POI: Michael Pak

[BKS]

Are you saying that Commissioner Dormer made a false statement to the Council?
http://legis.suffolkcountyny.gov/cle...1/PS121511.pdf

Being a sex worker, or being described as one, does not constitute evidence thatshe was doing that on that particular night.

There is no (zero) evidence to support that. To charge him they would need clear evidence, and they do not have it. Speculation is not evidence, even speculation by LE.

 

[WINDSOR]

BKS

Thanks, and right on,

These are Dormer's exact words

"May 1st, 2010, a sex worker, prostitute, responds with her driver to Oak Beach"


Lets stop this stupid debate about what MP and SG were doing that night. SG was a sex worker, and MP was her driver, and both were violating New York State laws.

I am sure that the Commissioner would testify under oath to these facts.





So everybody is up to date, here are the statutes

S 230.15: Promoting prostitution; definitions of terms
The following definitions are applicable to this article:

1. "Advance prostitution." A person "advances prostitution" when, acting other than as a prostitute or as a patron thereof, he knowingly causes or aids a person to commit or engage in prostitution, procures or solicits patrons for prostitution, provides persons or premises for prostitution purposes, operates or assists in the operation of a house of prostitution or a prostitution enterprise, or engages in any other conduct designed to institute, aid or facilitate an act or enterprise of prostitution. this would be what a driver does

2. "Profit from prostitution." A person "profits from prostitution" when, acting other than as a prostitute receiving compensation for personally rendered prostitution services, he accepts or receives money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of prostitution activity.


S 230.20: Promoting prostitution in the fourth degree
A person is guilty of promoting prostitution in the fourth degree when he knowingly advances or profits from prostitution. this is the statute MP should be charged under

Promoting prostitution in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.


70.15 Sentences of imprisonment for misdemeanors and violation.
1. Class A misdemeanor. A sentence of imprisonment for a class A misdemeanor shall be a definite sentence. When such a sentence is imposed the term shall be fixed by the court, and shall not exceed one year; provided, however, that a sentence of imprisonment imposed upon a
conviction of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree as
defined in subdivision one of section 265.01 must be for a period of no
less than one year when the conviction was the result of a plea of
guilty entered in satisfaction of an indictment or any count thereof
charging the defendant with the class D violent felony offense of
criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree as defined in
subdivision four of section 265.02, except that the court may impose any
other sentence authorized by law upon a person who has not been
previously convicted in the five years immediately preceding the
commission of the offense for a felony or a class A misdemeanor defined
in this chapter, if the court having regard to the nature and
circumstances of the crime and to the history and character of the
defendant, finds on the record that such sentence would be unduly harsh
and that the alternative sentence would be consistent with public safety
and does not deprecate the seriousness of the crime.

In conclusion it is clear New York State law defines MP's activities relating to SG in May as criminal and he should face all legal consequences.

We have Dormer's and MP's own public statements that verify the facts of the matter.

I would love somebody from SCPD or the DA's office to please explain why charges have not been laid, there is evidence of a crime.


At least they should say "We have a POI and we cannot disclose anything else" but they do not even say that.

I am getting frustrated!

MOO

 

[BKS]

The only reason I can see that they would not be prosecuting MP and JB at this time, would be that one of them is giving up some information.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Bks,
OR
They are keeping a close eye on them and documenting their activities.

 

[Tugela]

Are you saying that Commissioner Dormer made a false statement to the Council?
http://legis.suffolkcountyny.gov/cle...1/PS121511.pdf

He is expressing an opinion, it is not a statement of fact.

His opinion is two fold, one is that she was a prostitute, and two that she was committing an act of prostitution that night in particular (two separate and distinct things - one does not prove the other)

But, unless he has first hand knowledge of either of those things, they remain his opinion, not fact.

He would never be asked to testify in court about the factual basis of those opinions unless (A) he had used/witnessed her services before and therefore knew for a fact that she was indeed a prostitute, and/or (B) was present inside JB's house on the night of the incident and personally witnessed an act of prostitution.

If he did testify as if fact in court without that first hand knowledge he would be guilty of perjury.

So, let me repeat once more, he is expressing an opinion. It is not evidence.

