Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[Linda7NJ]

I agree. In her interview with Troy Haden she said you don't have to worry unless you are abusing me and attacking me and threatening to kill my life (paraphrased).

What was interesting to me was "kill my life". That is what TA was doing, killing the life that she planned. She thought she was going to marry him, have his kids etc. She didn't mean try to kill me, she meant exactly what she said.

How about that threatening letter she sent to Ryan Burns?

 

[molly333]

Could be, yes. Texture and self-stimulation. I do think she was anxious in that room, and needed to sooth herself.

Though, I'm like slanda, in that my anxiety wouldn't look this way. Mine would appear in a classic way--inner and outer trembling, muscle stiffness, trouble breathing, pounding heart etc. Not necessarily things that would show up in an obvious way on a low-quality video-tape, but still, my body language would be recognizable.

So, yeah, that headstand was something more than anxiety. Anxiety usually makes one physically inhibited, doesn't it?

I think it illustrates some kind of emotional or cognitive disconnect to the amount of danger she was in. Psychopaths do not feel fear and enjoy risk taking. But, a psychopath would act differently in that situation than Jodi did, I think. He would perceive the danger and at least attempt to maintain the mask and try to look reasonable and innocent. The game would be on.

But Jodi seems clueless. Say cheese? It's like when push comes to shove, she has no idea how to act. It's like she doesn't really have any strong framework for what is expected so it falls apart under stress. At these times her energy is all diverted to self soothing.

Jodi leaves us scratching our heads trying to figure out what is going through hers. Say cheese!

IMO

 

[molly333]

I outlined and did some tables and came up with something very interesting.

I began to notice the more significant factor in Jodi's psychopathy is her wavering between being and independent and dependent personality.

In essence, what is Borderline about her identity is she varies between wanting to be dependent to independent.

I believe this constant back in forth between dependence and independence is what causes much psychosis for her.

I believe one minute she wants to be dependent in order to gain attention but the next independent so she can retain control of her environment solely.

I found also that the higher independent with low empathy personalities are likely to be narcissistic Sociopaths while in contrast people with a lower independent personality with a higher empathy were likely to be dependent, but healthier personalities.

Jodi varies on my chart vertically as her dependence and independence change. But her low empathy remains the same, which set her in the low empathy and high Borderline dependent/independent personality. In general however, on my chart, she lays to the right of my scale indicating narcissism.

So the real issue here is her narcissism clouding her ability to determine if she prefers independent or dependent lifestyles. This lack of determination and pin pointing her lifestyle preference leaves her sitting on the Borderline of being dependent/independent and thus causes psychopathy and dissonance within her mind and relationship dealings. The lack of empathy is inherent from the narcissism and comes out when she discovers that she cannot completely control her partner.

I"m not quite sure what you're talking about with your charts, but it seems what you are suggesting is a fluid personality. Again, with personality disordered people aren't we dealing with rigidity? Certain behaviors are set in stone and very hard to change.

People talk about the chameleon quality of Jodi. What is that? Is it an attempt to hide in plain sight, as a psychopath might do, or a total lack of any inner, strongly developed personality at all. Maybe its primary function is self protection. I found a redheaded octupus in the Baja once and brought him home in a white plastic milk carton. When I got him home, he had turned white! I was horrified until I realized he was protecting himself by changing color to match his environment so the predators wouldn't see him. The intent of the psychopath is to be the predator, not to protect himself from predators. Which is Jodi doing? And, how easily we could confuse the two.

At what age does a child acknowledge his own personality and start pushing back to express himself? Maybe the terrible twos? But, before that, the baby is tied to mother without the inner ego strength to do anything for himself other than mirror her. If he were cognitively smart enough, he might even suppress his own wants and needs to please her.

What is the function of this mirroring? Lovers do it to signal I am with you, on your side, I love you. But, a more primitively developed personality might do it to signal, I am not a threat, don't hurt me, I am just like you.

It also might be related to the wiring of the brain. It reminds me of the echolalia of the autistic.

