Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[Emmi]

This would be all well and good if she did experience feelings of "hurt" or emotional pain during the abuse, but if she's a sociopath she does not feel emotional pain. Then again, this is assuming she is a sociopath.

If she is able to feel empathy for her own self as a result of some narcissistic aspects, then she could have doled out a use to Travis without considering how it affected him...

Jodi cannot connect with people normally. So when she gets to connect, whether it be by fighting or getting along, both serve her need to have some sort of connection.

After all even if it's an abusive relationship, she doesn't care as it is a relationship in general... Something she is usually unable to maintain.

There are many, many people--not just personality disordered people--who would take/tolerate an abusive relationship over no relationship at all. There are many people who have trouble connecting in healthy ways, but who have a need to connect nonetheless. This isn't a good thing--it's sad--but I hardly think this is a point on which we can illustrate how Jodi wildly diverges from the rest of humanity. In this way, unfortunately, she is a dime a dozen.

And, where is the evidence that there is any non-brain-dead person on earth who is, like a robot, completely immune to emotional pain? If there are examples of this type of walking, talking, sentient robot with no ability to experience emotional pain, I highly doubt Jodi--even if she has sociopathic traits--would fit into such an extreme category.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Thanks Slanda. I appreciate the sobering words (as ENTJ it's your talent!)

I guess for me as a borderline, I am just praying that they don't chalk all of her sinister behavior and lack of empathy up to being Borferline PD. in the next trial I really hope that they show/prove that she has heavy sociopathic aspects to give further detail on her illness.

Its like when people equate sociopaths and autistic individuals. Autistic people really take offense to being equated to sociopaths just bc of a lack of empathy (bc autistics have normal emotional IQ).

Borderlines feel the same way. There are many sociopaths that have borderline characteristics and we are constant fighting the stigma that borderline disorder is sociopathic PD.

sure borderlines may have something similar to autistics in the way that they both maintain an functional emotional IQ, but Jodi does not posess this.

I believe molly333 is correct is thinking that Jodi's borderline (as the tests showed) is also very much so like autism, in the way that maybe her emotional IQ is so extremely low and that her cognitive IQ is mid to high that the dissonance creates mass paranoia and snaps with reality or anxiety.

but I honestly think there is some deep sociopathy there as well that hasn't been taken into consideration.

She said she still loves Travis in the interview the other night.

Many times sociopaths will kill off the part of their victim they dislike and retain their positive associations and obsessions with their victim after. I think this is Happening with Jodi.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

There are many, many people--not just personality disordered people--who would take/tolerate an abusive relationship over no relationship at all. There are many people who have trouble connecting in healthy ways, but who have a need to connect nonetheless. This isn't a good thing--it's sad--but I hardly think this is a point on which we can illustrate how Jodi wildly diverges from the rest of humanity. In this way, unfortunately, she is a dime a dozen.

And, where is the evidence that there is any non-brain bead person on earth who is, like a robot, completely immune to emotional pain? If there are examples of this type of walking, talking, sentient robot with no ability to experience emotional pain, I highly doubt Jodi--even if she has sociopathic traits--would fit into such an extreme category.

I do agree. But Please read my further post about her sexually obsessive behavior dating back to college.

And everyone who gets to know Jodi or has contact with her for more than a superficial relationship has said she is like "a robot. A stepford wife. Nothing is there."

I know it's hard to understand that there are people out there who do not care at all. But let's remember the Boston Marathon: even while ppl were helping the victims, there were also people who found the chaos as an opportunity to loot instead of help. The world is full of these types. And it's frightening.

IMHO

 

[Linda7NJ]

There are many, many people--not just personality disordered people--who would take/tolerate an abusive relationship over no relationship at all. There are many people who have trouble connecting in healthy ways, but who have a need to connect nonetheless. This isn't a good thing--it's sad--but I hardly think this is a point on which we can illustrate how Jodi wildly diverges from the rest of humanity. In this way, unfortunately, she is a dime a dozen.

And, where is the evidence that there is any non-brain bead person on earth who is, like a robot, completely immune to emotional pain? If there are examples of this type of walking, talking, sentient robot with no ability to experience emotional pain, I highly doubt Jodi--even if she has sociopathic traits--would fit into such an extreme category.

A narcissistic injury is devastatingly painful when compared to the way Jodi experiences other emotions.... Which is very dull and muted IMO


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[Linda7NJ]

I do agree. But Please read my further post about her sexually obsessive behavior dating back to college.