 

[Tugela]

BKS

Thanks, and right on,

These are Dormer's exact words

"May 1st, 2010, a sex worker, prostitute, responds with her driver to Oak Beach"


Lets stop this stupid debate about what MP and SG were doing that night. SG was a sex worker, and MP was her driver, and both were violating New York State laws.

I am sure that the Commissioner would testify under oath to these facts.





So everybody is up to date, here are the statutes

S 230.15: Promoting prostitution; definitions of terms
The following definitions are applicable to this article:

1. "Advance prostitution." A person "advances prostitution" when, acting other than as a prostitute or as a patron thereof, he knowingly causes or aids a person to commit or engage in prostitution, procures or solicits patrons for prostitution, provides persons or premises for prostitution purposes, operates or assists in the operation of a house of prostitution or a prostitution enterprise, or engages in any other conduct designed to institute, aid or facilitate an act or enterprise of prostitution. this would be what a driver does

2. "Profit from prostitution." A person "profits from prostitution" when, acting other than as a prostitute receiving compensation for personally rendered prostitution services, he accepts or receives money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of prostitution activity.


S 230.20: Promoting prostitution in the fourth degree
A person is guilty of promoting prostitution in the fourth degree when he knowingly advances or profits from prostitution. this is the statute MP should be charged under

Promoting prostitution in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor.


70.15 Sentences of imprisonment for misdemeanors and violation.
1. Class A misdemeanor. A sentence of imprisonment for a class A misdemeanor shall be a definite sentence. When such a sentence is imposed the term shall be fixed by the court, and shall not exceed one year; provided, however, that a sentence of imprisonment imposed upon a
conviction of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree as
defined in subdivision one of section 265.01 must be for a period of no
less than one year when the conviction was the result of a plea of
guilty entered in satisfaction of an indictment or any count thereof
charging the defendant with the class D violent felony offense of
criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree as defined in
subdivision four of section 265.02, except that the court may impose any
other sentence authorized by law upon a person who has not been
previously convicted in the five years immediately preceding the
commission of the offense for a felony or a class A misdemeanor defined
in this chapter, if the court having regard to the nature and
circumstances of the crime and to the history and character of the
defendant, finds on the record that such sentence would be unduly harsh
and that the alternative sentence would be consistent with public safety
and does not deprecate the seriousness of the crime.

In conclusion it is clear New York State law defines MP's activities relating to SG in May as criminal and he should face all legal consequences.

We have Dormer's and MP's own public statements that verify the facts of the matter.

I would love somebody from SCPD or the DA's office to please explain why charges have not been laid, there is evidence of a crime.


At least they should say "We have a POI and we cannot disclose anything else" but they do not even say that.

I am getting frustrated!

MOO

You don't understand law and the legal system.

This is why the jury system is bad.

Dormer doesn't verify anything, he is giving an opinion, but those are not facts that would be accepted in court as evidence.

In order to proceed with a case against either MP or JB they will require a witness to testify that an act of prostitution took place or was contracted for. The only people who can do this are SG, MP and JB, since they were the only people present.

SG is dead and can't testify to anything.

JB is not going to say he paid her because doing so would be confessing to a crime, and he is not going to do that for no reason.

MP is not going to say JB paid her because doing so would be confessing to a crime, and he is not going to do that for no reason.

So, no witnesses. No witnesses = no case. No case = no charge.

To file charges and conduct a prosecution, the DA will require evidence that a crime has been committed. Not a crime someone thinks probably happened last week, or might have happened last year, but a crime that happened on that specific night at that specific place. The DA does not have that evidence, and unless someone for some reason confesses, will not have that evidence.

So no charges. I don't care what the statute says, they still require evidence to charge.

Does that explain it enough?

 

[Theforeigner]

You don't understand law and the legal system.

This is why the jury system is bad.

Dormer doesn't verify anything, he is giving in opinion, but those are not facts that would be accepted in court as evidence.

In order to proceed with a case against either MP or JB they will require a witness to testify that an act of prostitution took place or was contracted for. The only people who can do this are SG, MP and JB, since they were the only people present.

SG is dead and can't testify to anything.

JB is not going to say he paid her because doing so would be confessing to a crime, and he is not going to do that for no reason.

MP is not going to say JB paid her because doing so would be confessing to a crime, and he is not going to do that for no reason.