IMO


ech·o·la·li·a

Noun


1.Meaningless repetition of another person's spoken words as a symptom of psychiatric disorder.

2.Repetition of speech by a child learning to talk.

 

[molly333]

I believe it was because they had just denied her request to fix up, put on makeup: She did the headstand so the blood would rush to her head, making the cheeks and lips flushed, and they eyes, sparkle. Just a thought....

Yes, it could be. That and an effort to self sooth.

But isn't there something off about trying to look your best in a booking photo? Didn't she say it was going to be seen all over the internet?

The threat to her was not that she was about to be booked for murder, but how she might look physically to other people.

What does she say to Flores? Something about, now you will know how shalow I am, but can I go to the bathroom to freshen up before we go over there [to have my picture taken].

Then we see the final product, Jodi surrounded by a group of women who look like they would bite your hand off if you got too close, and a perfectly coiffed Jodi, smiling at us with the serenity of a saint. It worked!

IMO

 

[Gecko100]

Yes, it could be. That and an effort to self sooth.

But isn't there something off about trying to look your best in a booking photo? Didn't she say it was going to be seen all over the internet?

The threat to her was not that she was about to be booked for murder, but how she might look physically to other people.

What does she say to Flores? Something about, now you will know how shalow I am, but can I go to the bathroom to freshen up before we go over there [to have my picture taken].

Then we see the final product, Jodi surrounded by a group of women who look like they would bite your hand off if you got too close, and a perfectly coiffed Jodi, smiling at us with the serenity of a saint. It worked!

IMO

I agree with what you said about the mirroring issues, it was something I mentioned a long while back in connection with both.
Either very wounded numb, or different in some way, but not a psychopath.
She also may have become contextually 'cultured' to self grooming, presentation and appearance seems very important in a specific context.

 

[molly333]

I agree with what you said about the mirroring issues, it was something I mentioned a long while back in connection with both.
Either very wounded numb, or different in some way, but not a psychopath.
She also may have become contextually 'cultured' to self grooming, presentation and appearance seems very important in a specific context.

Yes, it appears shallow, not because she is shallow herself, but because, like you said, the only tool she knows is context.

People laughed about how first she was dressing like JW and then even wearing the same colors. Towards the end, she reminded me very much of my redheaded octupus. The bailiff would yell, All Rise! And, Jodi would stand up, standing closely behind Jennifer, same clothes, same colors, same glasses, blending into the white milk carton.

IMO

 

[Gecko100]

Yes, it appears shallow, not because she is shallow herself, but because, like you said, the only tool she knows is context.

People laughed about how first she was dressing like JW and then even wearing the same colors. Towards the end, she reminded me very much of my redheaded octupus. The bailiff would yell, All Rise! And, Jodi would stand up, standing closely behind Jennifer, same clothes, same colors, same glasses, blending into the white milk carton.

IMO

Yes, and I don't think she is shallow at all. She might be the very opposite of shallow, which could also make her 'stand out' in a very shallow world.
I would turn white too.

 

[OEJ]

I"m not quite sure what you're talking about with your charts, but it seems what you are suggesting is a fluid personality. Again, with personality disordered people aren't we dealing with rigidity? Certain behaviors are set in stone and very hard to change.

People talk about the chameleon quality of Jodi. What is that? Is it an attempt to hide in plain sight, as a psychopath might do, or a total lack of any inner, strongly developed personality at all. Maybe its primary function is self protection. I found a redheaded octupus in the Baja once and brought him home in a white plastic milk carton. When I got him home, he had turned white! I was horrified until I realized he was protecting himself by changing color to match his environment so the predators wouldn't see him. The intent of the psychopath is to be the predator, not to protect himself from predators. Which is Jodi doing? And, how easily we could confuse the two.

At what age does a child acknowledge his own personality and start pushing back to express himself? Maybe the terrible twos? But, before that, the baby is tied to mother without the inner ego strength to do anything for himself other than mirror her. If he were cognitively smart enough, he might even suppress his own wants and needs to please her.

What is the function of this mirroring? Lovers do it to signal I am with you, on your side, I love you. But, a more primitively developed personality might do it to signal, I am not a threat, don't hurt me, I am just like you.

