Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[Gecko100]

If you want to post as a professional get verified until such time your opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's.

To claim she did nothing wrong is beyond laughable...Tell that to Travis's family.

What 6 years of child abuse are you talking about?



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If you choose not to read about TA's background, I can't help you.
I have never once said she did nothing wrong in the three months I have been posting here, and to suggest that I have is neither true or honest.
I have been very clear about my feelings for TA's family which is redolent with compassion and empathy and cannot be considered in any other way.
If you find empathy and compassion for all the victims in this horrific crime too much for you to bear, I suggest you don't read it other people seem quite ok with it. I am not swayed by your one line arguments, and I can see you don't agree with my compassion and empathy, but I am quite fine with it, and see no reason to change who I am.
Empathy and compassion are not everybody's thing, as much as the death penalty isn't mine, but I'm ok with that too, it's not my issue. I don't see any verification for you either, but would be happy to be verified if requested, why wouldn't I? It's quite easily done.
Mind you I think more than a passing knowledge is fairly obvious.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

To Gecko as well...

I SO agree. We are willing to spend millions on criminals, but do not want to spend money for good schools, preschools, childcare, parenting classes, just to name a few things that would make a difference.

All I can think about is little tiny babies born , their beautiful eyes, not knowing that some of them are going directly into hell.

I cry to think that some people actually believe that a little newborn is evil. That an uncaring or sadistic or a parent who does not know any better can destroy a child is not a concept some people can grasp.

I think what is happening is that people are thinking of their own childhoods or parenting mistakes they have made . That is all I can see for these unusual, cruel responses to the responsibility of home life.

Those of us who have worked with families and children know and cry about the lost opportunities.

Please refer these kind of general convos for PMs. They are not specifically discussing Jodi, but rather views on social science. Not to be rude. I just can't stand it when ppl get off topic and it tends to happen more often than is necessary on this thread. It's very easy to start going down the rabbit hole when discussing psychological profile and theory.

If you have issues with the US social structure or justice system, this is not the place to speak of that.

Thank you.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Yes, and to say that abuse makes someone into a murder is nothing more than an excuse. IMO. Or that one who is abused in childhood will go onto to abuse others is not only false but damn offensive as hell :stormingmad: since millions go onto to be very productive decent, loving, and giving people..........just like Travis.

There are bad people in all walks of life...........it is just commonsense and logical that some criminals will have abuse in their lives just like those who do not have it go onto commit horrific crimes. So what? What about the other violent murderers who lived a pleasured life growing up before their heinous act? It shows abuse is just nothing more than an excuse when a criminal finds themselves in the criminal justice system.

AND in this case there isn't one shred of supporting evidence that Arias was ever abused by anyone.

The psyche docs just like to use the abuse excuse as a catchall when it is nothing more than an excuse.

If that were truly the factor since over 6 million are abused YEARLY in our country we would have an epidemic of monumental proportions of abused children now adults committing millions of heinous crimes. Our violent crime rate has been dropping in the past four-five years. So the abuse excuse is not supported by facts IMO.

IMO

Thank you do much! As a borderlinePD and domestic abuse survivor I resent ANY comparison with Jodi bc despite any abuse she may have endured in her past, that does NOT justify a months worth of premeditation! This was not a moment of temporary insanity of self defense when she MURDERED Travis. It was calculated and DELIBERATE.

The problem with Jodi is the only person she cares about... is herself.

Frankly no abuse qualifies or validates that person to ALSo carry on the CYCLE of abuse (especially when their abuse is murder!)

IMHO

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

When did it become ok to kill someone with a mental illness?
If we undoubtedly know that BPD occurs as a result of childhood damage, then she wasn't behaving 'normally' anyway.
Nor for that matter was he.

Why should we have expected them to?

It has a strong sniff of eugenics to it.
Maybe it has something to do with living somewhere where the death penalty has not been an option since the 1950's.
Even people like the Yorkshire Ripper live humanely and safely,- he is schizophrenic.
The Son of Sam, and Hinkley we murderers too with mental illnesses.

We are not here to talk about capitol punishment in the US Justice System. Thank you.

 

[Emmi]

We are not here to talk about capitol punishment in the US Justice System. Thank you.