So, no witnesses. No witnesses = no case. No case = no charge.

To file charges and conduct a prosecution, the DA will require evidence that a crime has been committed. Not a crime someone thinks probably happened last week, or might have happened last year, but a crime that happened on that specific night at that specific place. The DA does not have that evidence, and unless someone for some reason confesses, will not have that evidence.

So no charges. I don't care what the statute says, they still require evidence to charge.

Does that explain it enough?

Hi Tugela

Since you seem to know the law, could you please take a look at the posts
#93 and #94 at this thred, and give your opinion :

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156579&page=4

Thanks in advance...

Theforeigner

 

[WINDSOR]

You don't understand law and the legal system.

This is why the jury system is bad.

Dormer doesn't verify anything, he is giving an opinion, but those are not facts that would be accepted in court as evidence.

In order to proceed with a case against either MP or JB they will require a witness to testify that an act of prostitution took place or was contracted for. The only people who can do this are SG, MP and JB, since they were the only people present.

SG is dead and can't testify to anything.

JB is not going to say he paid her because doing so would be confessing to a crime, and he is not going to do that for no reason.

MP is not going to say JB paid her because doing so would be confessing to a crime, and he is not going to do that for no reason.

So, no witnesses. No witnesses = no case. No case = no charge.

To file charges and conduct a prosecution, the DA will require evidence that a crime has been committed. Not a crime someone thinks probably happened last week, or might have happened last year, but a crime that happened on that specific night at that specific place. The DA does not have that evidence, and unless someone for some reason confesses, will not have that evidence.

So no charges. I don't care what the statute says, they still require evidence to charge.

Does that explain it enough?

Tugela I have to respectfully disagree with you.

1) Regarding Dormer's statements, You do not know how the court would rule. A Police officer's statement is often evidence in a court of law.

2) The fact you think the jury system is bad, says a lot about your understanding. Since the jury system is guaranteed in Federal courts by the US Constitution, I suppose you have a problem with that too.

3)If you re-read the statutes again no where does it say the participants of the prostitution activities has to testify.

4) I shoot and kill somebody. The dead person cannot testify. I will not admit killing him. So according to your theory I should not be charged as no evidence exists.

4a) As in the above scenario, but a neighbor of the dead man testifies he saw me run from the deceased man's house at the time of the shooting. The Police has a photo of me brandishing the same sort of gun that killed the victim. I had gunshot residue on my hand. A friend of mine testifies I was mad at the deceased because he cheated me on a drug deal, and I told my buddy I would get even. I admit in a newspaper interview that I might have shot the deceased but cannot really remember because it was late and I was tired.

Tugela it the totally of the evidence that leads a judge and jury to a conclusion. It does not have to be eyewitness testimony.

5) I agree you do not care what the statute says, but that is how our system of justice works. So if that is the system we are dealing with one should read and accept what is written.



Another example. To prove drug trafficking, certain laws do not even say a transaction has to take place, only that the quantity of drugs exceeded a certain threshold. If you have 10 kilo's of crack in your possession you will not have much luck convincing the court you are not trafficking. Even if you say no evidence of trafficking exists you are still likely going to jail.


BTW Martha Stewart went to jail based on much weaker evidence than exists regarding MP.


MOO

 

[Samantha Spade]

Windsor posted - "1) Regarding Dormer's statements, You do not know how the court would rule. A Police officer's statement is often evidence in a court of law."

I agree with you Windsor. Experienced Officers are aware of how their actions and statements will one day be interpreted in a courtroom. And if they don't know it now, they will one day find out the hard way. The name Mark Furman comes to mind (OJ Trial). That is why I am stunned by the Letter sent to the paper regarding the investigation into Shannan's disappearance. Hawkshaw said that the detective who reportedly sent the letter in is an experienced and well respected detective. My interpretation of that is - he should know better. Did he react and defend his team on pure emotion? If so, then he played right into the attorney's hands. I'm really just surprised and think there must be something more to it.

 

[Justiceforever]

I knew a guy who was a male prostitute from time to time. I'm pretty sure he always got paid in cash and/or drugs (as he was an addict). I can't imagine them using something that would leave a paper or electronic trail.

l


A lot of call girls do accept credit cards and paypal When I was in the business I used an actual credit card machine. Now they have phones that actually have a credit card swiper built into the phone.

