GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22

[asiabrasil]

Joran had girlfriends from about the time he was 16. I don't see him having any reason to force sex on a woman. It doesn't appear that he forced sex on Stephany, as there was no evidence of sexual contact. From all reports, he was a bit of a playboy on the beach with tourists in Aruba (pretending to be a tourist) until Natalee's disappearance.

snipped

None of us know why he took her to his room. Perhaps we never will. For now, all we can do is speculate. It seems as if you have completely discounted any possibility that sex was part or all of the reason. You may be right, but I don't think we can eliminate any possibility. Why do you think he took her there? I love hearing new theories.

 

[otto]

snipped

None of us know why he took her to his room. Perhaps we never will. For now, all we can do is speculate. It seems as if you have completely discounted any possibility that sex was part or all of the reason. You may be right, but I don't think we can eliminate any possibility. Why do you think he took her there? I love hearing new theories.

There's no evidence that there was any sexual activity, so I do discount sex as a reason for Stephany going to Joran's room. I have no idea why Stephany went to Joran's room ... but I do know that she went there quite willingly. Perhaps he borrowed money and was going to repay it. Perhaps they wanted to do some online gambling, as Joran suggested.

 

[nosysw]

Joran wasn't a pimp. He offered adult women a legal job in another country. None of the women accepted the job, none of them liked the terms of the job or the wage.

Prostitution in the Netherlands is a perfectly legitimate profession. Prostitutes don't sell their souls. They are regularly health checked, pay taxes, and have normal lives like everyone else. What Joran did was neither illegal nor immoral in Thailand or the Netherlands.

from dictionary.reference.com:

pimp   /pɪmp/ Show Spelled[pimp] Show IPA
–noun
1. a person, esp. a man, who solicits customers for a prostitute or a brothel, usually in return for a share of the earnings; pander; procurer.
2. a despicable person.

doesn't say that the activity has to be illegal for the perpetrator of it to be a pimp. And saying prostitutes don't sell their souls because they are health checked, pay taxes and have normal lives? Well, whether they do or don't sell their souls would be very subjective which is why I said MOO but I would venture to say many, many former prostitutes would say they did. And then there's the whole Christian morality take on it (i.e. just because it's legal doesn't make it moral), but this isn't the place for that here, for sure.

 

[asiabrasil]

There's no evidence that there was any sexual activity, so I do discount sex as a reason for Stephany going to Joran's room. I have no idea why Stephany went to Joran's room ... but I do know that she went there quite willingly. Perhaps he borrowed money and was going to repay it. Perhaps they wanted to do some online gambling, as Joran suggested.

We are talking about 2 different things here. I'm also quite sure that Stephany did not go to the room for sex. She was having her period. That certainly does not mean that Joran did not use a ruse to get her to go with him, while instead planning a sexual encounter. In the end, it's not surprising there was no actual sexual contact as she was menstruating. That alone could also have made him snap.

 

[otto]

from dictionary.reference.com:

pimp   /pɪmp/ Show Spelled[pimp] Show IPA
–noun
1. a person, esp. a man, who solicits customers for a prostitute or a brothel, usually in return for a share of the earnings; pander; procurer.
2. a despicable person.

doesn't say that the activity has to be illegal for the perpetrator of it to be a pimp. And saying prostitutes don't sell their souls because they are health checked, pay taxes and have normal lives? Well, whether they do or don't sell their souls would be very subjective which is why I said MOO but I would venture to say many, many former prostitutes would say they did. And then there's the whole Christian morality take on it (i.e. just because it's legal doesn't make it moral), but this isn't the place for that here, for sure.

Joran was not soliciting customers for a prostitute or brothel. He was offering a fake job to women that were not interested in the job.

 

[otto]

We are talking about 2 different things here. I'm also quite sure that Stephany did not go to the room for sex. She was having her period. That certainly does not mean that Joran did not use a ruse to get her to go with him, while instead planning a sexual encounter. In the end, it's not surprising there was no actual sexual contact as she was menstruating. That alone could also have made him snap.

Joran did not take Stephany to the room, she drove to his hotel, parked her vehicle, and walked into the hotel on her own. We don't know why he invited her to his room, and we don't know why she accepted the invitation. I suspect that he wanted to rob her, since he did rob her. The sex angle makes it seem so much more lurid, but there's nothing to support the sex angle.

 

[FLNY]

Joran wasn't a pimp. He offered adult women a legal job in another country. None of the women accepted the job, none of them liked the terms of the job or the wage.

Prostitution in the Netherlands is a perfectly legitimate profession. Prostitutes don't sell their souls. They are regularly health checked, pay taxes, and have normal lives like everyone else. What Joran did was neither illegal nor immoral in Thailand or the Netherlands.

BBM

Some of them have never been seen again....which is exactly why he's being investigated now....Never say 'No' to Joran!!!