The thing is, 2Hip, that there have been comments on this thread about the supposed correctness of putting down, destroying, human defectives (i.e., psychopaths). Those comments most certainly are advocating for capital punishment, as it relates to crime and mental disorders, and have become part of the discussion.

Seems that only the counterpoint to this pro capital punishment position is standing out as off-topic. It's a case, I think, of popular opinions enjoying camouflage, while unpopular ones are in high relief.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

When did it become ok to kill someone with a mental illness?
If we undoubtedly know that BPD occurs as a result of childhood damage, then she wasn't behaving 'normally' anyway.
Nor for that matter was he.

Why should we have expected them to?

It has a strong sniff of eugenics to it.
Maybe it has something to do with living somewhere where the death penalty has not been an option since the 1950's.
Even people like the Yorkshire Ripper live humanely and safely,- he is schizophrenic.
The Son of Sam, and Hinkley we murderers too with mental illnesses.

When did a mental illness become the only defining characteristic of a human being? Mental illness isn't the only factor here because it does not cause people to be violent. Otherwise, how do you explain the vast majority of people with mental illness who never harm anyone?

If mental illness caused people to kill, it wouldn't make sense to punish them. In fact, violence does not correlate with mental illness...people with mental illness are more likely to be victimized than to harm people. This is supported by peer reviewed research. Mental illness does not cause people to kill, so it's appropriate for people with mental illness to be punished for their crimes.

 

[SMK]

Thank you. There it is. The abuse.

No doubt in my mind that JA had been abused. None.

Does not make what she did OK or excuse it.

This report validates what I have seen with BPD- the abuse, esp. sex abuse and the denial of issues with the caregiver,

Interesting.

I always had believed by inference that she was, as well.

 

[SMK]

When did a mental illness become the only defining characteristic of a human being? Mental illness isn't the only factor here because it does not cause people to be violent. Otherwise, how do you explain the vast majority of people with mental illness who never harm anyone?

If mental illness caused people to kill, it wouldn't make sense to punish them. In fact, violence does not correlate with mental illness...people with mental illness are more likely to be victimized than to harm people. This is supported by peer reviewed research. Mental illness does not cause people to kill, so it's appropriate for people with mental illness to be punished for their crimes.

I agree. But if mental illness does not really cause any extreme behavior - rape, murder, theft, lying, etc. - then what is it, really? If Arias in the end is a woman who chose to kill a former boyfriend from revenge, then why was so much time wasted trying to test her and find a label for her? Why not simply say, "You should not have killed him." and be done with it. If these are not mitigating factors, they should be left out of trials.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I agree. But if mental illness does not really cause any extreme behavior - rape, murder, theft, lying, etc. - then what is it, really? If Arias in the end is a woman who chose to kill a former boyfriend from revenge, then why was so much time wasted trying to test her and find a label for her? Why not simply say, "You should not have killed him." and be done with it. If these are not mitigating factors, they should be left out of trials.

Attorneys will use anything they can to mitigate, whether it makes sense or not imo. Abuse doesn't make people kill either, but that's a huge one for mitigation. As far as why they wasted time...I think they are preying on peoples' lack of understanding about mental illness and hoping they are merely tv/movie educated and can be won over with emotional arguments. I wish they would leave it out of trials. Seems to promote stigma and ignorance imo.

 

[Linda7NJ]

If you choose not to read about TA's background, I can't help you.
I have never once said she did nothing wrong in the three months I have been posting here, and to suggest that I have is neither true or honest.
I have been very clear about my feelings for TA's family which is redolent with compassion and empathy and cannot be considered in any other way.
If you find empathy and compassion for all the victims in this horrific crime too much for you to bear, I suggest you don't read it other people seem quite ok with it. I am not swayed by your one line arguments, and I can see you don't agree with my compassion and empathy, but I am quite fine with it, and see no reason to change who I am.
Empathy and compassion are not everybody's thing, as much as the death penalty isn't mine, but I'm ok with that too, it's not my issue. I don't see any verification for you either, but would be happy to be verified if requested, why wouldn't I? It's quite easily done.
Mind you I think more than a passing knowledge is fairly obvious.

