which is exactly why he's being investigated now....Never say 'No' to Joran!!!

MOO

Absolutely nothing to substantiate that. Arjan Wezel approached Joran with this scheme. Joran smelled a rat (or a weasel) and played along. These girls were not prostitutes, they were in on this sting.

If you are so sure they are missing, give some credible details.
 
Absolutely nothing to substantiate that. Arjan Wezel approached Joran with this scheme. Joran smelled a rat (or a weasel) and played along. These girls were not prostitutes, they were in on this sting.

If you are so sure they are missing, give some credible details.

My boldings,

Where has that been confirmed please, has there been any official confirmation with regards to the bolding?
 
My boldings,

Where has that been confirmed please, has there been any official confirmation with regards to the bolding?

That came straight from Julia Renfro. Which means it's not reliable info.
 
If we concede there is no evidence at all that Joran gave drugs or
raped any woman, can we also concede he lived in a dangerous
environment where those things do happen (did happen),
and he now has confessed to murdering Stephany Flores Ramirez?

I'm not sure what you mean. Generally speaking, drugs and rape happens everywhere. Joran, at the age of 17, was accused of raping and drugging Natalee when he lived with his parents and attended a private school. I don't think that qualifies as a dangerous environment. Living in Arnhem attending a business college is also not considered a dangerous environment. In Thailand, Joran attended an affiliate college and owned a coffee shop. That too does not represent a dangerous environment. The casino in Lima would not be considered a dangerous environment.

His life has been under a microscope for the last 5 years, with numerous agencies (Dutch police, Aruban police, FBI, media, sting operations) attempting to gather evidence of any kind against him. One would expect that at least one of those agencies would have been successful if he had drugged and raped women or habitually purchased ghb.

He has confessed to murdering Stephany, and all evidence points to him as the murderer. Evidence in that murder indicates no use of ghb, no sexual assault, use of unprovoked extreme violence, and a calm demeanor after the murder.
 
I agree. Some inflammers in the socalled 'news media' are plain mashuganah when it comes to accurate reporting, and should be fired
imho, but beyond the hypersupercilious factless media there also some
plain hard facts and missing woman, an extortion and other events, all
of which are connected to Joran.

Why did Stephany Flores have to die at all?

Are you going to say Joran was driven to murder by the media?

The only missing woman connected with Joran is Natalee. Joran cannot be connected with two women missing in Bogota because he was only in Bogota for changing planes, and did not leave the airport. This did not prevent NG from stating on a daily basis that Joran was a suspect in two missing women in Bogota. It cannot be true. NG also reported that Joran was being investigated for two missing women in Thailand, but there is nothing in media reports from Thailand to confirm this. NG is the only person reporting that Joran is also being investigated in the disappearance of 4 additional women.
 
Just hiering poor girls to dance for 6-10 hours per day in Holland for
slave wages. That much is on the video clear as day for anyone to
hear and see, in any language.

Why does Joran like messing around in gutters? Cant he finish a
real education and get a real job? His mother did. A guy with the
talents Joran has should be the founder and CEO-CIO of a corporation
by now - instead he's a confessed murderer languishing in jail. Is it
all a mistake? Whose mistake?

:banghead:

How much money did Joran offer?
 
"... in a TV interview ... [the driver] Aparcana said van der Sloot appeared 'worried, because he kept smoking cigarettes.'

'He didn't have a cell phone but he had a laptop that he would take out, handle and then put back'."

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/sto...ce-murder-charges/Yt3ZfOWrfkamSciSkjhM8g.cspx

June 3

"Joran droeg een korte broek, witte sportschoenen en had twee koffers bij zich. De broers zeiden dat ze niet met hem hebben gepraat omdat hij de taal niet sprak. Wel rookte hij de ene sigaret na de andere. Hij zou vrij snel in slaap zijn gevallen. "

"Joran was wearing shorts, white shoes and he had 2 suitcases. The brothers said they did not talk to him because he did not speak the language. He smoked one cigarette after the other, and soon fell asleep."