And everyone who gets to know Jodi or has contact with her for more than a superficial relationship has said she is like "a robot. A stepford wife. Nothing is there."

I know it's hard to understand that there are people out there who do not care at all. But let's remember the Boston Marathon: even while ppl were helping the victims, there were also people who found the chaos as an opportunity to loot instead of help. The world is full of these types. And it's frightening.

IMHO

And don't forget to include the huge fan base of young girls the living terrorist now has.


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[slanda]

Thanks Slanda. I appreciate the sobering words (as ENTJ it's your talent!)

I guess for me as a borderline, I am just praying that they don't chalk all of her sinister behavior and lack of empathy up to being Borferline PD. in the next trial I really hope that they show/prove that she has heavy sociopathic aspects to give further detail on her illness.

Its like when people equate sociopaths and autistic individuals. Autistic people really take offense to being equated to sociopaths just bc of a lack of empathy (bc autistics have normal emotional IQ).

Borderlines feel the same way. There are many sociopaths that have borderline characteristics and we are constant fighting the stigma that borderline disorder is sociopathic PD.

sure borderlines may have something similar to autistics in the way that they both maintain an functional emotional IQ, but Jodi does not posess this.

I believe molly333 is correct is thinking that Jodi's borderline (as the tests showed) is also very much so like autism, in the way that maybe her emotional IQ is so extremely low and that her cognitive IQ is mid to high that the dissonance creates mass paranoia and snaps with reality or anxiety.

but I honestly think there is some deep sociopathy there as well that hasn't been taken into consideration.

She said she still loves Travis in the interview the other night.

Many times sociopaths will kill off the part of their victim they dislike and retain their positive associations and obsessions with their victim after. I think this is Halle ing with Jodi.

Muah. as anxiety (emotionally) driven as I am, I have a higher competing logical driven component to myself as well. I have a war daily. :/ but I digress...

The foreman said that they "acknowledged" the abuse they believe she suffered. They didn't believe the physical aspects of said abuse. IMO, if they really believed that she was severely mentally deranged they would have voted to convict her of a lesser charge. But they didn't. They still held her accountable for M1. If I may be honest, I would not have voted to execute her, although I could understand why others would.

In all reality, she's not going anywhere. Nor should she.

It's an emotionally charged case. We all have super strong feelings about it -- and that's good because we do have empathy and we all care. <3

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

And to converse further with molly333 assertions, I apologize now for not truly considering fully her views as they are pertinent and brilliant:

As I stated, I did have some autistic like qualities as a child. I was a classical musician by 8 years old. I had a college reading level by the 4th grade. I had disconnects with reality as a child ie) "being in la la land" as my parents said.

However I could not add 5 + 5 and I had issues putting pictures in order during evaluations (where you arrange cards with images in the correct order to form a cohesive story).

I often look back as a borderline now and wonder if I have idiot/savant aspects (hate that term)

And if there is a connection between borderline and autism, could it be a general high left brain functioning with a low right brain functioning? As well as low left and high right?

I've never had issues with low empathy however.
I'm diagnosed ADD along with the BPD.

Furthermore it was found that I retain information better in horizontal forms aka reading, piano keys, left to right activities.

The moment you give me a vertical list or vertical stacking of information, it is increasingly hard for me to compute.

Also, my depth perception is off bc of this. If I look at a lattice panel (chain link fence) the verticle and horizontal and diagonal lines of the fence begin to fade away and I can only see what is behind te fence. It is as if my brain is literally not allowing me to see the fence bc it cannot compute it.

 

[slanda]

And don't forget to include the huge fan base of young girls the living terrorist now has.


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I know. That is absolutely appalling to me.

 

[Emmi]

Thanks Slanda. I appreciate the sobering words (as ENTJ it's your talent!)

I guess for me as a borderline, I am just praying that they don't chalk all of her sinister behavior and lack of empathy up to being Borferline PD. in the next trial I really hope that they show/prove that she has heavy sociopathic aspects to give further detail on her illness.

Its like when people equate sociopaths and autistic individuals. Autistic people really take offense to being equated to sociopaths just bc of a lack of empathy (bc autistics have normal emotional IQ).

Borderlines feel the same way. There are many sociopaths that have borderline characteristics and we are constant fighting the stigma that borderline disorder is sociopathic PD.

sure borderlines may have something similar to autistics in the way that they both maintain an functional emotional IQ, but Jodi does not posess this.