MOO

 

[FLNY]

There's no evidence that there was any sexual activity, so I do discount sex as a reason for Stephany going to Joran's room. I have no idea why Stephany went to Joran's room ... but I do know that she went there quite willingly. Perhaps he borrowed money and was going to repay it. Perhaps they wanted to do some online gambling, as Joran suggested.

BBM

Consider this....there is no evidence of sexual activity because he beat her to death when she resisted!! Of course, only a theory...but one that can't be discounted.

MOO

 

[asiabrasil]

Joran did not take Stephany to the room, she drove to his hotel, parked her vehicle, and walked into the hotel on her own. We don't know why he invited her to his room, and we don't know why she accepted the invitation. I suspect that he wanted to rob her, since he did rob her. The sex angle makes it seem so much more lurid, but there's nothing to support the sex angle.

Always interesting to hear other perceptions. That's why I'm here. Common sense supports the sex angle IMO. Lurid or not, it is common for young men to lure women to their own hotel room with the intention of sexual activity. I would venture it is quite uncommon for a guy to lure a woman to their room to rob them. How did he expect to get away with that?

 

[dgfred]

Always interesting to hear other perceptions. That's why I'm here. Common sense supports the sex angle IMO. Lurid or not, it is common for young men to lure women to their own hotel room with the intention of sexual activity. I would venture it is quite uncommon for a guy to lure a woman to their room to rob them. How did he expect to get away with that?

May have been both scenarios :waitasec: . How did he expect to get away with unwanted sex, robbery or murder... I don't think he really thought about the aftermath considering his past behaviors.

 

[asiabrasil]

May have been both scenarios :waitasec: . How did he expect to get away with unwanted sex, robbery or murder... I don't think he really thought about the aftermath considering his past behaviors.

He could have either expected to 'charm' her into it once they were alone, or drug her. Not much risk there... Robbery and murder = very high risk.

 

[annalia]

It would be trafficking if he lied about the job in dancing and "forced" them to work prostitution. Sex trafficking is not an option for an occupation.....sort of like extortion/embezzlement don't you think?

I think there would be more believability in the fact that Joran just went bezerk on Natalee now that the homicide of Stephany has come to light. No drugs needed, except his liking of amphetamines and the help they added by him being so jacked.

Yes it would fall under human trafficking. Prostitution may be legal but trafficking women isn't.

 

[porkchop]

We are talking about 2 different things here. I'm also quite sure that Stephany did not go to the room for sex. She was having her period. That certainly does not mean that Joran did not use a ruse to get her to go with him, while instead planning a sexual encounter. In the end, it's not surprising there was no actual sexual contact as she was menstruating. That alone could also have made him snap.

If she was having her period that is what led to him being set off. She probably agreed to go back to his room with him to talk and fool around a little bit.
I doubt he had any plan to kill or rob her. He was expecting sex and when she said no because of her period after a make out session he probably said something nasty to her, she slapped him and then he beat her to death.

As far as him being involved in some type of sex trafficking ring I think that is far-fetched. Like it was said before in this thread I think that was a fantasy of his, that and being an organized crime figure.

 

[jtsetj]

IMO....
she went to hotel with YVD on the assumption that either he was going to pay her any money he owed her, or to play poker online. I dont believe Stephany would have gone with him for sex as she was having her period. I know I never wanted sex during my period. My last one was 20 years ago PTL. Cant believe this young lady would want to do so also. Just MO...

I know other ladies do it all the time on their period.
But all the women I know never do. I took a poll, but alas have no link

 

[dgfred]

He could have either expected to 'charm' her into it once they were alone, or drug her. Not much risk there... Robbery and murder = very high risk.

Nothing really to argue about, we will probably never know what actually caused the murder... Joran lies and SF is dead regardless of his so-called 'reason'.

 

[otto]

Always interesting to hear other perceptions. That's why I'm here. Common sense supports the sex angle IMO. Lurid or not, it is common for young men to lure women to their own hotel room with the intention of sexual activity. I would venture it is quite uncommon for a guy to lure a woman to their room to rob them. How did he expect to get away with that?

Was Stephany lured to Joran's room? I'm not seeing that in the video of them entering the hotel. He doesn't appear to be doing anything to lure her. Maybe they were going to do some online gambling, Joran lost his temper, elbowed her, and murdered her.

The assumption that Joran somehow tricked Stephany to go to the hotel with him ... where does that come from?

 

[otto]

May have been both scenarios :waitasec: . How did he expect to get away with unwanted sex, robbery or murder... I don't think he really thought about the aftermath considering his past behaviors.

I doubt there was a plan to murder her. I think they were at the hotel together, he lost his temper, and murdered her ... no advance plan.

 

[suzihawk]

Wow... I missed a lot today.

I know that Paulus and Natalee were not at the casino at the same time. Paulus had already left when Natalee arrived. The alternative would mean that Natalee was in the casino from 4 until 10:30, and then at the bar for another 2 hours ... having drinks for 6 - 8 hours ... no dinner break. That is not what friends said.

Do you have a link to any of the Mountainbrook students' statements? As I recall, there was much complaining that the Mountainbrook students were told not to speak to authorities re" the investigation, including the FBI.

