Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[2Hip2BSquare]

Bolded says it all.

I had to throw in a last minute edit after you read that. Lol im so bad about re-editing bc i always forget to say everything lol

It's in the first P. talking about abnormal brain functioning being genetic.

 

[SMK]

I think she's a psychopath.... I think she was born defective. Had she been born an only child with well equipped, on the same page parents she may have faired better.
I believe if we actually had a complete picture of her early years... She'd meet the criteria for ASPD.
It's my opinion the BPD was the best Dr. DeMarte could do with the information she had.


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I think it is a stretch to say someone is born defective, when you have only seen them via media during a murder trial.

I vigorously disagree with taste of honey about a "born this way" BPD---that is conjecture, and interpretation only. I have enormous respect for logic and the rules and ethics of logic, and these assumptions are not logical.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Yes it is, a struggle, but it does highlight divisions of thought, not just in 'local' area where it is very factionalised, but also in the wider system universally people have have opinions about it if they can get past sensationalised hyperbolic media syndication.
A lot of people indicate that they can. Synthesis is still a very long way off universally, but the rumbling has started,.
I no longer trust any reportage, because media in the hands of a few is a very dangerous situation, you hear what they want to tell you.
Infotainment about a very simple court case has taken 5 years plus 4 months of nightly' infotainment' hyperbolic drama. Five years and four months on remand for a simple murder - considered innocent before a trial, is a very long time indeed whatever the circumstances, it breaches every notion of right due process.
And it may change a person indelibly, innocent or not.

This media is not information, or remotely entertaining, it is justice tampering for dubious cash and ratings.
It has created a monster for everyone to hate. Some hate JA. I hate the media creation of her and think that is more monstrously damaging.
I hold them responsible for irresponsible reporting, biased opinions and sensationalism and for creating a level of hysterically awful unabated demands for a painful death or worse for her, and anyone who has a dissenting opinion. Tolerance and humanity has disappeared with it.

She wasn't Hitler Pol Pot and Idi Amin Fred West or Ted Bundy or any other psychopath rolled into one.

No-one can be called a great intellectual giant on a media incapable of criticising it's irresponsible self. It causes all sorts of mistruths and rumour to wander around freely without collaboration or checked facts.
It's full of rumours and innuendo based on flimsy knowledge and gutless wonders who could actually do good, but they tamper by creating sensationalism to make money and ratings instead.
You might well enquire about a collective pathology indeed.

Well she did brutally murder an innocent person. It's a good thing to be repulsed and angered by that. Hitler, et al are irrelevant. Just because she didn't do something even worse isn't a reason to not give her the death penalty.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think it is a stretch to say someone is born defective, when you have only seen them via media during a murder trial.

I vigorously disagree with taste of honey about a "born this way" BPD---that is conjecture, and interpretation only. I have enormous respect for logic and the rules and ethics of logic, and these assumptions are not logical.

I can see
she has a flat affect
She exhibits no fear
She's manipulative
She triangulates every chance she gets
She's superficially charming
Has zero remorse
Has zero empathy
Has zero guilt

Hang on.., this is easier than typing
.....

Here's a link

http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/the-list-of-psychopathy-symptoms/

She is a psychopath... Textbook Psychopath.




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[2Hip2BSquare]

I think she's a psychopath.... I think she was born defective. Had she been born an only child with well equipped, on the same page parents she may have faired better. Although, I doubt it.
I believe if we actually had a complete picture of her earlier years... She'd meet the criteria for ASPD.
It's my opinion the BPD was the best Dr. DeMarte could do with the information she had.


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I agree that her core malfunction is Psychopathy/ASPD. I think she developed BPD like moods bc ASPD and BPD are very similar in functionality as far as the affected areas of the brain being quite similar in both disorders. Basically her dependent and Avoidant behavior and dissociation are BPD coping mechanisms to help her deal with her own psychopathy/ASPD - the core issue.

I think when she is confident of her image, she behaves like a narcissist PD. when she is feeling that narcissism/ego is being attacked, she begins to use BPD like coping mechanisms. At the center of it all is her ASPD inability to to have any remorse for her narcissism or borderline like mood swings/obsessions.

