GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22

[otto]

Here's an excerpt re: PVDS being at the casino the night that Natalee "disappeared". It's from PVDS's own statement dated 6/18/05 from the following site:

http://www.hollowaycase.com/archive/police_documents/index.htm

On May 29th 2005, at approximately 16.00 hours, I went with Joran to the “Free Carribean Stud Tournament” in the Holiday Inn. During the break, at approximately 18.30 hours, I went back home. My youngest son Sebastian, who was playing at a friends house, was due to be dropped off at home around that time. Joran, with my permission, took over my seat because he had been eliminated earlier. We had agreed that he would call me after the tournament, in order for me to come and pick him up. He did indeed call me and at approximately 23.00 hour I picked him up near the McDonalds on Palm Beach with my red Suzuki. We drove home and I went to bed. I presumed he also had gone to bed. Afterwards we found out that he had gone out to Carlos & Charlies without my permission.

According to the above, Paul was at the casino from 4 until 6:30. Wasn't Natalee still napping or getting ready for the evening at that time? It's been a long time since I read about it, but I thought she arrived at the Casino closer to 8:30, certainly no earlier than 6:30, and she arrived at the bar sometime around 10:30.

I didn't see that statement (above quote), but found the following interesting:

"Joran had given me 100 guilders because he had taken over my place in the tournament."

http://www.hollowaycase.com/archive/police_documents/pvds623.htm

 

[otto]

Ve-ry interesting! I never followed the Natalee case that closely, especially info re: Paulus...but with just a quick 'google' right now I found information and photos that support your theory!!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...US377US377&tbs=isch:1&ei=vKhJTLGdEYKesQPf1NVI

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...US377US377&tbs=isch:1&ei=vKhJTLGdEYKesQPf1NVI

Those pictures floated around a few years ago. That man is not Paulus, although some people thought there was a resemblance.

 

[FLNY]

r u thinking of the one where you draw your hand across your neck? (as if slitting your throat with your hand?)

ETA: wouldn't that be fitting in this case?

I'm going with that one!!! :dance:

 

[otto]

Ive always wondered about this, privately. It could be the one area Joran
opens up about, some time down the road, if anything he says can ever be
believed. If nothing else it is established PVS would enter a casino, would
take his sons there, would bankrole them going there, da dah da dah. All
sporters. While Anita kept her nose to the grindstone and held down a
teacher's job staying home in free time taking care of her family and,
baking cookies - da dah da dah? :waitasec:

You may have opened a door here. You may be Ahead of your time, in
the future news cycle not far off?

In the article I linked above, Paulus claims that Joran won $500 Aruban Guldens, and that he paid Paulus $100 to take over his seat at the table. It doesn't sound like Joran was being bankrolled by his father ... if you are to believe the statement attributed to Paulus.

 

[otto]

IIRC both Jaap Amesz (Terror Jaap) and Bert de Rooij said Joran had contacted them. The taxi drivers said he was on his computer non-stop.

It was also reported very near to his arrest that Jaap's computers and those of "one other" had been confiscated by Dutch police in co-operation with the FBI.

I read that the taxi drivers said Joran chain smoked and slept most of the time.

 

[otto]

Suzihawk and FLNY: Thank you so much for the info, links and opinions. All I can say is WOW! The nut didn't fall too far from the tree did it? He was sitting right next to her. How creepy. Uh Oooh!

Lola, I don't recall that, but believe you. I was just asking awhile back if there was any further news on the Jaap's computer being confiscated.

Going to go dig a little......Thx.

There is no evidence that Natalee and Paulus were at the casino at the same time. Natalee had a long nap in the afternoon, got ready in the evening, I think she had something to eat with friends, and then they went to the casino. That's what I remember. Paulus was at home looking after the two younger children by the time Natalee arrived at the casino.

 

[otto]

I completely agree, and I still don't think robbery was the motive or the reason he took her to his room despite all the speculation and PLE's claims. I am ready to change my opinion upon seeing evidence, but my gut instinct tells me that sex/date-rape on the anniversary is how it started out.

MOO

If he used a date rape drug, she would have been out cold, at which time he could have raped, robbed, and been on a plane back to Aruba without murdering her. If he drugged her, there wouldn't have been a struggle.