The problem with the drug and rape scenario is that there is no evidence of either. Stephany did not have date rape drugs in her system, there was no evidence of sexual assault. At no time, throughout his life, has Joran been factually connected with date rape drugs and sexual assault. Joran is not a pimp, and there is no factual evidence connecting him with pimping. According to Beth, someone at the casino said that Joran preyed on young women.

I think it's important to separate what we know to be true from what Joran claims and what Beth feared.

It was the clerk at the Holiday Inn that told Beth (on the first day that she arrived in Aruba) that Joran preyed on young female tourists. I beieve this was confirmed by the Aruban 'investigators'.

If Stephany ingested ghb, why wasn't it found in her system during autopsy?

Stephany's body wasn't discovered for 3+ days. According to the following link, GHB stays in the system for 1-2 days. It's entirely possible that IF she had GHB in her sytem, it was gone by the time her body was discovered and the autopsy was performed.

GHB (G, Grievous Bodily Harm, Goob, Liquid Ecstasy, Liquid X), 1-2 days


http://www.ohsinc.com/how_long_do_drugs_stay_in_your_system.htm

Joran wasn't a pimp. He offered adult women a legal job in another country. None of the women accepted the job, none of them liked the terms of the job or the wage.

Prostitution in the Netherlands is a perfectly legitimate profession. Prostitutes don't sell their souls. They are regularly health checked, pay taxes, and have normal lives like everyone else. What Joran did was neither illegal nor immoral in Thailand or the Netherlands.

What was his purpose in offering these young women 'jobs' in another country and, more importantly, what did HE get out of it? I'm pretty sure he wasn't doing missionary work and trying to help these poor girls out of the kindness of his heart - or was this just part of his 'fantasizing'? How exactly do you know that none of the young women accepted the 'jobs' he was offering - do you have a link?

Joran did not force anyone to work as a prostitute. He offered women in Thailand a job. What might have happened after the women arrived in the Netherlands is completely up for speculation ... but it didn't happen, so no laws were broken.

I agree with what may have happened to Natalee. Given that Joran violently attacked Stephany, no drugs, no sexual assault, I suspect the same thing happened before.

Again, you don't know this. Neither do I. But given his penchant for thinking he was some big wheeler dealer, I certainly know which way I lean as far as my opinion of what his true motives were in offering 'jobs' to these young girls.

Nothing really to argue about, we will probably never know what actually caused the murder... Joran lies and SF is dead regardless of his so-called 'reason'.

Agreed!! Of course the sleuth in my would like to know why she went to his room and his motives for getting her to go in the first place. I can't dismiss the reports that he was complaining about not being successful in picking up women in Peru. But the bottom line is that she went to HIS room and ended up being beaten to death.

 

[otto]

Wow... I missed a lot today.

Do you have a link to any of the Mountainbrook students' statements? As I recall, there was much complaining that the Mountainbrook students were told not to speak to authorities re" the investigation, including the FBI.

It was the clerk at the Holiday Inn that told Beth (on the first day that she arrived in Aruba) that Joran preyed on young female tourists. I beieve this was confirmed by the Aruban 'investigators'.
Stephany's body wasn't discovered for 3+ days. According to the following link, GHB stays in the system for 1-2 days. It's entirely possible that IF she had GHB in her sytem, it was gone by the time her body was discovered and the autopsy was performed.

GHB (G, Grievous Bodily Harm, Goob, Liquid Ecstasy, Liquid X), 1-2 days


http://www.ohsinc.com/how_long_do_drugs_stay_in_your_system.htm

What was his purpose in offering these young women 'jobs' in another country and, more importantly, what did HE get out of it? I'm pretty sure he wasn't doing missionary work and trying to help these poor girls out of the kindness of his heart - or was this just part of his 'fantasizing'? How exactly do you know that none of the young women accepted the 'jobs' he was offering - do you have a link?

Again, you don't know this. Neither do I. But given his penchant for thinking he was some big wheeler dealer, I certainly know which way I lean as far as my opinion of what his true motives were in offering 'jobs' to these young girls.

Agreed!! Of course the sleuth in my would like to know why she went to his room and his motives for getting her to go in the first place. I can't dismiss the reports that he was complaining about not being successful in picking up women in Peru. But the bottom line is that she went to HIS room and ended up being beaten to death.

GHB stays in a living body for a limited amount of time, but GHB doesn't disappear at the time of death. Whatever is in the blood at the time of death stays in the blood, and is not metabolized. Amphetamines don't stay in the body for days either, but they do if the person is dead.

IMO - It's clear from the video that the women turned down the job offer. They are not "young girls". They are adults.

 

[asiabrasil]

Of course the sleuth in my would like to know why she went to his room and his motives for getting her to go in the first place. I can't dismiss the reports that he was complaining about not being successful in picking up women in Peru. But the bottom line is that she went to HIS room and ended up being beaten to death.

snipped

Neither can I, and I believe that is a huge clue about his intentions.