 

[SMK]

Yes it is, a struggle, but it does highlight divisions of thought, not just in 'local' area where it is very factionalised, but also in the wider system universally people have have opinions about it if they can get past sensationalised hyperbolic media syndication.
A lot of people indicate that they can. Synthesis is still a very long way off universally, but the rumbling has started,.
I no longer trust any reportage, because media in the hands of a few is a very dangerous situation, you hear what they want to tell you.
Infotainment about a very simple court case has taken 5 years plus 4 months of nightly' infotainment' hyperbolic drama. Five years and four months on remand for a simple murder - considered innocent before a trial, is a very long time indeed whatever the circumstances, it breaches every notion of right due process.
And it may change a person indelibly, innocent or not.

This media is not information, or remotely entertaining, it is justice tampering for dubious cash and ratings.
It has created a monster for everyone to hate. Some hate JA. I hate the media creation of her and think that is more monstrously damaging.
I hold them responsible for irresponsible reporting, biased opinions and sensationalism and for creating a level of hysterically awful unabated demands for a painful death or worse for her, and anyone who has a dissenting opinion. Tolerance and humanity has disappeared with it.

She wasn't Hitler Pol Pot and Idi Amin Fred West or Ted Bundy or any other psychopath rolled into one.

No-one can be called a great intellectual giant on a media incapable of criticising it's irresponsible self. It causes all sorts of mistruths and rumour to wander around freely without collaboration or checked facts.
It's full of rumours and innuendo based on flimsy knowledge and gutless wonders who could actually do good, but they tamper by creating sensationalism to make money and ratings instead.
You might well enquire about a collective pathology indeed.

Foucault in his Madness and Civilization predicted we would come to just such an impasse.

The fact is, you cannot have it both ways:
If Arias was born defective, then it is inhumane for an advanced democracy to sentence her to life or to the death penalty.

Punitive justice must be reserved for normal persons who commit crimes of their own volition.

It is as Foucault said: Mental illness and the concept of it arose after the plague had ended. It is a mechanism of civilization, but our criminal justice system is clashing with brain science.

Which is it? A mental defective or an evil person?

Murder in the past did not generally cause mass outrage of the type we are seeing now. Most people do not murder and are lucky to not have family members be victims of murder. Something else is at work here, I am sure.

 

[numnut]

I don't know where else to post this, but do you guys notice a certain look in the eyes of some of these BPD's?

Look at Jodi compared with Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Casey Anthony, even a young Charlie Manson.

Am I just seeing things or are there profound similarities?

 

[SMK]

I don't know where else to post this, but do you guys notice a certain look in the eyes of some of these BPD's?

Look at Jodi compared with Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Casey Anthony, even a young Charlie Manson.

Am I just seeing things or are there profound similarities?

I think what you are seeing is flat affect:the blunting of emotional expression.

 

[Linn]

JA is the kind of person who doesn't see anything negative in herself. These kind of people always project their negative qualities on other people and seriously believe that they possess those negative qualities. I have been on the receiving end myself and it's a surreal feeling to say the least. Also it's amazing to see how a so called 'sweet' person turns ice cold in a flash, the whole being changes, the voice changes and on top of that they define you with definitions that aren't even remotely true. It's a really scary feeling, you really fear for your life at that moment.

What if JA slaughtered the projection of herself, using Travis as a mirror?

She says that TA was the abuser, that also sounds as her projection. I'm pretty sure that every negative thing she has to say about other people are in fact her own flaws.

Since she is so detached from her emotions it's impossible that she could even feel any remorse. In order for her to be able to say 'I'm sorry' to the Alexander-family she would have to connect with them on an emotional level. She doesn't feel their pain and that's why she can afford to be so smug and arrogant.

One thing was strange, she was very keen on using the 'victim of abuse' -thing, but she was not at any point taking out the insanity-card. She can't do that since she sees herself as a sane and innocent person.

Her family and upbringing has probably not been the reason for her being the way she is. She was just born that way.

Her mother connecting emotionally with her twinsister is nothing strange IMO. People normally connect emotionally, but one can't do that with JA.

These are my two cents at the moment...

 

[Linda7NJ]

Foucault in his Madness and Civilization predicted we would come to just such an impasse.

The fact is, you cannot have it both ways:
If Arias was born defective, then it is inhumane for an advanced democracy to sentence her to life or to the death penalty.

Punitive justice must be reserved for normal persons who commit crimes of their own volition.

It is as Foucault said: Mental illness and the concept of it arose after the plague had ended. It is a mechanism of civilization, but our criminal justice system is clashing with brain science.

Which is it? A mental defective or an evil person?

Murder in the past did not generally cause mass outrage of the type we are seeing now. Most people do not murder and are lucky to not have family members be victims of murder. Something else is at work here, I am sure.

I would agree. Jodi can't help that she's a psychopath. However, she knew what she was doing was wrong ... She understood the consequences. She just didn't care.