It also might be related to the wiring of the brain. It reminds me of the echolalia of the autistic.

IMO


ech·o·la·li·a

Noun


1.Meaningless repetition of another person's spoken words as a symptom of psychiatric disorder.

2.Repetition of speech by a child learning to talk.

I think the problem in Jodi's case is a feeling of emptiness that can't be assuaged unless she is attached to someone. I think she feels a sense of coming alive when she has an attachment and a feeling of dying or feeling like she has no identity if the attachment is threatened.

 

[Gecko100]

Same here, same here. Aspie traits don't come out of nowhere. My kid most definitely got this from me, I have no doubt. Her sensory issues are mine, but multiplied 5 or 10 times.

I actually don't care much for Penny, myself. She's not my type. And, though we're talking about a fictional character here, I know that the Pennys of the world don't much care for me, either.

There are levels of oddness, and there are some oddities, quirks, that can be better hidden and controlled than others. I am, for instance, both shy/anxious and very friendly and chatty (it's possible, yes), but despite this, I only really make true and satisfying friendships with people who are also odd. Not bizarre, not bad or dishonest, of course, just odd, like the world wasn't quite meant for them.

We know things about ourselves, or can intuit how we may be coming across to people, by their reactions to us. This may seem like an obvious thing to say, but I don't think neural-typicals know this sense of never really knowing how a social exchange is going to unfold--all that uncertainty about whether you're being understood, whether you're understanding, and where the sense of alienation comes from when it does come. Not quite knowing the sources of the social elements that seem to promote disconnection, rather than connection. I think this is especially true if nothing about your oddness really "shows." It's worse actually, because socially, no adjustments are made by the typical person, no judgements are suspended. Not sure if I'm being clear, but that's the best I can do right now.

Yes, I could see Arias passing for normal in this way. And, she did make many mentions of her spaciness and clumsiness and attention deficits. Maybe 2Hip is onto something with the idea of autistic traits bordering on personality disordered traits. Maybe Jodi's social orientation was/is aspie, but she was able to, for whatever reason, handle this without the social anxiety and existential angst that is typical for socially odd people. Maybe because her of her "wiring" or whatever it may be, turning off empathy helped her, at least temporarily, to cope and enjoy social success, at least on the surface. Or, I may be mangling what 2Hip was trying to say ...

Good point, which I was trying to address via Typology. Imagine for instance if she were my type of INTP, we occur in only 1% of the community and that is mostly males. So an INTP woman is going to struggle with acceptance by the wider community because a deeply thinking woman is still not considered the 'norm' in society, by men or women.
Lots of difficulties have arisen in my life because of misunderstandings of who I am.
This can happen particularly if you are introverted, because you are less likely to share your thinking knowing it might be laughed at because you are a woman. Female philosopher types are rare.
I blended ferociously in my younger years, I even knitted and bottled jam and learned to sew, but it was never satisfying for me just a challenge.
I even became a social worker! A typically female job, and before that I tried nursing...
I belong in academia or research not in nurturing and caring, although those qualities are strong too, but less 'attracting' so to speak.
The 'female' caring side of me is an ongoing learned behaviour, and sometimes I'm still not good at it - I know what to do, but forget sometimes because I'm caught in inner thought.
Now I am too old to care very much about blending and do what I like but probably look a bit more than a little eccentric, but nobody cares when you are older. It's a blessed relief at last!
I have felt very 'odd' at times in society and socially anxious, but no-one could ever tell because I look aloof and detached and confident, but I'm not necessarily.

 

[molly333]

I think the problem in Jodi's case is a feeling of emptiness that can't be assuaged unless she is attached to someone. I think she feels a sense of coming alive when she has an attachment and a feeling of dying or feeling like she has no identity if the attachment is threatened.

That's an interesting point. If she is straddling two worlds--the world of the normal and the world of the autistic--you would think she would be happy to be alone, more than not. Yet she was never alone from the time she left home, was she? Didn't she move from one boyfriend to another?