I believe molly333 is correct is thinking that Jodi's borderline (as the tests showed) is also very much so like autism, in the way that maybe her emotional IQ is so extremely low and that her cognitive IQ is mid to high that the dissonance creates mass paranoia and snaps with reality or anxiety.

but I honestly think there is some deep sociopathy there as well that hasn't been taken into consideration.

She said she still loves Travis in the interview the other night.

Many times sociopaths will kill off the part of their victim they dislike and retain their positive associations and obsessions with their victim after. I think this is Happening with Jodi.

All bolding mine.

I can understand why people with borderline personality are concerned. There is a public out there that prefers black and white categories of mental health conditions, and enjoys making sinister associations on incomplete or inaccurate information. It's a nice, easy, no-fuss way to view the world, and it provides certain people with feelings of coziness that they somehow, in being "normal," have dodged a bullet. Unfortunately, when there is a high profile case such as this one, the fight against stigma and misinformation has to be launched once again.

There were quite a few posters on these threads (not just the armchair ones) who disclosed their diagnosis of BPD, and, I could be wrong, but it seems a lot of them had to leave--maybe because fighting the ignorance was too exhausting and upsetting?

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

All bolding mine.

I can understand why people with borderline personality are concerned. There is a public out there that prefers black and white categories of mental health conditions, and enjoys making sinister associations on incomplete or inaccurate information. It's a nice, easy, no-fuss way to view the world, and it provides certain people with feelings of coziness that they somehow, in being "normal," have dodged a bullet. Unfortunately, when there is a high profile case such as this one, the fight against stigma and misinformation has to be launched once again.

There were quite a few posters on these threads (not just the armchair ones) who disclosed their diagnosis of BPD, and, I could be wrong, but it seems a lot of them had to leave--maybe because fighting the ignorance was too exhausting and upsetting?

I don't think any borderlines were hurt or offended. I'm sure they were aware when sharing that they were simply furthering healthy discussion and analysis of symptoms/warning signs. If they did feel strained at all while reading or offended, it was probably best they refrain from the thread.

As a Borderline I have not been offended by anyone here personally. Everyone is more than open here from what I see. I even get sweet private messages from users thanking me for giving them insight into my mental illness, so as a whole it's therapeutic.

Then again, I am the type of person that is open to criticism as well bc it is my chance to correct the criticism/stigma directly with the person and hopefully establish a positive friendship/understanding. I love talking to ppl with different views than myself - it's the only way to truly learn new things/theories about a trial or even human nature in general.

 

[Emmi]

And to converse further with molly333 assertions, I apologize now for not truly considering fully her views as they are pertinent and brilliant:

As I stated, I did have some autistic like qualities as a child. I was a classical musician by 8 years old. I had a college reading level by the 4th grade. I had disconnects with reality as a child ie) "being in la la land" as my parents said.

However I could not add 5 + 5 and I had issues putting pictures in order during evaluations (where you arrange cards with images in the correct order to form a cohesive story).

I often look back as a borderline now and wonder if I have idiot/savant aspects (hate that term)

And if there is a connection between borderline and autism, could it be a general high left brain functioning with a low right brain functioning? As well as low left and high right?

I've never had issues with low empathy however.
Furthermore I'm diagnosed ADD as well.

2Hip, you remind me a lot--at least on paper--of my teen-age daughter. Though her IQ falls within the normal range, the "profile" you're presenting of yourself is similar to hers. High reading/verbal ability, severe math/higher order learning disability, ADD, Asperger's traits, and quite a bit of trouble regulating her emotions.

I'm curious: are you physically clumsy or awkward?

 

[slanda]

I don't think any borderlines were hurt or offended. I'm sure they were aware when sharing that they were simply furthering healthy discussion and analysis of symptoms/warning signs. If they did feel strained at all while reading or offended, it was probably best they refrain from the thread.

As a Borderline I have not been offended by anyone here personally. Everyone is more than open here from what I see. I even get sweet private messages from users thanking me for giving them insight into my mental illness, so as a whole it's therapeutic.

Then again, I am the type of person that is open to criticism as well bc it is my chance to correct the criticism/stigma directly with the person and hopefully establish a positive friendship/understanding. I love talking to ppl with different views than myself - it's the only way to truly learn new things/theories about a trial or even human nature in general.