I would go as far as saying I believe it's cruel and
inhumane to lock Jodi in a cell 23/7 ...because of her narcissistic psychopathy.

Well... It's cruel and inhumane to lock any human being up like that. We are social creatures.

IMO it's more humane to put her and others like her "to sleep" like a rabid dog. We can't fix her, we can't ever release her.


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[Horace Finklestein]

Foucault in his Madness and Civilization predicted we would come to just such an impasse.

The fact is, you cannot have it both ways:
If Arias was born defective, then it is inhumane for an advanced democracy to sentence her to life or to the death penalty.

Punitive justice must be reserved for normal persons who commit crimes of their own volition.

It is as Foucault said: Mental illness and the concept of it arose after the plague had ended. It is a mechanism of civilization, but our criminal justice system is clashing with brain science.

Which is it? A mental defective or an evil person?

Murder in the past did not generally cause mass outrage of the type we are seeing now. Most people do not murder and are lucky to not have family members be victims of murder. Something else is at work here, I am sure.

Mental illness does not cause people to murder. She did this of her own volition regardless of what else was going on with her mental health.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I think it is a stretch to say someone is born defective, when you have only seen them via media during a murder trial.

I vigorously disagree with taste of honey about a "born this way" BPD---that is conjecture, and interpretation only. I have enormous respect for logic and the rules and ethics of logic, and these assumptions are not logical.

Dear SMK:

I will reiterate my claim that it could be nature ("born this way") or it could be environmental ("nurture").
I posted a link before from the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) that talked about both etiologies and research backing both.

Maybe you've misinterpreted or skipped my post?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Mental illness does not cause people to murder. She did this of her own volition regardless of what else was going on with her mental health.

Agreed, it just allows her to sleep like a baby.
Can't even imagine what being without a conscience feels like.


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[2Hip2BSquare]

If anyone has interest in reading about ASPD's this book is great IMHO. The Mask of Sanity by Cleckley.

The Mask of Sanity is a book written by Hervey Cleckley, M.D., first published in 1941, describing Cleckley's clinical interviews with incarcerated psychopaths. It is considered a seminal work and the most influential clinical description of psychopathy in the twentieth century. The basic elements of psychopathy outlined by Cleckley are still relevant today.[1] The title refers to the normal "mask" that conceals the mental disorder of the psychopathic person in Cleckley's conceptualization.[2]

Cleckley describes the psychopathic person as outwardly a perfect mimic of a normally functioning person, able to mask or disguise the fundamental lack of internal personality structure, an internal chaos that results in repeatedly purposeful destructive behavior, often more self-destructive than destructive to others. Despite the seemingly sincere, intelligent, even charming external presentation, internally the psychopathic person does not have the ability to experience genuine emotions. Cleckley questions whether this mask of sanity is voluntarily assumed intentionally to hide the lack of internal structure, or if the mask hides a serious, but yet unidentified, psychiatric defect.[3]

An expanded edition of the book was published in 1982, after the DSM, the manual used in the United States for categorizing psychiatric disorders, had changed the name and standards for the classification of psychopathy to antisocial personality disorder, incorporating most of Cleckley's 16 characteristics of a psychopath listed below.[4] The original edition of the book is no longer in print, but Cleckley's heirs have released the most recently updated edition into the public domain for non-profit or educational use.[5]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mask_of_Sanity

 

[renah]

I think it is soo obvious that jodi turned to her intellect to cope with very scarey-to-her emotions, either her own or those of/from her family. She used it as her #1 coping defense, probably from very early on, until she'd stuffed any inner emotional life down down DOWN.

Although we the public have heard little about any "justifiable" abuse, the fact that very need to do this (retreat from emotion) existed confirms to me that significant childhood abuse occured. I do recall her telling Det. Flores that her parents ALWAYS yelled, even when they were in the same room. She said she thought that maybe they were just so inured that they didnt even realize that they were doing it.

It is Jodi's over-intellectualization that appears VERY similiar to Aspergers... or schizoid pd..

I believe strongly that if she'd had warmer, more loving & attentive parents, she would have developed empathy & warmth too-- and totally "lost" the ASPD. Though she 'd probably still been considered aa bit odd, she probably now would not be a murderess.

If you think that constant screaming, yelling, bickering & negativity is only a little bit of child abuse, let me tell you about this bridge I have for sale....

 

[Linda7NJ]

If anyone has interest in reading about ASPD's this book is great IMHO. The Mask of Sanity by Cleckley.