So maybe the man acts as a type of ego armor for her? Another way to make it possible for her to interact with the outside world?

But, except for Daryl, she didn't pick loving and protective men, it seems.

Maybe the emptiness inside, the lack of an integrated personality, is not an issue as long as the external controls are in place. But when this extension of yourself starts rejecting you, it must be tremendously threatening. It must feel like your world is falling apart.

Did she feel that with her family of origin, too?

That May 10th phone call haunts me. How can they sound so much like good friends, like lovers, and three weeks later that horrendous, chaotic crime scene, that really does look like someone just lost their mind? You said a feeling of dying when losing the attachment--maybe she really did feel like her life was threatened.

IMO

 

[Gecko100]

Shhh, it has become very quiet in here, like everyone has had a massive drop in energy, which isn't too surprising since a lot of energy was spent! And you are all having real lives at the week-end. I hope it's a good one for everyone! It's a holiday w/e in the US isn't it?

I'm still a bit concerned that it took five years and five months to process this justice it's a very very long time.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

To be honest.

I think the variables at hand are:

Low self image- dependent Aspects-psychopathic behavior
High self image- avoidant aspects-sociopathic behavior


I think she varies between sociopath and psychopath (both antisocial and marked by lack of empathy) depending on her own self image.

When she is having a (low self image) and (narcissism is low), she is more likely to become (dependent) for her self worth on others and engages in masking (psychopathic behavior). She reads and plans and is more organized.

When she is having (high self image) she runs around almost in a manic wreckless state believing she can do anything (narcissism high), not feeling the need to have a partner that assuages her ego and engaging in (Highly Avoidant Behavior). She would be operating in a (High Sociopathic aspect) - on a fringe from her peers and family (running away to Oregon and growing pot - no job or schooling).

There in lies the key: what effects her self image? What triggers her change in self worth?

 

[molly333]

To be honest.

I think the variables at hand are:

Low self image- dependent Aspects-psychopathic behavior
High self image- avoidant aspects-sociopathic behavior


I think she varies between sociopath and psychopath (both antisocial and marked by lack of empathy) depending on her own self image.

When she is having a (low self image) and (narcissism is low), she is more likely to become (dependent) for her self worth on others and engages in masking (psychopathic behavior). She reads and plans and is more organized.

When she is having (high self image) she runs around almost in a manic wreckless state believing she can do anything (narcissism high), not feeling the need to have a partner that assuages her ego and engaging in (Highly Avoidant Behavior). She would be operating in a (High Sociopathic aspect) - on a fringe from her peers and family (running away to Oregon and growing pot - no job or schooling).

There in lies the key: what effects her self image? What triggers her change in self worth?

Is self image the same as self esteem? Because she scores very low in self esteem over several years. It looks like low self esteem is a constant. Are you talking about something different? You keep mentioning fluctuation, but I can't see that myself. Could you give some examples?




I think this is the key: the vicious verbal attack on JA by TA on May 26. We don't know what could have caused this. Or if it was ever resolved. He says the most hateful things to her, and goes on and on, but we never see her response--except that she says she will be contacting a lawyer.

This fight is the key. It's a turning point. What was it about? And, did Jodi steal the gun two days later to kill him or to protect herself as she went to visit him one last time to try to straighten things out in person? Did she shoot him in cold blooded murder or did she pull it out of her own purse to 'defend' herself? We see the anger he is capable of in that text message.

Why does neither the defense nor the prosecution tell us what this fight is about? Why doesn't Jodi tell us? Did she tell us and I missed it?

Because unless we know what this fight is about, we don't know nothing..

IMO


The Last Argument Between Travis Alexander & Jodi Arias -- Is This What Pushed Her Over The Edge? - YouTube

 

[SMK]

Is self image the same as self esteem? Because she scores very low in self esteem over several years. It looks like low self esteem is a constant. Are you talking about something different? You keep mentioning fluctuation, but I can't see that myself. Could you give some examples?




I think this is the key: the vicious verbal attack on JA by TA on May 26. We don't know what could have caused this. Or if it was ever resolved. He says the most hateful things to her, and goes on and on, but we never see her response--except that she says she will be contacting a lawyer.

