Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[Emmi]

Sounds a lot like my son, who is high functioning autistic. Also schooled in special ed, and can imitate any politician. When he does Obama, people think Obama has come into the room.

That's great, SMK, all that entertainment from your son! Is he still in elementary school or higher? Is he diagnosed? The only diagnosis my daughter has received is for ADHD, Inattentive type, with almost no hyperactivity--what they used to call ADD. And depression. This has never, ever, seemed like the complete or right picture to me.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Thanks, 2Hip--I do my best, but don't always give her the support she may need, because of my own hyper-sensitivity and frustration levels. A reminder is always good, though, that she is not actually trying to make me insane!

This is a fascinating theory about the overlap and distinctions between borderline and aspie traits, and about a possible continuum from borderline to sociopathy. But, not being a quick thinker like you are, I need time to absorb it and think about it. Very interesting.

She has you, you have her. That's all that ultimately matters. And you have a right to feel driven insane. It's exhausting to deal with I'm sure.

And I feel as if borderline in relation to Autism and Sociopathy could be understood as an actual midrange or line or border between the two.

And if Borderline is the mid range, is that because they are less socially awkward than autistic/aspie but more socially empathetic than the sociopath?

If so, then Jodi definitely may vary on a continuum between Borferline and sociopathy.

 

[Linda7NJ]

All bolding mine.

I can understand why people with borderline personality are concerned. There is a public out there that prefers black and white categories of mental health conditions, and enjoys making sinister associations on incomplete or inaccurate information. It's a nice, easy, no-fuss way to view the world, and it provides certain people with feelings of coziness that they somehow, in being "normal," have dodged a bullet. Unfortunately, when there is a high profile case such as this one, the fight against stigma and misinformation has to be launched once again.

There were quite a few posters on these threads (not just the armchair ones) who disclosed their diagnosis of BPD, and, I could be wrong, but it seems a lot of them had to leave--maybe because fighting the ignorance was too exhausting and upsetting?

That's why I prefer the label of. "psychopath". That describes her perfectly. It's just a shame that in the USA is more interested in money than a very real documented pathology that best describes Jodi. It shouldn't ever be about insurance companies and pharmacies and money. I feel the DSM has turned into more of a billing bible. $$$$$

All IMO

 

[SMK]

That's great, SMK, all that entertainment from your son! Is he still in elementary school or higher? Is he diagnosed? The only diagnosis my daughter has received is for ADHD, Inattentive type, with almost no hyperactivity--what they used to call ADD. And depression. This has never, ever, seemed like the complete or right picture to me.

Yes, he was diagnosed at age 6. He is now 25 years old (hard for me to believe )

No, it does not sound as though you have a complete picture.

Actually, though, my son does not fit in completely with the Aspberger diagnosis in many ways. I suppose diagnostics is not my thing: Labels are a guide, but can leave gaping holes: There are so many "Aspie" traits which my son simply does not have. (of course he DOES display about 70% of them)

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sure! But now the similarities have ended. My daughter is extremely awkward and clumsy. Trips on her own feet--literally. She does not have that control you have, and thus, is socially inhibited. She would run away from anything having to do with theatre. She's very "aspie" in this regard.

Despite these very inhibited qualities, she is --but ONLY at home--an excellent mimic. When inspired, she can distill the essence of a person's character into a few mannerisms--not just voice and body language, but where that person is "coming from," if you know what I mean--their thoughts and values and political bent. For instance, she can do Nancy Grace, JVM, and other talking heads. She can do our neighbours and family members. Sometimes, needless to say, it's satire. Hilarious.

But, none of this helps her in school, of course! School has been a disaster from day one, and she's needed special education classes (largely normal curriculum, but at a slower pace--and even the adapted math classes have been a supreme struggle for her). Yet, she can correct the teacher's grammar, punctuation and spelling--behind their backs, though, as she does not have that flat-affect, pedantic thing going on--and has a great font of general knowledge about the world that her peers don't.

Sigh. Is this what you wanted me to go on about? Did I mention that she's really hard to live with? There's no other way to say it. Spectacular temper tantrums, followed by shame and regret, and hypersensitivity to smell, sound, texture--which makes her mad as hell when she can't control her environment. Just hard, hard, hard. A counsellor suggested anti-depressants, which we declined. But, I don't know.

Anything familiar here? And how can we tie it to Jodi to stay on topic? Heh.