 

[otto]

IIRC someone had investigated video tapes *advertiser censored*) at 1 time with a small ring........JVS, a few boys and maybe dad, then it was hush hush..........
right after Natalee went missing. Anyone remember???

There was a rumor that Joran and his friends called themselves the pimps (something like that) and that they had been in Florida making *advertiser censored* movies. Anita has said that she and Joran were in Florida looking at post-secondary opportunities. No *advertiser censored* films have surfaced since those rumors started 5 years ago.

 

[asiabrasil]

If he used a date rape drug, she would have been out cold, at which time he could have raped, robbed, and been on a plane back to Aruba without murdering her. If he drugged her, there wouldn't have been a struggle.

Not necessarily. It has been speculated that with her possibly getting a lower dosage somehow, combined with the amphetamines in her system, she may well have awoken and reacted.

 

[otto]

Not necessarily. It has been speculated that with her possibly getting a lower dosage somehow, combined with the amphetamines in her system, she may well have awoken and reacted.

Is the theory that he drugged her, took off her pants, then she kind of woke up, a fight broke out, and he murdered her? If she had evidence under her nails (per her father's statements), then she definitely put up good fight. Would a groggy person, half out of it on rohypnol, be able to scratch an attacker?

 

[pittsburghgirl]

If he used a date rape drug, she would have been out cold, at which time he could have raped, robbed, and been on a plane back to Aruba without murdering her. If he drugged her, there wouldn't have been a struggle.

He may have attempted to use the drugs but failed to give the right dosage. For example, people often leave drinks partially full or untouched. He may have decided to wait until they got to the hotel room to try to drug near, but Stephany might have declined the offer for a drink.

He also may have been worried about overdosing after Natalee's death.

 

[otto]

He may have attempted to use the drugs but failed to give the right dosage. For example, people often leave drinks partially full or untouched. He may have decided to wait until they got to the hotel room to try to drug near, but Stephany might have declined the offer for a drink.

He also may have been worried about overdosing after Natalee's death.

I don't believe he drugged her drink at the casino ... if he had, it would be on tape.

The story is that there were ghb packages in the car (per NG), and we know that he wasn't in the car until they left the casino. That would mean that he used the ghb on her after they returned to his hotel. There have been rumors that Joran used ghb on women from long before he met Natalee. If that's the case, how could he possibly make a mistake about the dosage, or how much of a drink a woman needed to consume after being drugged?

The whole ghb thing started with Beth, and her suspicion that Natalee was date-rape drugged, gang raped, and then died during convulsions or seizures (per her book). In the last 5 years, and earlier, there have been no confirmations that Joran used date rape drugs, and there has been no victim, witness, or evidence to support the theory. There was no evidence of anything beyond amphetamines in Stephany's system. If she died shortly after consuming ghb, it would have been in her system during autopsy.

 

[asiabrasil]

Is the theory that he drugged her, took off her pants, then she kind of woke up, a fight broke out, and he murdered her? If she had evidence under her nails (per her father's statements), then she definitely put up good fight. Would a groggy person, half out of it on rohypnol, be able to scratch an attacker?

Yes, that's one theory. It seems plausible Another equally plausible scenario is that she simply tried to leave for some reason* and he tried to block her exit. She pushed or struck him in an attempt to gain access to the door, and he went off.

*maybe an unwanted, unexpected sexual advance.

 

[otto]

Yes, that's one theory. It seems plausible Another equally plausible scenario is that she simply tried to leave for some reason* and he tried to block her exit. She pushed or struck him in an attempt to gain access to the door, and he went off.

*maybe an unwanted, unexpected sexual advance.

Joran had girlfriends from about the time he was 16. I don't see him having any reason to force sex on a woman. It doesn't appear that he forced sex on Stephany, as there was no evidence of sexual contact. From all reports, he was a bit of a playboy on the beach with tourists in Aruba (pretending to be a tourist) until Natalee's disappearance.

The date rape/gang rape/accidental death theory is what Beth first believed. Does she still believe that today? Knowing that a woman was murdered, most likely by Joran, on the 5th anniversary of her daughter's disappearance ... and learning that it was an unexpected, sudden, violent, attack ... does she still believe that Natalee was given a date rape, raped, and that she had seizures before she disappeared?

 

[FLNY]

I read that the taxi drivers said Joran chain smoked and slept most of the time.

"... in a TV interview ... [the driver] Aparcana said van der Sloot appeared 'worried, because he kept smoking cigarettes.'

