Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[SMK]

To Gecko as well...




Please refer these kind of general convos for PMs. They are not specifically discussing Jodi, but rather views on social science. Not to be rude. I just can't stand it when ppl get off topic and it tends to happen more often than is necessary on this thread. It's very easy to start going down the rabbit hole when discussing psychological profile and theory.

If you have issues with the US social structure or justice system, this is not the place to speak of that.

Thank you.

I think I was bringing in this stuff because I thought it was an opportunity (within the context of the Arias case) to get people thinking. Truthfully, I do not believe anyone would go to a separate thread about the social structure or criminal justice system, outside of the context of a case.

 

[SMK]

I don't think anyone here took the position that bad parenting directly causes people to commit murder. Many people, though, see abusive or uninformed parenting--rather than in-born, untreatable psychopathy--as one very important element in this metaphor of a "perfect storm."

I agree. I think there is a desperation on the part of some of us who went through very difficult childhoods to educate people about the extreme responsibility of parenting - using Arias as a framework.

It would be a far better world if nature made an occasional mistake with brain wiring, rather than being filled with millions of families in which the parents truly have no idea of what they are creating for the future.....

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think anyone here took the position that bad parenting directly causes people to commit murder. Many people, though, see abusive or uninformed parenting--rather than in-born, untreatable psychopathy--as one very important element in this metaphor of a "perfect storm."

The topic is Jodi. Jodi was not abused IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Linda7NJ]

I agree. I think there is a desperation on the part of some of us who went through very difficult childhoods to educate people about the extreme responsibility of parenting - using Arias as a framework.

It would be a far better world if nature made an occasional mistake with brain wiring, rather than being filled with millions of families in which the parents truly have no idea of what they are creating for the future.....

I think it's two separate issues.

Jodi wasn't abused. I do believe she thinks she was ...as soon as anyone attempted to hold her accountable, put limits or expectations on her and told her "no". ... I also believe the children born after her took attention away from her... And she felt that was abusive too. All IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[shelley921]

I do not understand? Has anyone said that these monsters do not need to be locked up and kept away from society? I have not read that, although I admit I have not read everything.

What I am talking about and some others, is the fact that babies are innocents. It is the adults in their lives that affect what happens. Even babies who are sick a lot may end up having issues with attachment.

Why do some of us care? Because we want people to become better parents. We want people to become better human beings.

The research is out there. It has even been listed on here. Some of it cannot be replicated because we are not that cruel and ignorant anymore. Think of the orphanage studies, although we have plenty of info from Romanian orphanages.

I believe the study with Harlow's monkeys still stands. And their have been references to Maslow's theories and the others who are so famous. I cannot remember her name right now, but Margaret Mead's daughter did excellent research on attachment. Her name is Catherine Bateson.

Then there is the recent man who is a scientist and should be a sociopath, but for the love he got. i forget his name, but he did brain scans,.

If we cannot raise healthy children, we might as well call it a day.

I would love to see any people who were raised in loving homes that turned into psycho killers. For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life. I guarantee 100%, unless they had something like the Unabomber who was kept from his mother while hospitalized.

That may have been able to be repaired, but people did not know at the time how damaging that could be.

Just because we have sympathy for people who were raised in hell does not mean that we feel they should be running loose.

I think that has been said over and over again, but I will say it one more time

like you i agree that if we can't raise healthy children we might as well call it a day...

but i don't agree that " For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life..."

this 19 year old --an only child--Brian B. in the UK killed his parents and I think the story goes that he was not abused or neglected..maybe he was doted upon...?
he was a good student, well thought of and on the surface it appears that he had a good upbringing - but who really knows what went on in his home ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ve-my-parents-died-so-easily-said-killer.html