I also wanted to point out that with experience in this industry you learn that it is perfectly legal to sell your time and companionship . Then whatever may or may not happen in that time is between consenting adults. For this reason it is hard to make a case for prostitution if the woman makes this clear...and makes no promoise of sexual favors for money. I think most call girls know this. I think Brewer knew it too. Having said that I must also say that there are woman in the industry that " so called rip off" clients. Ie... I collect your money...I stall using massage etc...the hours almost up...the guy is like wait...we didnt do anything and you got my money...oh well...no refunds buddy...after all I never ppromised you a thing other than a partially nude massage...what are they going to do...call the cops...of course not because they are the ones soliciting prostitution. Most guys let you walk out without a problem...some however can get quite angry.

 

[WINDSOR]

l


A lot of call girls do accept credit cards and paypal When I was in the business I used an actual credit card machine. Now they have phones that actually have a credit card swiper built into the phone.

I also wanted to point out that with experience in this industry you learn that it is perfectly legal to sell your time and companionship . Then whatever may or may not happen in that time is between consenting adults. For this reason it is hard to make a case for prostitution if the woman makes this clear...and makes no promoise of sexual favors for money. I think most call girls know this. I think Brewer knew it too. Having said that I must also say that there are woman in the industry that " so called rip off" clients. Ie... I collect your money...I stall using massage etc...the hours almost up...the guy is like wait...we didnt do anything and you got my money...oh well...no refunds buddy...after all I never ppromised you a thing other than a partially nude massage...what are they going to do...call the cops...of course not because they are the ones soliciting prostitution. Most guys let you walk out without a problem...some however can get quite angry.

Of course the idea for participants in the sex-trade is to act as if nothing illegal is taking place makes absolute sense. MP is just a driver, SG was a just a companion, JB was just a lonely man, perfectly harmless.

Evil people will always portray their activities as legal and/or victim-less. Drugs, Gambling, Prostitution, Loan Sharking, Extortion are all portrayed as innocent pastimes that do not hurt anybody, but the participants who choose to participate.

What a fallacy.

The fact that there are so many dead people in this case alone proves the point.

People like MP and JB, who facilitate the activity must be held to account.

MOO

 

[PreciousDust]

Of course the idea for participants in the sex-trade is to act as if nothing illegal is taking place makes absolute sense. MP is just a driver, SG was a just a companion, JB was just a lonely man, perfectly harmless.

Evil people will always portray their activities as legal and/or victim-less. Drugs, Gambling, Prostitution, Loan Sharking, Extortion are all portrayed as innocent pastimes that do not hurt anybody, but the participants who choose to participate.

What a fallacy.

The fact that there are so many dead people in this case alone proves the point.

People like MP and JB, who facilitate the activity must be held to account.

MOO

Even ignoring the "evil people" bit, which is off the charts and completely subjective (are escorts or their clients, or drug users, demonstrably more "evil" than plenty of ostensibly law-abiding people who are just complete a-holes?), I disagree. Loan sharking is not in the same class as, for instance, someone who likes to smoke pot once in a while. Extortion bears no resemblance at all, either in criminality or degree, to someone who buys a scratch lottery ticket. Those type of acts can not be grouped together without sounding ridiculous. One could make the case that the pot smoker is facilitating organized crime, or that the lottery ticket buyer is engaged in a slippery slope that leads to poverty and family ruin, but that's tired and hysterical logic that has little to do with reality - plenty of people smoke an occasional joint yet lead productive lives (liquor, though legal, is in all respects worse for a person and society), plenty of people play the lottery and don't end up on skid row. If all JB did is hire an escort, then moralists can say it's "sad" or "depraved" or anything else they'd like to say, but there's nothing to "hold him to account" about, not in any real-world sense - there's no charge that would ever be filed against him at this late date. Likewise with MP's driving an escort to her appointed rounds in 2010 - a weak charge might have been filed at the time ("accessory to prostitution", I don't know), but no police department is going to file a charge like that two years after the fact.

 

[Justiceforever]

Of course the idea for participants in the sex-trade is to act as if nothing illegal is taking place makes absolute sense. MP is just a driver, SG was a just a companion, JB was just a lonely man, perfectly harmless.