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6850174/__Politie__Joran_nog_in_Arica__.html?p=1,1
 
Here my list of what I want to know:

1. Who filmed the documentary?

2. Who directed it and produced it?

3. Was it broadcast or shown elsewhere, other than on YouTube?

4. Is there a reliable English translation, and how might we determine the translation's reliability? (I for one can't tolerate the internet translations; I want a thinking human's version, and one that isn't either a Joran supporter or a Joran basher.)

5. Who set up the sting, and who were the intended victims of the sting (i.e., the people who were suspected of criminal bahavior)?

6. Are there reliable print sources for this material? That is, have mainstream media outlets investigated, reported and written about the material in the YouTube video?

That's for starters.

And for other posters, am I hallucinating? Didn't Joran talk about human trafficking in one of the "undercover video sessions"? I know there are other sources who have made this claim about Joran. We can more profitably collect these to refer to later.

Finally, I understand that prostitution is legal in the Netherlands. However, recruiting women to go there to "dance" and then putting them in brothels because they don't have the money or contacts to go home or find a place to live is against international law against human trafficking. Or so I understand. Once we get this story straight, we will see.
 
Here my list of what I want to know:

1. Who filmed the documentary?

2. Who directed it and produced it?

3. Was it broadcast or shown elsewhere, other than on YouTube?

4. Is there a reliable English translation, and how might we determine the translation's reliability? (I for one can't tolerate the internet translations; I want a thinking human's version, and one that isn't either a Joran supporter or a Joran basher.)

5. Who set up the sting, and who were the intended victims of the sting (i.e., the people who were suspected of criminal bahavior)?

6. Are there reliable print sources for this material? That is, have mainstream media outlets investigated, reported and written about the material in the YouTube video?

That's for starters.

And for other posters, am I hallucinating? Didn't Joran talk about human trafficking in one of the "undercover video sessions"? I know there are other sources who have made this claim about Joran. We can more profitably collect these to refer to later.

Finally, I understand that prostitution is legal in the Netherlands. However, recruiting women to go there to "dance" and then putting them in brothels because they don't have the money or contacts to go home or find a place to live is against international law against human trafficking. Or so I understand. Once we get this story straight, we will see.

I don't think an understanding of Dutch is necessary to know the filming, production, and broadcast of the Pieter de Vries show. That information is widely available by searching Pieter de Vries on the internet. Additionally, various talking heads have discussed the production, and Pieter de Vries.

I don't know of any English translation of the program. Automatic internet translations are confusing, and notoriously misleading. The Thais requested a transcript of the program. I don't know if that was produced, or what language it would have been.

It's been some time since I watched the documentary, but it's my understanding that Joran mentioned to an acquaintance that they could make some quick money bringing Thai women to the Netherlands for prostitution. As they drive and discuss the idea, you can see prostitutes in the background (they're in the windows of the buildings). The idea was that women would be told they would be dancing, but Joran thought that once they were in the country, there would be little they could do if they were forced into prostitution. Joran was going to take the women to the Dutch embassy in Thailand and help them apply for a 3 month visa.

Personally, I think that is unrealistic, as prostitution in the Netherlands is out in the open, not a hidden crime. Also, I think that if Joran went to the embassy trying to get visas for Thai women, the embassy would have been suspicious ... if only because of Joran's status as a suspect in Natalee's disappearance.

The acquaintance contacted Pieter de Vries, and the sting operation was hatched. In the video, you can see Pieter and the acquaintance communicating with Joran via computer chat. Joran eventually becomes suspicious of the acquaintance, so he meets Joran in Thailand and they kind of push Joran into producing a couple of women (they want to wrap up the sting). When the women show up at the hotel, they say they need to finish their studies, which is a surprise to Joran. They make it clear that the job and the money does not interest them. Joran claims he can find more women. de Vries eventually takes over communicating with Joran via chat, and tells Joran that he's been caught in a sting. Joran thanks him for the money.

It's my opinion that without the encouragement of the acquaintance and de Vries, and financing from de Vries, Joran's venture would have quickly become nothing more than a passing thought. He did not have any finances to back the idea, and everyone else in documentary was part of the sting operation.

His plan was immoral, but it amounted to nothing for many reasons.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
83
Guests online
2,377
Total visitors
2,460

Forum statistics

Threads
599,735
Messages
18,098,868
Members
230,917
Latest member
CP95
Back
Top