Real Crime: Killed By A Perfect Son Part 1 - YouTube


Brian Blackwell (born 1986) is an English murderer. He killed his parents - 72-year-old Brian and 61-year-old Jacqueline - at their home in Melling, a village in the northern suburbs of Liverpool, England, on 25 July 2004. Medical experts have since diagnosed Blackwell as having narcissistic personality disorder, which is characterised by extreme feelings of self-importance, a high need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.
Blackwell was described as an "exemplary student" at Liverpool College and nicknamed "Brains" by his family. He created a web of lies about his life, including claiming he was a professional tennis player. To support his claims of wealth, he applied for thirteen credit cards in his father's name. He killed his parents after they became suspicious about his increasingly lavish lifestyle and began asking him questions about it.[1] He beat both with a claw hammer and stabbed them repeatedly. After the killings, he took his girlfriend Amal on holiday to New York, USA, where he spent £30,000, including the bill for a three night stay in thepresidential suite at the Plaza Hotel. A week later he returned to school and found that he had earned As in all of his A-levels, which would have gained him a place at the University of Nottingham to study medicine in October. However, the decomposing bodies of his parents were found in September. The attacks were so severe that investigators initially thought the couple had been shot.
During an interview, Blackwell claimed he knew nothing of his parents' deaths and was on holiday when they were murdered. After two days of questioning, Blackwell's story began to change. He confessed to the murders and claimed that he had acted in self-defence. According to Blackwell, he was holding a claw hammer for hanging a picture on the wall when his father stood up to hit him. Investigators had previously learned that Blackwell's father had been struck on the back of the head while sitting down, which conflicts with Blackwell's claim of self-defence. Afterwards, according to Blackwell, his mother came in, and he attacked her.
Blackwell was charged with murder and was due to stand trial; however, that charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility after experts diagnosed him to have narcissistic personality disorder. An episode of narcissistic rage can occur when the narcissist is perceivably being prevented from accomplishing his grandiose fantasies.[2] Blackwell was sentenced to life imprisonment on 29 June 2005. This was the first case in an English court in which narcissistic personality disorder had been found to be a defence to murder. [ wikipedia]

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Here you go .. the Brian Blackwell discussed above was one of the worst narcissists ever tested: http://youtu.be/SG4c97xXx84?t=25m29s

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I do not understand? Has anyone said that these monsters do not need to be locked up and kept away from society? I have not read that, although I admit I have not read everything.

What I am talking about and some others, is the fact that babies are innocents. It is the adults in their lives that affect what happens. Even babies who are sick a lot may end up having issues with attachment.

Why do some of us care? Because we want people to become better parents. We want people to become better human beings.

The research is out there. It has even been listed on here. Some of it cannot be replicated because we are not that cruel and ignorant anymore. Think of the orphanage studies, although we have plenty of info from Romanian orphanages.

I believe the study with Harlow's monkeys still stands. And their have been references to Maslow's theories and the others who are so famous. I cannot remember her name right now, but Margaret Mead's daughter did excellent research on attachment. Her name is Catherine Bateson.

Then there is the recent man who is a scientist and should be a sociopath, but for the love he got. i forget his name, but he did brain scans,.

If we cannot raise healthy children, we might as well call it a day.

I would love to see any people who were raised in loving homes that turned into psycho killers. For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life. I guarantee 100%, unless they had something like the Unabomber who was kept from his mother while hospitalized.

That may have been able to be repaired, but people did not know at the time how damaging that could be.

Just because we have sympathy for people who were raised in hell does not mean that we feel they should be running loose.

I think that has been said over and over again, but I will say it one more time

Sorry, but research does not support these claims.

 

[TorisMom003]

What exactly does "babies are innocents" mean?

 

[human]

I will respond on the babies are innocents, but I have to tell you, I am more than awestruck by this.

People actually believe that a tiny baby is evil?

I can refer to studies that talk about difficult babies. But it does not matter what studies people site because it appears that people see what they want to see and disregard the rest.

If one reads the studies by Catherine Bateson who studied mothers and infants "talking" with each other and what happened when the mother did not follow the cues.

We do not know if Jodi was abused because we have no information except for that which we can guess, just like those who guess she was not.

The only interest to me of what Jodi is because I want us to learn from it and not repeat those errors.

People learned a lot from orphanage studies.

People learned about not having bright lights and noise for preemies,

We learn a lot about being better and better.

But saying a baby is born evil, that astounds me and probably any person who works with children and parents.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I think it's two separate issues.

Jodi wasn't abused. I do believe she thinks she was ...as soon as anyone attempted to hold her accountable, put limits or expectations on her and told her "no". ... I also believe the children born after her took attention away from her... And she felt that was abusive too. All IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed! To a narcissist/borderline Psychopathic type of personality - the word "no" or phrase "you don't get to have that" are cruel and unusual punishment...

She possibly could have resorted to hitting her mother when she couldn't get what she wanted.