Evil people will always portray their activities as legal and/or victim-less. Drugs, Gambling, Prostitution, Loan Sharking, Extortion are all portrayed as innocent pastimes that do not hurt anybody, but the participants who choose to participate.

What a fallacy.

The fact that there are so many dead people in this case alone proves the point.

People like MP and JB, who facilitate the activity must be held to account.

MOO

It seems to me the only "so called evil " person
Is the murderer...but that's just my perspective which is not from a top a moral high horse

 

[Justiceforever]

I would venture to say the killer also rides horseback in his thinking that these women are "evil " Same kind of thinking ...he just to it to a whole different level

 

[WINDSOR]

Even ignoring the "evil people" bit, which is off the charts and completely subjective (are escorts or their clients, or drug users, demonstrably more "evil" than plenty of ostensibly law-abiding people who are just complete a-holes?), I disagree. Loan sharking is not in the same class as, for instance, someone who likes to smoke pot once in a while. Extortion bears no resemblance at all, either in criminality or degree, to someone who buys a scratch lottery ticket. Those type of acts can not be grouped together without sounding ridiculous. One could make the case that the pot smoker is facilitating organized crime, or that the lottery ticket buyer is engaged in a slippery slope that leads to poverty and family ruin, but that's tired and hysterical logic that has little to do with reality - plenty of people smoke an occasional joint yet lead productive lives (liquor, though legal, is in all respects worse for a person and society), plenty of people play the lottery and don't end up on skid row. If all JB did is hire an escort, then moralists can say it's "sad" or "depraved" or anything else they'd like to say, but there's nothing to "hold him to account" about, not in any real-world sense - there's no charge that would ever be filed against him at this late date. Likewise with MP's driving an escort to her appointed rounds in 2010 - a weak charge might have been filed at the time ("accessory to prostitution", I don't know), but no police department is going to file a charge like that two years after the fact.

PRESCIOUS DUST
I regret my choice of words, in that I should have said 'people who do evil things' versus 'evil people'.

You bring up an interesting point with smoking the occasional joint or buying a scratch lottery ticket. I tend to believe that the key to these pleasures are the concept of moderation. Most things in life when done in moderation are not bad or evil; having a glass of wine, being in a football pool at work, even eating a large meal with two desserts. However when things go to excess and lead to alcoholism, addiction and obesity then problems start.

BTW I am overweight, buy lottery tickets and drink liquor, so I am not being self-righteous.

If we do not hold people like JB and others accountable for hiring an escort, then the whole system of female exploitation will continue.

We have an moral obligation to the world. That harmless joint that one buys leads to death and carnage among the drug cartels in Mexico fighting over narco-profits.

Tolerance is a good and worthy virtue, but individual character and moral fiber are required as well on each of our parts.

Regarding your comment 'no police department is going to file a charge' I am not sure I agree but I would bet that SCPD never files a charge in this case



JUSTICE FOREVER,

I hope I clarified my use of the word evil, the killer may think his victims are evil, or he may think they are just prey, or targets of opportunity.

I am sorry that I offended both of you with my characterization of 'evil people', however I believe people who do evil things deserve the label.

I do not think I am alone in this attitude. Have you ever noticed when somebody tries to open a half-way house, or a rehab home in a residential area how the local residents get up in arms?

How many of JB's neighbors were happy to learn of his life-style, and sent him wishes of encouragement after May 1, 2010?

MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

Some months ago I had suggested that at least MP and possibly JB be charged under NY State's prostitution laws. I had hoped that pressing charges would loosen some tongues and create some activity. I was castigated by some posters, that the charges were frivolous and the SCPD and the DA's office have much higher priorities, and so on and so on.


mystery mom has posted on this site stories about 'sting' activities undertaken by SCPD
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183641"]prior arrests for prostitution - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

The charges, in most cases misdemeanors, are the same type I was advocating that MP be charged with.

Does SCPD have a double standard when it involves this case?

MOO

 

[Tugela]

Some months ago I had suggested that at least MP and possibly JB be charged under NY State's prostitution laws. I had hoped that pressing charges would loosen some tongues and create some activity. I was castigated by some posters, that the charges were frivolous and the SCPD and the DA's office have much higher priorities, and so on and so on.


mystery mom has posted on this site stories about 'sting' activities undertaken by SCPD
prior arrests for prostitution - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

The charges, in most cases misdemeanors, are the same type I was advocating that MP be charged with.