This fight is the key. It's a turning point. What was it about? And, did Jodi steal the gun two days later to kill him or to protect herself as she went to visit him one last time to try to straighten things out in person? Did she shoot him in cold blooded murder or did she pull it out of her own purse to 'defend' herself? We see the anger he is capable of in that text message.

Why does neither the defense nor the prosecution tell us what this fight is about? Why doesn't Jodi tell us? Did she tell us and I missed it?

Because unless we know what this fight is about, we don't know nothing..

IMO


The Last Argument Between Travis Alexander & Jodi Arias -- Is This What Pushed Her Over The Edge? - YouTube

I agree.

He was threatening her and she was threatening him.

Was his preemptive or was she only countering his attack?

Who instigated it and why? Who was more frightened or had more to lose?

When he said that she scammed him, did he mean scam? Or blackmail? (he had language lapses, I noticed even in his blog. He is eloquent but sometimes falls short of the correct terminology)

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Is self image the same as self esteem? Because she scores very low in self esteem over several years. It looks like low self esteem is a constant. Are you talking about something different? You keep mentioning fluctuation, but I can't see that myself. Could you give some examples?




I think this is the key: the vicious verbal attack on JA by TA on May 26. We don't know what could have caused this. Or if it was ever resolved. He says the most hateful things to her, and goes on and on, but we never see her response--except that she says she will be contacting a lawyer.

This fight is the key. It's a turning point. What was it about? And, did Jodi steal the gun two days later to kill him or to protect herself as she went to visit him one last time to try to straighten things out in person? Did she shoot him in cold blooded murder or did she pull it out of her own purse to 'defend' herself? We see the anger he is capable of in that text message.

Why does neither the defense nor the prosecution tell us what this fight is about? Why doesn't Jodi tell us? Did she tell us and I missed it?

Because unless we know what this fight is about, we don't know nothing..

IMO


The Last Argument Between Travis Alexander & Jodi Arias -- Is This What Pushed Her Over The Edge? - YouTube

The fact that her whole being is focused around how she views herself is Natcissistic Personality Disorder.

Even with her moments of high self esteem it is false. Narcissist never really feel as great ad they put on. It is a faux arrogance/confidence to cover up the deep lack of a developed personality or empathy.

Narcissists use masks to make themselves look/feel better than they actually are. They also are usually antisocial, or in other terms lack empathy.

They employ antisocial behaviors when they are experiencing stress/anxiety.

A narcissist in the high self image stage is usually utilizing some form of masking in that phase and psychopathic behavior.

A narcissist in a low self image phase is usually psychologically naked and thus their lack of empathy is apparent and they avoid contact with others and rest on the fringe and have Sociopathic behaviors.

Because peoples narcissism affects their self image to such degrees of high and low, she is considered on the border (hence the term borderline) of a dependent narcissist and Avoidant narcissist.

The prime issue is her NPD. It manifests Borderline type highs and lows which in turn create antisocial behavior.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

That's an interesting point. If she is straddling two worlds--the world of the normal and the world of the autistic--you would think she would be happy to be alone, more than not. Yet she was never alone from the time she left home, was she? Didn't she move from one boyfriend to another?

So maybe the man acts as a type of ego armor for her? Another way to make it possible for her to interact with the outside world?

But, except for Daryl, she didn't pick loving and protective men, it seems.

Maybe the emptiness inside, the lack of an integrated personality, is not an issue as long as the external controls are in place. But when this extension of yourself starts rejecting you, it must be tremendously threatening. It must feel like your world is falling apart.

Did she feel that with her family of origin, too?

That May 10th phone call haunts me. How can they sound so much like good friends, like lovers, and three weeks later that horrendous, chaotic crime scene, that really does look like someone just lost their mind? You said a feeling of dying when losing the attachment--maybe she really did feel like her life was threatened.