It seems like whenever anyone won't give her what she Obsessively wants, she gets violent. (Travis) (Jodi's mom)

IMHO

You know abuse has to start somewhere.... The cycle I mean. It always has that starting point. I'm convinced people like Jodi really are those who tip that first domino in the domestic effect of abuse. Because Jodi killed Travis, his siblings are going to have to live with PTSD and severe phonias/depression. They will not be able to have as meaningful relationships with their heirs as they wish bc they have been psychologically raped by Jodi Arias. This might begin the process of emotional neglect (which btw was already there for them as evident in the abuse they endured through childhood)...

Travis wanted to stop that cycle in his family. He wanted to teach his siblings proper coping mechanisms.... To stop smoking, drinking, using non green products. They were all beginning to pull their lives together and confront their past/move on.

Jodi ruined that hope to move on for them.

I believe they are strong enough to overcome their PTSD/phobias/depression in time. I have to believe that for them. That's what Travis would want z

 

[Linda7NJ]

I will respond on the babies are innocents, but I have to tell you, I am more than awestruck by this.

People actually believe that a tiny baby is evil?

I can refer to studies that talk about difficult babies. But it does not matter what studies people site because it appears that people see what they want to see and disregard the rest.

If one reads the studies by Catherine Bateson who studied mothers and infants "talking" with each other and what happened when the mother did not follow the cues.

We do not know if Jodi was abused because we have no information except for that which we can guess, just like those who guess she was not.

The only interest to me of what Jodi is because I want us to learn from it and not repeat those errors.

People learned a lot from orphanage studies.

People learned about not having bright lights and noise for preemies,

We learn a lot about being better and better.

But saying a baby is born evil, that astounds me and probably any person who works with children and parents.

I never said evil, but I won't split hairs.

I said sometimes babies are born DEFECTIVE, and I stand by that...
There's science to back it up... I've posted countless links.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

The idea that psychopaths are born, not made, that they arrive into the world as not-quite-human, and that they, these biological defectives, at the same time, CHOOSE to behave in anti-social ways--because, despite having broken brains, they are fully sane--and, thus, are subject to punishments designed to torture the sane ... this very mixed-up idea is the thing that is broken, that is not sane. It is uncivilized and distasteful.

Worse yet, is justifying the idea of destroying, euthanizing, "putting to sleep" human defectives by calling such an action "humane," and using the latest in brain science to back up and sanitize such a revolting position. This is, to my mind, akin to a justification for ethnic cleansing. So I, for one, don't CARE what the science said then, or what it says now, if it is employed as a mask to cover such glib bloody-mindedness.

True but yet on the other hand, there are countless people who want to blame the parents (the "nurture" side of the argument/theory) and that is equally wrong as well.
It is a complicated issue.
Personality Disorders may be caused by either "nature" (genetic) or "nurture" (upbringing/issues).
Parents tend to get blamed as a scapegoat which is not always the case.

 

[Cate49]

If any of us new all the answers to human behavior we would cease to be human. To assume that one has all answers speaks volumes to the short comings within our own fragile egos. Many that post here are far more knowledge than I. I am a beginning student at the end of life class room.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I will respond on the babies are innocents, but I have to tell you, I am more than awestruck by this.

People actually believe that a tiny baby is evil?

I can refer to studies that talk about difficult babies. But it does not matter what studies people site because it appears that people see what they want to see and disregard the rest.

If one reads the studies by Catherine Bateson who studied mothers and infants "talking" with each other and what happened when the mother did not follow the cues.

We do not know if Jodi was abused because we have no information except for that which we can guess, just like those who guess she was not.

The only interest to me of what Jodi is because I want us to learn from it and not repeat those errors.

People learned a lot from orphanage studies.

People learned about not having bright lights and noise for preemies,

We learn a lot about being better and better.

But saying a baby is born evil, that astounds me and probably any person who works with children and parents.

It's not the studies that are necessarily problematic, it's the conclusions that are drawn. Many of those studies are archaic or do not have anything to do with brain chemistry and genetics. I don't think anyone said a baby is evil, only that there is a nature/genetic side to things that can't be overcome by the environment.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

True but yet on the other hand, there are countless people who want to blame the parents (the "nurture" side of the argument/theory) and that is equally wrong as well.
It is a complicated issue.
Personality Disorders may be caused by either "nature" (genetic) or "nurture" (upbringing/issues).
Parents tend to get blamed as a scapegoat which is not always the case.