Tie it to Jodi with the whole carpet being the reason she stood on her head. Is that about texture?

 

[Emmi]

Yes, he was diagnosed at age 6. He is now 25 years old (hard for me to believe )

No, it does not sound as though you have a complete picture.

Actually, though, my son does not fit in completely with the Aspberger diagnosis in many ways. I suppose diagnostics is not my thing: Labels are a guide, but can leave gaping holes: There are so many "Aspie" traits which my son simply does not have. (of course he DOES display about 70% of them)

Well, that's the trouble with labels. Some people feel relieved by them, because that can provide some answers, and a guide, but they can also be misleading, and objectifying, which can put the person's well-being at risk. No matter what, there is always heterogeneity, even under the same diagnostic category. Not sure if this link was ever posted here--some social commentary from a writer diagnosed with BPD:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...ersonality-disorder-empathy-simon-baron-cohen

Does your son, now 25 (I know, it goes so fast! I wish I could still read picture books with my daughter ...they are still on the bookshelf), still like to entertain others with his impressions of politicians?

 

[SMK]

Well, that's the trouble with labels. Some people feel relieved by them, because that can provide some answers, and a guide, but they can also be misleading, and objectifying, which can put the person's well-being at risk. No matter what, there is always heterogeneity, even under the same diagnostic category. Not sure if this link was ever posted here--some social commentary from a writer diagnosed with BPD:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...ersonality-disorder-empathy-simon-baron-cohen

Does your son, now 25 (I know, it goes so fast! I wish I could still read picture books with my daughter ...they are still on the bookshelf), still like to entertain others with his impressions of politicians?

Yes, he does. He is very sweet, too---sort of a Sheldon Cooper type (if you happen to watch Big Bang Theory).....

 

[Emmi]

Yes, he does. He is very sweet, too---sort of a Sheldon Cooper type (if you happen to watch Big Bang Theory).....

Oh, that's very sweet, indeed! We love to watch Big Bang, especially for Sheldon, so we can marvel at his perfectly and effortlessly constructed sentences and also with his many anxieties. Interesting, too, that my daughter identifies with him, and not at ALL with the girl character, Penny. Penny is there, in the situation, to represent the "normal" everyday person the audience is supposed to identify with. Ha!

 

[SMK]

Oh, that's very sweet, indeed! We love to watch Big Bang, especially for Sheldon, so we can marvel at his perfectly and effortlessly constructed sentences and also with his many anxieties. Interesting, too, that my daughter identifies with him, and not at ALL with the girl character, Penny. Penny is there, in the situation, to represent the "normal" everyday person the audience is supposed to identify with. Ha!

Ha, yes - to tell you the truth, I myself identify more with Sheldon than with Penny. I think my son is a bit more kind and emotionally inclined than Sheldon, but he presents and speaks very much like him. One thought about Arias RE Aspberger: Some neural atypicals, such as "Aspies", get through life "passing for normal", but the cracks give them away. IF Arias were one of these, it would explain a lot.....I myself feel I have some Aspie traits and have "passed" all my life-- although there is nothing hurtful or dangerous to others in me.....

 

[Emmi]

Ha, yes - to tell you the truth, I myself identify more with Sheldon than with Penny. I think my son is a bit more kind and emotionally inclined than Sheldon, but he presents and speaks very much like him. One thought about Arias RE Aspberger: Some neural atypicals, such as "Aspies", get through life "passing for normal", but the cracks give them away. IF Arias were one of these, it would explain a lot.....I myself feel I have some Aspie traits and have "passed" all my life-- although there is nothing hurtful or dangerous to others in me.....

Same here, same here. Aspie traits don't come out of nowhere. My kid most definitely got this from me, I have no doubt. Her sensory issues are mine, but multiplied 5 or 10 times.

I actually don't care much for Penny, myself. She's not my type. And, though we're talking about a fictional character here, I know that the Pennys of the world don't much care for me, either.

There are levels of oddness, and there are some oddities, quirks, that can be better hidden and controlled than others. I am, for instance, both shy/anxious and very friendly and chatty (it's possible, yes), but despite this, I only really make true and satisfying friendships with people who are also odd. Not bizarre, not bad or dishonest, of course, just odd, like the world wasn't quite meant for them.