I do not need to be verified as I don't make professional claims, you do. I prefer to back up what I say with facts and links. That is the rule here unless you're verified.

Rest assured you don't have a corner on the market on empathy and compassion. I reserve mine for the true victims.





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[Emmi]

I SO agree. We are willing to spend millions on criminals, but do not want to spend money for good schools, preschools, childcare, parenting classes, just to name a few things that would make a difference.

All I can think about is little tiny babies born , their beautiful eyes, not knowing that some of them are going directly into hell.

I cry to think that some people actually believe that a little newborn is evil. That an uncaring or sadistic or a parent who does not know any better can destroy a child is not a concept some people can grasp.

I think what is happening is that people are thinking of their own childhoods or parenting mistakes they have made . That is all I can see for these unusual, cruel responses to the responsibility of home life.

Those of us who have worked with families and children know and cry about the lost opportunities.

My bold. Yes, I think there is a lot of defensiveness at work here. It can be heard in the "my mother hit me with a wooden spoon when I got out of line, and it didn't hurt me any ... I don't cry about it, in fact, I thank her for making me a better person!" and in the awful, rhyming/mocking phrase, "abuse excuse." As if being unable to rise above prolonged mistreatment was, itself, a proof of a pre-existing, untreatable mental disorder.

That most abuse survivors do not commit criminal acts does not mean that there is not a connection in those who do. Focussing on individual pathology (evil babies), to the exclusion of all other potential factors, is problematic to say the least.

 

[SMK]

My bold. Yes, I think there is a lot of defensiveness at work here. It can be heard in the "my mother hit me with a wooden spoon when I got out of line, and it didn't hurt me any ... I don't cry about it, in fact, I thank her for making me a better person!" and in the awful, rhyming/mocking phrase, "abuse excuse." As if being unable to rise above prolonged mistreatment was, itself, a proof of a pre-existing, untreatable mental disorder.

That most abuse survivors do not commit criminal acts does not mean that there is not a connection in those who do. Focussing on individual pathology (evil babies), to the exclusion of all other potential factors, is problematic to say the least.

:clap:

 

[Mrs G Norris]

If You could diagnose Jodi with a psychological Disorder, which Disorder would best describe her?

bumping up ( no bashing: reminder)

:bump:

I'm just so wishing we could have a rational discussion in here about psychology and Jodi Arias in particular .. those of us that love these discussions have given up completely because it's become ridiculous.

 

[human]

I agree in theory with almost everything written above. The cycle of child abuse is very real....I'm here to tell you every so often a child is born defective and the problem can not be loved or hugged away. Society needs to be protected.

To want to protect society from a unfixable murderous psychopath is a normal response. I can't understand those who liken it to Hitler.

Just curious how do you feel about pedophiles? Is it cruel to want them wiped off the face of the earth too? I think not. There is no fixing that either... Im impatiently waiting for the justice system to rectify that issue. Born or made they need to be removed from society for good.


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I do not understand? Has anyone said that these monsters do not need to be locked up and kept away from society? I have not read that, although I admit I have not read everything.

What I am talking about and some others, is the fact that babies are innocents. It is the adults in their lives that affect what happens. Even babies who are sick a lot may end up having issues with attachment.

Why do some of us care? Because we want people to become better parents. We want people to become better human beings.

The research is out there. It has even been listed on here. Some of it cannot be replicated because we are not that cruel and ignorant anymore. Think of the orphanage studies, although we have plenty of info from Romanian orphanages.

I believe the study with Harlow's monkeys still stands. And their have been references to Maslow's theories and the others who are so famous. I cannot remember her name right now, but Margaret Mead's daughter did excellent research on attachment. Her name is Catherine Bateson.

Then there is the recent man who is a scientist and should be a sociopath, but for the love he got. i forget his name, but he did brain scans,.

If we cannot raise healthy children, we might as well call it a day.

I would love to see any people who were raised in loving homes that turned into psycho killers. For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life. I guarantee 100%, unless they had something like the Unabomber who was kept from his mother while hospitalized.

That may have been able to be repaired, but people did not know at the time how damaging that could be.