I agree.

Nature, Nurture, or Fate. All depending on the individual.

 

[TorisMom003]

I will respond on the babies are innocents, but I have to tell you, I am more than awestruck by this.

People actually believe that a tiny baby is evil?

I can refer to studies that talk about difficult babies. But it does not matter what studies people site because it appears that people see what they want to see and disregard the rest.

If one reads the studies by Catherine Bateson who studied mothers and infants "talking" with each other and what happened when the mother did not follow the cues.

We do not know if Jodi was abused because we have no information except for that which we can guess, just like those who guess she was not.

The only interest to me of what Jodi is because I want us to learn from it and not repeat those errors.

People learned a lot from orphanage studies.

People learned about not having bright lights and noise for preemies,

We learn a lot about being better and better.

But saying a baby is born evil, that astounds me and probably any person who works with children and parents.

Unfortunately children/babies are not born a blank slate as some folks would like to believe. They are born hard wire already with some characteristics that they have inherited from their parents and past generations. Can parents/others help the child to not behave the way that is already hard wired for them to behave, yes. However it does not change the fact that those traits are still there.

One only needs to study a child that has not been raised by their parent to see if the child does in fact behave the way the parent that didn't raise them behaves. So unfortunately yes, evil can be born. That also doesn't mean that will turn out to be evil later on in life but they can have the propensity for evil in them and it is up to the people raising them and then the child itself later on to teach them the better way to be.

Then there are those that simply embrace the evil that is inside of them. Those that enjoy knowing they care for no one and no thing other than themselves. Those that can kill without blinking an eye and even enjoy it.

Jodi is the type that embraces her evil. Jodi is the type that will kill again if given the chance. Proof of that is her being arrested with a 9mm gun under the hood of the rental car and kniveS being in boxes in the trunk. Who was she on her way to kill then? Who did Jodi feel had "abused" her or "done her wrong"?

MOO

 

[SMK]

like you i agree that if we can't raise healthy children we might as well call it a day...

but i don't agree that " For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life..."

this 19 year old --an only child--Brian B. in the UK killed his parents and I think the story goes that he was not abused or neglected..maybe he was doted upon...?
he was a good student, well thought of and on the surface it appears that he had a good upbringing - but who really knows what went on in his home ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ve-my-parents-died-so-easily-said-killer.html

Real Crime: Killed By A Perfect Son Part 1 - YouTube


Brian Blackwell (born 1986) is an English murderer. He killed his parents - 72-year-old Brian and 61-year-old Jacqueline - at their home in Melling, a village in the northern suburbs of Liverpool, England, on 25 July 2004. Medical experts have since diagnosed Blackwell as having narcissistic personality disorder, which is characterised by extreme feelings of self-importance, a high need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.
Blackwell was described as an "exemplary student" at Liverpool College and nicknamed "Brains" by his family. He created a web of lies about his life, including claiming he was a professional tennis player. To support his claims of wealth, he applied for thirteen credit cards in his father's name. He killed his parents after they became suspicious about his increasingly lavish lifestyle and began asking him questions about it.[1] He beat both with a claw hammer and stabbed them repeatedly. After the killings, he took his girlfriend Amal on holiday to New York, USA, where he spent £30,000, including the bill for a three night stay in thepresidential suite at the Plaza Hotel. A week later he returned to school and found that he had earned As in all of his A-levels, which would have gained him a place at the University of Nottingham to study medicine in October. However, the decomposing bodies of his parents were found in September. The attacks were so severe that investigators initially thought the couple had been shot.
During an interview, Blackwell claimed he knew nothing of his parents' deaths and was on holiday when they were murdered. After two days of questioning, Blackwell's story began to change. He confessed to the murders and claimed that he had acted in self-defence. According to Blackwell, he was holding a claw hammer for hanging a picture on the wall when his father stood up to hit him. Investigators had previously learned that Blackwell's father had been struck on the back of the head while sitting down, which conflicts with Blackwell's claim of self-defence. Afterwards, according to Blackwell, his mother came in, and he attacked her.
Blackwell was charged with murder and was due to stand trial; however, that charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility after experts diagnosed him to have narcissistic personality disorder. An episode of narcissistic rage can occur when the narcissist is perceivably being prevented from accomplishing his grandiose fantasies.[2] Blackwell was sentenced to life imprisonment on 29 June 2005. This was the first case in an English court in which narcissistic personality disorder had been found to be a defence to murder. [ wikipedia]

I recall this chilling story: YES, he was doted upon and not abused. A rare and troubling story. I would agree that this young man was likely wired wrong.