We know things about ourselves, or can intuit how we may be coming across to people, by their reactions to us. This may seem like an obvious thing to say, but I don't think neural-typicals know this sense of never really knowing how a social exchange is going to unfold--all that uncertainty about whether you're being understood, whether you're understanding, and where the sense of alienation comes from when it does come. Not quite knowing the sources of the social elements that seem to promote disconnection, rather than connection. I think this is especially true if nothing about your oddness really "shows." It's worse actually, because socially, no adjustments are made by the typical person, no judgements are suspended. Not sure if I'm being clear, but that's the best I can do right now.

Yes, I could see Arias passing for normal in this way. And, she did make many mentions of her spaciness and clumsiness and attention deficits. Maybe 2Hip is onto something with the idea of autistic traits bordering on personality disordered traits. Maybe Jodi's social orientation was/is aspie, but she was able to, for whatever reason, handle this without the social anxiety and existential angst that is typical for socially odd people. Maybe because her of her "wiring" or whatever it may be, turning off empathy helped her, at least temporarily, to cope and enjoy social success, at least on the surface. Or, I may be mangling what 2Hip was trying to say ...

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I outlined and did some tables and came up with something very interesting.

I began to notice the more significant factor in Jodi's psychopathy is her wavering between being and independent and dependent personality.

In essence, what is Borderline about her identity is she varies between wanting to be dependent to independent.

I believe this constant back in forth between dependence and independence is what causes much psychosis for her.

I believe one minute she wants to be dependent in order to gain attention but the next independent so she can retain control of her environment solely.

I found also that the higher independent with low empathy personalities are likely to be narcissistic Sociopaths while in contrast people with a lower independent personality with a higher empathy were likely to be dependent, but healthier personalities.

Jodi varies on my chart vertically as her dependence and independence change. But her low empathy remains the same, which set her in the low empathy and high Borderline dependent/independent personality. In general however, on my chart, she lays to the right of my scale indicating narcissism.

So the real issue here is her narcissism clouding her ability to determine if she prefers independent or dependent lifestyles. This lack of determination and pin pointing her lifestyle preference leaves her sitting on the Borderline of being dependent/independent and thus causes psychopathy and dissonance within her mind and relationship dealings. The lack of empathy is inherent from the narcissism and comes out when she discovers that she cannot completely control her partner.

 

[Emmi]

Tie it to Jodi with the whole carpet being the reason she stood on her head. Is that about texture?

Could be, yes. Texture and self-stimulation. I do think she was anxious in that room, and needed to sooth herself.

Though, I'm like slanda, in that my anxiety wouldn't look this way. Mine would appear in a classic way--inner and outer trembling, muscle stiffness, trouble breathing, pounding heart etc. Not necessarily things that would show up in an obvious way on a low-quality video-tape, but still, my body language would be recognizable.

So, yeah, that headstand was something more than anxiety. Anxiety usually makes one physically inhibited, doesn't it?

 

[SMK]

Could be, yes. Texture and self-stimulation. I do think she was anxious in that room, and needed to sooth herself.

Though, I'm like slanda, in that my anxiety wouldn't look this way. Mine would appear in a classic way--inner and outer trembling, muscle stiffness, trouble breathing, pounding heart etc. Not necessarily things that would show up in an obvious way on a low-quality video-tape, but still, my body language would be recognizable.

So, yeah, that headstand was something more than anxiety. Anxiety usually makes one physically inhibited, doesn't it?

I believe it was because they had just denied her request to fix up, put on makeup: She did the headstand so the blood would rush to her head, making the cheeks and lips flushed, and they eyes, sparkle. Just a thought....

 

[SMK]

Same here, same here. Aspie traits don't come out of nowhere. My kid most definitely got this from me, I have no doubt. Her sensory issues are mine, but multiplied 5 or 10 times.

I actually don't care much for Penny, myself. She's not my type. And, though we're talking about a fictional character here, I know that the Pennys of the world don't much care for me, either.

There are levels of oddness, and there are some oddities, quirks, that can be better hidden and controlled than others. I am, for instance, both shy/anxious and very friendly and chatty (it's possible, yes), but despite this, I only really make true and satisfying friendships with people who are also odd. Not bizarre, not bad or dishonest, of course, just odd, like the world wasn't quite meant for them.