Which is why I talk very openly about my anxiety and my lovely ex husband. We all have our difficult roads and understanding others' journeys helps us along our way too. :tyou:

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Which is why I talk very openly about my anxiety and my lovely ex husband. We all have our difficult roads and understanding others' journeys helps us along our way too. :tyou:

I'm loving the Love/morale on this thread right now. Let's keep it going!

 

[Emmi]

Not clumsy at all. Have never even broke a bone. Was always confident, but peaceful with my outward projections.

I will say, my fiancée is a choreographer and we constantly laugh at my low functioning "get down and boogie" abilities.

I did theater in school and was able to memorize dance steps and actually helped teach an acting class. I have good control of my mannerisms and being.

That's why I'm confused. Most people with autistic like qualities can't do this. My IQ in Highschool last time I took it was 135. I don't know if this enabled me to overcome the motor skill awkwardness? Human brain is strange!

Tell me more about your daughter please if you don't mind! Maybe we can figure something out here/make the link.

Sure! But now the similarities have ended. My daughter is extremely awkward and clumsy. Trips on her own feet--literally. She does not have that control you have, and thus, is socially inhibited. She would run away from anything having to do with theatre. She's very "aspie" in this regard.

Despite these very inhibited qualities, she is --but ONLY at home--an excellent mimic. When inspired, she can distill the essence of a person's character into a few mannerisms--not just voice and body language, but where that person is "coming from," if you know what I mean--their thoughts and values and political bent. For instance, she can do Nancy Grace, JVM, and other talking heads. She can do our neighbours and family members. Sometimes, needless to say, it's satire. Hilarious.

But, none of this helps her in school, of course! School has been a disaster from day one, and she's needed special education classes (largely normal curriculum, but at a slower pace--and even the adapted math classes have been a supreme struggle for her). Yet, she can correct the teacher's grammar, punctuation and spelling--behind their backs, though, as she does not have that flat-affect, pedantic thing going on--and has a great font of general knowledge about the world that her peers don't.

Sigh. Is this what you wanted me to go on about? Did I mention that she's really hard to live with? There's no other way to say it. Spectacular temper tantrums, followed by shame and regret, and hypersensitivity to smell, sound, texture--which makes her mad as hell when she can't control her environment. Just hard, hard, hard. A counsellor suggested anti-depressants, which we declined. But, I don't know.

Anything familiar here? And how can we tie it to Jodi to stay on topic? Heh.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Despite my placid nature as a small child, I still got into trouble for some rather antisocial behaviors. I also became sexually aware much earlier than my peers. The antisocial behavior mostly around age 5 includes:

Playing alone. Loner behavior. I did make friends, but preferred to be alone.

I launched a rock down a slide so it would hit another student when they walked by it.
--------
I had called a classmate an expletive by kindergarten bc they told me "my daddy is bigger and better than your daddy". Apparently, I did not like that, called her the single expletive, and unemotionally went back to playing with my blocks alone.

She began to cry and as she ran to the teacher I remember thinking, "ok what excuse can you come up with to not get into trouble? You better start crying!"

And out of the fear of being caught, I began to cry and told the teacher the reason I called the student an expletive was because it was something I heard often at home, but didn't know what it meant and that it was that bad.

I knew it was bad. I just didn't want to get caught.

This is that narcissistic element of borderlines that needs to be controlled or else it can spiral into pure sociopathy - if the borderline is so progressed to the point of being able to shut empathy on and off at will, this is a scary thing.

I've luckily been able to retain emotional empathy into adulthood. But it goes to show you how capable a borderline is of faking emotion/stories to get out if trouble.

 

[SMK]

Despite my placid nature as a small child, I still got into trouble for some rather antisocial behaviors. I also became sexually aware much earlier than my peers. The antisocial behavior mostly around age 5 includes:

Playing alone. Loner behavior. I did make friends, but preferred to be alone.

I launched a rock down a slide so it would hit another student when they walked by it.
--------
I had called a classmate an expletive by kindergarten bc they told me "my daddy is bigger and better than your daddy". Apparently, I did not like that, called her the single expletive, and unemotionally went back to playing with my blocks alone.

She began to cry and as she ran to the teacher I remember thinking, "ok what excuse can you come up with to not get into trouble? You better start crying!"

And out of the fear of being caught, I began to cry and told the teacher the reason I called the student an expletive was because it was something I heard often at home, but didn't know what it meant and that it was that bad.

I knew it was bad. I just didn't want to get caught.