The only thing which might struck me as parental abuse: His mother was bathing him in the tub as a teenager:

Brian Blackwell is a famous murderer of his parents. His mother was so controlling of him that late into his teens he was still being bathed ...

 

[Cate49]

When did studies start to recognize that over praising can develop narcism? I am NOT a parent and when last I heard it was all about the praise. Those of you that ARE parents it is the hardest job imaginable. Especially, when parenting styles lose or gain favor over the years.

 

[SMK]

like you i agree that if we can't raise healthy children we might as well call it a day...

but i don't agree that " For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life..."

this 19 year old --an only child--Brian B. in the UK killed his parents and I think the story goes that he was not abused or neglected..maybe he was doted upon...?
he was a good student, well thought of and on the surface it appears that he had a good upbringing - but who really knows what went on in his home ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ve-my-parents-died-so-easily-said-killer.html

Real Crime: Killed By A Perfect Son Part 1 - YouTube


Brian Blackwell (born 1986) is an English murderer. He killed his parents - 72-year-old Brian and 61-year-old Jacqueline - at their home in Melling, a village in the northern suburbs of Liverpool, England, on 25 July 2004. Medical experts have since diagnosed Blackwell as having narcissistic personality disorder, which is characterised by extreme feelings of self-importance, a high need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.
Blackwell was described as an "exemplary student" at Liverpool College and nicknamed "Brains" by his family. He created a web of lies about his life, including claiming he was a professional tennis player. To support his claims of wealth, he applied for thirteen credit cards in his father's name. He killed his parents after they became suspicious about his increasingly lavish lifestyle and began asking him questions about it.[1] He beat both with a claw hammer and stabbed them repeatedly. After the killings, he took his girlfriend Amal on holiday to New York, USA, where he spent £30,000, including the bill for a three night stay in thepresidential suite at the Plaza Hotel. A week later he returned to school and found that he had earned As in all of his A-levels, which would have gained him a place at the University of Nottingham to study medicine in October. However, the decomposing bodies of his parents were found in September. The attacks were so severe that investigators initially thought the couple had been shot.
During an interview, Blackwell claimed he knew nothing of his parents' deaths and was on holiday when they were murdered. After two days of questioning, Blackwell's story began to change. He confessed to the murders and claimed that he had acted in self-defence. According to Blackwell, he was holding a claw hammer for hanging a picture on the wall when his father stood up to hit him. Investigators had previously learned that Blackwell's father had been struck on the back of the head while sitting down, which conflicts with Blackwell's claim of self-defence. Afterwards, according to Blackwell, his mother came in, and he attacked her.
Blackwell was charged with murder and was due to stand trial; however, that charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility after experts diagnosed him to have narcissistic personality disorder. An episode of narcissistic rage can occur when the narcissist is perceivably being prevented from accomplishing his grandiose fantasies.[2] Blackwell was sentenced to life imprisonment on 29 June 2005. This was the first case in an English court in which narcissistic personality disorder had been found to be a defence to murder. [ wikipedia]

Was the Perfect Son born bad? What about the mothering he received?

This case is strangely reminiscent of British Brian Blackwell (2004) who slaughtered both his parents, and then went on a nice date that evening. Brian's mother smothered him to such a degree, that she bathed him through his teens, totally demasculating and depersonalizing him. He was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, making NPD the first diagnosis used in a court of law to excuse the insanity of an unfeeling, unempathic. chronically self-absorbed criminal.

http://solreymusic.blogspot.com/2012/12/insights-into-adam-lanzas.html

 

[TorisMom003]

When did studies start to recognize that over praising can develop narcism? I am NOT a parent and when last I heard it was all about the praise. Those of you that ARE parents it is the hardest job imaginable. Especially, when parenting styles lose or gain favor over the years.

It's a tough job with lots of mistakes made. It's not only a learning experience for the child but also for the parent. As for me and my parenting I do NOT go by any books out there. Every child is different, even siblings born to the same parents, and every child needs to be treated differently. You simply do the best that you can.