We know things about ourselves, or can intuit how we may be coming across to people, by their reactions to us. This may seem like an obvious thing to say, but I don't think neural-typicals know this sense of never really knowing how a social exchange is going to unfold--all that uncertainty about whether you're being understood, whether you're understanding, and where the sense of alienation comes from when it does come. Not quite knowing the sources of the social elements that seem to promote disconnection, rather than connection. I think this is especially true if nothing about your oddness really "shows." It's worse actually, because socially, no adjustments are made by the typical person, no judgements are suspended. Not sure if I'm being clear, but that's the best I can do right now.

Yes, I could see Arias passing for normal in this way. And, she did make many mentions of her spaciness and clumsiness and attention deficits. Maybe 2Hip is onto something with the idea of autistic traits bordering on personality disordered traits. Maybe Jodi's social orientation was/is aspie, but she was able to, for whatever reason, handle this without the social anxiety and existential angst that is typical for socially odd people. Maybe because her of her "wiring" or whatever it may be, turning off empathy helped her, at least temporarily, to cope and enjoy social success, at least on the surface. Or, I may be mangling what 2Hip was trying to say ...

No, I don't think you're mangling it---all in all, very well said.

 

[Emmi]

I believe it was because they had just denied her request to fix up, put on makeup: She did the headstand so the blood would rush to her head, making the cheeks and lips flushed, and they eyes, sparkle. Just a thought....

Never thought of that! Like girls in the movies pinching and slapping their cheeks, and roughly rubbing their lips, before they meet the boy. That could be it, SMK.

Ah, there are so many possible motivations for behaviour we don't understand!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Wow! During her interview with Florez that I'm watching now, Jodi said when she went to visit Travis that day she brought him a disk of pictures to open up on his computer,

And that the computer had a virus and bugs all over the screen and he was frusterated.

I also remember Deanna Reid saying she walked in on Jodi in Travis's house alone and on Travis's computer.

Travis said to Jodi "you've scammed me".

I've often wondered if she indeed did invade his bank accounts via his computer OR completely bugged his computer up so it would ruin any of his data/journals/memories.

I just thought its interesting. His computer is totally bugged up and filled with viruses and she was in his home sometimes on the computer without Travis around.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

maybe she was going there to make sure his computer was screwed up and try to convince him to not press charges on her for whatever litigation was about to be taken (assuming if lawyers start coming into the convo, charges might be pressed on Travis's part)

They were talking about hiring lawyers in their last text messages.

I have a hard time believing this is just about jealousy.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

One last thing...

Do you remember all those female school teacher that skated pedophilia charges bc they were Borderline?

Pedophilia with women often happens in BPD..

I find it strange that Jodi moved in with Darryl, a man with a child. I know it's morbid, but there may be more to that situation than meet the eye.

She met with Darryl on her way to kill Travis. Also the man at the rental car company said there was a man that day with Jodi when she rented the car.

Did they ever find out who that man was?

I would hate to think that Travis saw some pictures that Jodi accidentally uploaded to his computer. Maybe pictures of Darryl Brewers child in a sexualized nature? Maybe she was trying to blame it on Darryl when explaining it to Travis?

Could Travis have found these and threatened to go to the cops?

Whatever it was Travis found, it was enough for Jodi to go steal the gun from her grandparents house days later.

I would interrogate Darryl much closer. Something smells off about that guy. He was going to testify for Jodi, but couldn't out of fear of being targeted.

All a theory imhoo

 

[Linda7NJ]

maybe she was going there to make sure his computer was screwed up and try to convince him to not press charges on her for whatever litigation was about to be taken (assuming if lawyers start coming into the convo, charges might be pressed on Travis's part)

They were talking about hiring lawyers in their last text messages.

I have a hard time believing this is just about jealousy.

IMO he needed to pay for the things he said to her, not visiting her....it was more about him not wanting her to marry and less about being jealous of someone else.

I do think she wasn't finished, she had another to send to their early grave.

 

[Mare10]

IMO he needed to pay for the things he said to her, not visiting her....it was more about him not wanting her to marry and less about being jealous of someone else.

I do think she wasn't finished, she had another to send to their early grave.

I agree. In her interview with Troy Haden she said you don't have to worry unless you are abusing me and attacking me and threatening to kill my life (paraphrased).

What was interesting to me was "kill my life". That is what TA was doing, killing the life that she planned. She thought she was going to marry him, have his kids etc. She didn't mean try to kill me, she meant exactly what she said.