'He didn't have a cell phone but he had a laptop that he would take out, handle and then put back'."

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/sto...ce-murder-charges/Yt3ZfOWrfkamSciSkjhM8g.cspx

 

[FLNY]

Those pictures floated around a few years ago. That man is not Paulus, although some people thought there was a resemblance.

How do you know the man in the photo with Natalee at the casino is not Paulus? Do you have a link to a police statement confirming that?

 

[suzihawk]

Joran had girlfriends from about the time he was 16. I don't see him having any reason to force sex on a woman. It doesn't appear that he forced sex on Stephany, as there was no evidence of sexual contact. From all reports, he was a bit of a playboy on the beach with tourists in Aruba (pretending to be a tourist) until Natalee's disappearance.

The date rape/gang rape/accidental death theory is what Beth first believed. Does she still believe that today? Knowing that a woman was murdered, most likely by Joran, on the 5th anniversary of her daughter's disappearance ... and learning that it was an unexpected, sudden, violent, attack ... does she still believe that Natalee was given a date rape, raped, and that she had seizures before she disappeared?

I've been away for a couple of days and haven't had time to catch up. But I wanted to comment on this.

Forcing sex on a woman (rape) is rarely about sex. It's about control, anger and many other factors I don't have time to go into at this point. All things that characterize JVS as we've come to know of him the past five years. It angers me when one portrays what he was doing to these young women as innocent sex. If you drug them to have sex, it's rape - pure and simple.

Yes, he was known to prey on young female tourists and pose a a tourist himself to accomplish this. I guess one can pretty it up by labeling him as a 'playboy', but no matter what you call it, he was pimping them out, IMO. Which tends to confirm in my mind that he was involved in more than just innocent adolescent male behavior. MOO

 

[annalia]

In the article I linked above, Paulus claims that Joran won $500 Aruban Guldens, and that he paid Paulus $100 to take over his seat at the table. It doesn't sound like Joran was being bankrolled by his father ... if you are to believe the statement attributed to Paulus.

Then who was giving Joran the money to use to go drinking and to the casinos? By accounts back then Joran wasn't working so the money came from his parents. If Joran later gave his father some money from winnings, that doesn't mean his parents weren't still bankrolling him.

 

[annalia]

Joran had girlfriends from about the time he was 16. I don't see him having any reason to force sex on a woman. It doesn't appear that he forced sex on Stephany, as there was no evidence of sexual contact. From all reports, he was a bit of a playboy on the beach with tourists in Aruba (pretending to be a tourist) until Natalee's disappearance.

The date rape/gang rape/accidental death theory is what Beth first believed. Does she still believe that today? Knowing that a woman was murdered, most likely by Joran, on the 5th anniversary of her daughter's disappearance ... and learning that it was an unexpected, sudden, violent, attack ... does she still believe that Natalee was given a date rape, raped, and that she had seizures before she disappeared?

My boldings,

What accounts were they other than things that Joran himself said ?

Beth may have believed that but police have said things along the same lines. Wasn't it Dompig who said in an interview with Jossy Mansur that they could possibly get them on rape and didn't he say something along those lines in an American tv interview, that police think they might have drugged Natalee , I can't recall which one maybe Dateline or 48 hours ?

With due respect, having girlfriends and using date rape drugs or raping other girls doesn't really mean anything. Many a rapist has had girlfriends, wives even children. As far as Stephany, because there was no evidence of sexual contact doesn't mean that he wasn't trying to rape her and she fought to her death over it. What could her not having any pants on when she was found mean ?

 

[mystified]

I have been thinking since I first heard about this case when Joran says Stephany hit him upside his head, that Stephany doesn't look like a mean girl type to me and also get that feeling she wasn't from what her friends and family have said about her. Anyway I'm thinking "if" the story Joran told about her reading something about him is if it wasn't kinda like a little thump playfully that she did. Joran being the hot headed person he is blew a gasget and poor Stephany didn't even mean anything by it but also she had no idea that Joran would react that way towards her. It just bothers me that she probably meant no harm by it if she thmped him and this senseless, brutal beating that led to her death because Joran is so..I don't know what word to use here, compulsive, arrogant, out of control he just takes things too far and goes over the edge. Like can't take a joke or IDK, just does not make sense. I can't get the words out I'm trying to get across.