This is that narcissistic element of borderlines that needs to be controlled or else it can spiral into pure sociopathy - if the borderline is so progressed to the point of being able to shut empathy on and off at will, this is a scary thing.

I've luckily been able to retain emotional empathy into adulthood. But it goes to show you how capable a borderline is of faking emotion/stories to get out if trouble.

DID you hear it at home, though? Good grief, I behaved like this all the time as a child---I thought such dissembling was normal.:blushing:

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Sure! But now the similarities have ended. My daughter is extremely awkward and clumsy. Trips on her own feet--literally. She does not have that control you have, and thus, is socially inhibited. She would run away from anything having to do with theatre. She's very "aspie" in this regard.

Despite these very inhibited qualities, she is --but ONLY at home--an excellent mimic. When inspired, she can distill the essence of a person's character into a few mannerisms--not just voice and body language, but where that person is "coming from," if you know what I mean--their thoughts and values and political bent. For instance, she can do Nancy Grace, JVM, and other talking heads. She can do our neighbours and family members. Sometimes, needless to say, it's satire. Hilarious.

But, none of this helps her in school, of course! School has been a disaster from day one, and she's needed special education classes (largely normal curriculum, but at a slower pace--and even the adapted math classes have been a supreme struggle for her). Yet, she can correct the teacher's grammar, punctuation and spelling--behind their backs, though, as she does not have that flat-affect, pedantic thing going on--and has a great font of general knowledge about the world that her peers don't.

Sigh. Is this what you wanted me to go on about? Did I mention that she's really hard to live with? There's no other way to say it. Spectacular temper tantrums, followed by shame and regret, and hypersensitivity to smell, sound, texture--which makes her mad as hell when she can't control her environment. Just hard, hard, hard. A counsellor suggested anti-depressants, which we declined. But, I don't know.

Anything familiar here? And how can we tie it to Jodi to stay on topic? Heh.

Most definitely we can tie Jodi to this convo!

I would say that besides the awkwardness you mentioned your daughter experiences, I completely connect with her on everything - especially the hyper sensitivity to smell and senses that also drive me INSANE and in turns drives my loved ones insane for having to deal with my insanity. Know that your daughter needs you and no matter what she says, feels eternally indebted to you for nurturing her through her tougher days.

So what I'm thinking is:

Maybe Aspies are a prime disorder ---> Borderlines are Aspies who have developed better motor/social control ------> and progressed borderlines, gone undiagnosed, can progress further into sociopathic comorbidity with borderline?


That maybe Borderline is the midrange between autism and sociopathy?

Just IMHO!!!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

DID you hear it at home, though? Good grief, I behaved like this all the time as a child---I thought such dissembling was normal.:blushing:

Awesome question!
Yes I heard it at home, but I knew the abuse related to the word. So when I hurled that word at her, I also hurled all the abuse I attributed with the word toward her. I definitely knew the pain that word could cause. That's why I used it.

 

[SMK]

I, for one, care a lot about this.

And since I've just gone on and on about my daughter, I want to share with you what happened last night when I wasn't really watching HLN--it was on mute while I read a book. She walked into the room, saw that they were showing the gurney, with all its restraints, in the death chamber, and she had vocal and physical reaction to it. Just pure horror and disgust.

No, you're not alone ...

Her instincts recoiled rightly.
Thanks for the confirmation. I understand the DP, but I also see that the world is changing, and leaving the US behind......

 

[Emmi]

Most definitely we can tie Jodi to this convo!

I would say that besides the awkwardness you mentioned your daughter experiences, I completely connect with her on everything - especially the hyper sensitivity to smell and senses that also drive me INSANE and in turns drives my loved ones insane for having to deal with my insanity. Know that your daughter needs you and no matter what she says, feels eternally indebted to you for nurturing her through her tougher days.

So what I'm thinking is:

Maybe Aspies are a prime disorder ---> Borderlines are Aspies who have developed better motor/social control ------> and progressed borderlines, gone undiagnosed, can progress further into sociopathic comorbidity with borderline?


That maybe Borderline is the midrange between autism and sociopathy?

Just IMHO!!!

Thanks, 2Hip--I do my best, but don't always give her the support she may need, because of my own hyper-sensitivity and frustration levels. A reminder is always good, though, that she is not actually trying to make me insane!

This is a fascinating theory about the overlap and distinctions between borderline and aspie traits, and about a possible continuum from borderline to sociopathy. But, not being a quick thinker like you are, I need time to absorb it and think about it. Very interesting.