Does SCPD have a double standard when it involves this case?

MOO

If you look at those charges, they are about police responding to neighborhood complaints about streetwalker activity. The sort of prostitution involved in this case is a different catagory. Mostly police leave that sort alone. Their usual primary target is streetwalkers, because that is the sort of prostitution that is visible and people find offensive. Even streetwalkers will be left mostly alone if they conduct their business in an out of the way place such as an industrial area. Of course that is terribly dangerous for them personally, because they are very vulnerable under those circumstances if something goes wrong, there is no help on hand.

 

[Tugela]

PRESCIOUS DUST
I regret my choice of words, in that I should have said 'people who do evil things' versus 'evil people'.

You bring up an interesting point with smoking the occasional joint or buying a scratch lottery ticket. I tend to believe that the key to these pleasures are the concept of moderation. Most things in life when done in moderation are not bad or evil; having a glass of wine, being in a football pool at work, even eating a large meal with two desserts. However when things go to excess and lead to alcoholism, addiction and obesity then problems start.

BTW I am overweight, buy lottery tickets and drink liquor, so I am not being self-righteous.

If we do not hold people like JB and others accountable for hiring an escort, then the whole system of female exploitation will continue.

We have an moral obligation to the world. That harmless joint that one buys leads to death and carnage among the drug cartels in Mexico fighting over narco-profits.

Tolerance is a good and worthy virtue, but individual character and moral fiber are required as well on each of our parts.

Regarding your comment 'no police department is going to file a charge' I am not sure I agree but I would bet that SCPD never files a charge in this case



JUSTICE FOREVER,

I hope I clarified my use of the word evil, the killer may think his victims are evil, or he may think they are just prey, or targets of opportunity.

I am sorry that I offended both of you with my characterization of 'evil people', however I believe people who do evil things deserve the label.

I do not think I am alone in this attitude. Have you ever noticed when somebody tries to open a half-way house, or a rehab home in a residential area how the local residents get up in arms?

How many of JB's neighbors were happy to learn of his life-style, and sent him wishes of encouragement after May 1, 2010?

MOO

There is nothing inherently "evil" about prostitution. People don't approve of it, but the bottom line is that it is a private affair between two consenting adults and therefore is really none of our business.

Using the drug war in Mexico is not an appropriate comparison, because the violence there is a direct result of the vigorous law enforcement in the US. If you want a deeper understanding of that, it is exactly the same as prohibition in early part of the 20th century. Once alcohol was made illegal, people still wanted it and that created an opportunity for violent ruthless gangster to exploit and supply what people wanted. Once prohibition was lifted, the ability of criminals to profit went away and so did all the alcohol supply violence. The exact same thing will happen with drugs.

Women who practice prostitution are not evil. Men who use their services are not evil. No more than drinking alcohol or buying lottery tickets are evil (and remember, there are lots who say those things ARE wrong). What is evil are the criminals who try to control the supply of that profession. They do it through threats, coercion and extortion. Just like with drugs and just like with alcohol during prohibition. Legalize and regulate the trade, as we do with alcohol or tobacco, and much of that criminality will dissappear. There will still be issues of course, mostly relating to streetwalkers and the public response to them.

 

[WINDSOR]

Tugela

Once alcohol was made illegal, people still wanted it and that created an opportunity for violent ruthless gangster to exploit and supply what people wanted. Once prohibition was lifted, the ability of criminals to profit went away and so did all the alcohol supply violence. The exact same thing will happen with drugs.

I once agreed with your thinking on this point. I felt that if drugs were legalized, drug use would not increase, and the criminal elements would wither away.

In fact I did some research into the time of the Opium Wars in China, where the British government was fighting for the right to sell opium to Chinese citizens. Under Chinese law the punishment for drug trafficking was death.

Where the British were successful, and there were no criminal sanctions for personal usage of opium, it was estimated that 25% of the Chinese male population were addicts. One must be careful for what one asks for as you may get it.

Imagine 25% of the males in New York being addicts.

As the Strategic Air Command used to say
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"

MOO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Now might be a good time for some of us to review the legal definition of hearsay.