IMO

They (or Jodi specifically) was able to speak so normally to Travis before murdering him because Psychopaths have the ability to plan out acts with no empathy for their victim. They can fake niceties with the intention of murder. It's why they are so frightening. Especially a narcissistic psychopath.

 

[molly333]

The fact that her whole being is focused around how she views herself is Natcissistic Personality Disorder.

Even with her moments of high self esteem it is false. Narcissist never really feel as great ad they put on. It is a faux arrogance/confidence to cover up the deep lack of a developed personality or empathy.

Narcissists use masks to make themselves look/feel better than they actually are. They also are usually antisocial, or in other terms lack empathy.

They employ antisocial behaviors when they are experiencing stress/anxiety.

A narcissist in the high self image stage is usually utilizing some form of masking in that phase and psychopathic behavior.

A narcissist in a low self image phase is usually psychologically naked and thus their lack of empathy is apparent and they avoid contact with others and rest on the fringe and have Sociopathic behaviors.

Because peoples narcissism affects their self image to such degrees of high and low, she is considered on the border (hence the term borderline) of a dependent narcissist and Avoidant narcissist.

The prime issue is her NPD. It manifests Borderline type highs and lows which in turn create antisocial behavior.

But again, I would think a narcissist would need a lot of narcissistic supply. Are you saying there is an avoidant type that doesn't? I would think they would fall into great depression. Is that what happens?

That last six weeks or so after Jodi moved away, she would have only had her telephone contacts with TA, maybe like the one we heard on May 10 when they both seemed pretty happy with each other. But, is that enough supply for a narcissist? Why wasn't she wildly dating other men?

Even at their best, the relationship between them was never very deep. Jodi strikes me more as an emotional anorexic, someone who can survive on very little emotional food from another, because that certainly seems to be what she got.

IMO

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

But again, I would think a narcissist would need a lot of narcissistic supply. Are you saying there is an avoidant type that doesn't? I would think they would fall into great depression. Is that what happens?

That last six weeks or so after Jodi moved away, she would have only had her telephone contacts with TA, maybe like the one we heard on May 10 when they both seemed pretty happy with each other. But, is that enough supply for a narcissist? Why wasn't she wildly dating other men?

Even at their best, the relationship between them was never very deep. Jodi strikes me more as an emotional anorexic, someone who can survive on very little emotional food from another, because that certainly seems to be what she got.

IMO

The Avoidant narcissist is a narcissist who can no longer mask their deep insecurities bc of stress/anxiety that arise in the Dependant phase.

so they avoid others for the time that they are taking a break from the stress of constantly masking their true fragmented personality. They do not wantthe ppl they are trying to impress to see them in this fragmented stage.

The masking during the dependent phase can cause much mental exhaustion and paranoia. So it is essential for someone who is gifted at masking to be able to take a break and go on mental autopilot, or be Avoidant.

If they spend too much time wearing their dependent mask without taking the Avoidant break, their paranoia and exhaustion might reach the point of paranoid delusion - and that paranoid delusion, coupled with the inherent psychopathic tendencies of the "masked" dependent Narcissist could lead to planned devastation and a need to extinguish the source of her fear/paranoia.

IMHO

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

That last six weeks or so after Jodi moved away, she would have only had her telephone contacts with TA, maybe like the one we heard on May 10 when they both seemed pretty happy with each other. But, is that enough supply for a narcissist? Why wasn't she wildly dating other men?


IMO

During the time she wasn't with Travis before she killed him she WAS meeting up with other men.

Even had the sense to meet up with one or two guys on the way and one guy after she killed Travis to make out.

We ask ourselves why she would go make out with someone while practically still having blood on her hands and the answer is simple:

Attention. More specifically, sexualized attention.

IMHO

 

[Cate49]

Most interesting HIP2! the sub grouping of the narcissist personality. This I did not know. Great posts to both you and Molly. It is new to me that she spoke of contacting a lawyer must have missed that in trial. I believe Jodi may have kept men on back burners while creating new relationships. There was evidence that she exchanged information with another man on return flight from Travis funeral. She may have had other love interests that never came forward because of the trial. Is a narcistic personality one that is developed or can one be born with NPD?