Just because we have sympathy for people who were raised in hell does not mean that we feel they should be running loose.

I think that has been said over and over again, but I will say it one more time

 

[Arabian Girl]

I agree. But if mental illness does not really cause any extreme behavior - rape, murder, theft, lying, etc. - then what is it, really? If Arias in the end is a woman who chose to kill a former boyfriend from revenge, then why was so much time wasted trying to test her and find a label for her? Why not simply say, "You should not have killed him." and be done with it. If these are not mitigating factors, they should be left out of trials.

Great comment!! I've been astounded, confused AND amused reading this thread as all the "Armchair Psychologist" define, diagnoses and occasionally offer an elixir for not just Jodi, but all of US with MH issues.

The answer to your question could just as easily be that Jodi HAS NO MH issues and is more like all the authors here than she is one of us poor souls! Perhaps just an elaborate, even if futile, attempt to comprehend the incomprehensible.

Go figure.

 

[human]

To Gecko as well...




Please refer these kind of general convos for PMs. They are not specifically discussing Jodi, but rather views on social science. Not to be rude. I just can't stand it when ppl get off topic and it tends to happen more often than is necessary on this thread. It's very easy to start going down the rabbit hole when discussing psychological profile and theory.

If you have issues with the US social structure or justice system, this is not the place to speak of that.

Thank you.

Hm. I am responding to people who say babies are evil.

What does that have to do with social structure or the justice system?

Rather than dealing with issues that poor parenting causes, we are going to assign the blame to an infant??

I

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Hm. I am responding to people who say babies are evil.

What does that have to do with social structure or the justice system?

Rather than dealing with issues that poor parenting causes, we are going to assign the blame to an infant??

I

There is debate as to whether or not bad parenting "causes" people to do things like what Jodi did.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Trying to define what caused Jodi to be dysfunctional is like trying to define the perfect storm.

None of us REALLY know the specifics elements that all fell together to make Jodi who she is today.

The reason why I get somewhat offended from a forensic psychology point of view is that you are taught to uphold the US justice system and asess the patient from a psychological and legal perspective.

I often have to remind myself to not get too emotionally/personally invested. It's difficult for me not to I'm this specific case.

But for the record

The majority of people on death row actually live out their lives and never actually are put to death. They appeal, and because the justice system is fair, it allows this process. The death penalty is more about solitary confinement and the connotation of death.

In AZ I think there's only been 1 woman actually put to death and that was before civil rights hit in the US and ppl began to think logically about persecution/prejudice.

To be quite honest, there are many social variations in the USA that it would be impossible and flat ignorant to assume Any one specific view about the US.

We are a large country and the justice system has to be more uniform so as to not allow prejudice to occur. The moment we start giving women that commit premeditated, cruel murder a lesser or unequal punishment to men that commit premeditated, cruel murder ... The justice system is failing.

Lady justices scales fall too heavy on the male spectrum and too light on the female. I believe people want to make sure there is no more favoritism based upon sex, race, creed etc. In the justice system and specifically with this case. That's why some might seem so bent of making sure she is vilified properly, bc attractive light women seem to get lighter punishment/social criticism.

For me - I don't care about all of that.

I just want facts on her biography and I want to apply those biographical facts to forensic psych and law. I also wish we could pay more attention to her test results for her psych evaluations.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Hm. I am responding to people who say babies are evil.

What does that have to do with social structure or the justice system?

Rather than dealing with issues that poor parenting causes, we are going to assign the blame to an infant??

I

I'm not here to play teacher and referee and I don't have time to take note of who has said what to who. If someone said ver batim "babies are evil" them yeah, that's off topic. I really don't want to have to get in the middle of all these ridiculous impositions.

just trying to remind everyone. Get back on track please. If someone is annoying you or bullying you, you can go to UserCP and go to "edit ignore list" and type in their name to ignore their posts. I just figured this function out.

 

[Emmi]

There is debate as to whether or not bad parenting "causes" people to do things like what Jodi did.

I don't think anyone here took the position that bad parenting directly causes people to commit murder. Many people, though, see abusive or uninformed parenting--rather than in-born, untreatable psychopathy--as one very important element in this metaphor of a "perfect storm."