The Mask of Sanity is a book written by Hervey Cleckley, M.D., first published in 1941, describing Cleckley's clinical interviews with incarcerated psychopaths. It is considered a seminal work and the most influential clinical description of psychopathy in the twentieth century. The basic elements of psychopathy outlined by Cleckley are still relevant today.[1] The title refers to the normal "mask" that conceals the mental disorder of the psychopathic person in Cleckley's conceptualization.[2]

Cleckley describes the psychopathic person as outwardly a perfect mimic of a normally functioning person, able to mask or disguise the fundamental lack of internal personality structure, an internal chaos that results in repeatedly purposeful destructive behavior, often more self-destructive than destructive to others. Despite the seemingly sincere, intelligent, even charming external presentation, internally the psychopathic person does not have the ability to experience genuine emotions. Cleckley questions whether this mask of sanity is voluntarily assumed intentionally to hide the lack of internal structure, or if the mask hides a serious, but yet unidentified, psychiatric defect.[3]

An expanded edition of the book was published in 1982, after the DSM, the manual used in the United States for categorizing psychiatric disorders, had changed the name and standards for the classification of psychopathy to antisocial personality disorder, incorporating most of Cleckley's 16 characteristics of a psychopath listed below.[4] The original edition of the book is no longer in print, but Cleckley's heirs have released the most recently updated edition into the public domain for non-profit or educational use.[5]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mask_of_Sanity

It is an excellent read I highly recommend it too!


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[2Hip2BSquare]

Does any of this sound like Jodi?
----------------------------
Taken from Link above

"Characteristics

Cleckley introduced 16 behavioral characteristics of a psychopath: [6]

Superficial charm and good intelligence
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
Absence of nervousness or psychoneurotic manifestations
Unreliability
Untruthfulness and insincerity
Lack of remorse and shame
Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
General poverty in major affective reactions
Specific loss of insight
Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink and sometimes without
Suicide threats rarely carried out
Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
Failure to follow any life plan.
Some of the criteria have obvious psychodynamic implications, such as a lack of remorse, poor judgment, failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity, lack of capacity for love, a general poverty in major affective reactions, and lack of insight into his own condition.[2] Starting in 1972, newer editions of the book reflected a closer alliance with Kernberg's (1984) borderline level of personality organization, specifically defining the structural criteria of the psychopath's identity integration, defensive operations and reality testing.[7]

Cleckley also introduced the term "semantic dementia" (used today to refer to a medical disorder unconnected to Cleckley's meaning) to refer to the inability of this personality type to "understand the meaning of life as lived by ordinary people". Behind the mask of sanity, the psychopath's "emotional mechanism had collapsed".[8] Additionally, Cleckley used the term "semantic aphasia" to describe a tendency among psychopaths to use language well enough for casual daily interactions while lacking a deep understanding of language, manifested as "the mechanical production of a well-constructed but counterfeit speech."

In summary, Cleckley clearly distinguishes the psychopath from other disorders such as neurotic alcoholics, psychoneurotics, criminal sex offenders, and typical criminals. The psychopath does not suffer from any obvious mental disorder. Cleckley characterizes the psychopath as seeming to deliberately court failure and disaster for no obvious reason and despite their intelligence, in what Cleckley calls a social and spiritual suicide, or semi-suicide. For example, the classic alcoholic drinks to avoid reality, while the psychopath drinks simply to behave outrageously and get into trouble.[8]

Criminality

Cleckley is very clear that there are important distinctions between the psychopath and the average criminal:[9]

The psychopath very seldom takes much advantage of what he or she gains and almost never works consistently toward a goal in crime or anything else, seemingly lacking purpose.
Criminal ends, though condemned, can usually be understood by the average man. It is not hard to understand why a criminal steals money. However, the psychopath, if he or she steals or defrauds, appears to do so for an obscure purpose, sometimes incomprehensibly throwing away much of value for short-term gains.
The criminal usually spares harm to him or herself as much as he or she can and harms others. The psychopath, although he or she causes sorrow and trouble for others, usually puts him or herself in a shameful position. His or her most serious damage to others is often through their concern for him or her and their futile efforts to help him or her.
The typical psychopath, from Cleckley's observations, usually avoids murder or other offenses that lead to lengthy prison sentences. The larger part of the psychopath's antisocial behavior can be interpreted as purposely designed to harm him or herself. Cleckley adds that most of the people who commit violent and serious crimes fail to show the chief characteristics of a psychopath.
Cleckley states that although a "considerable proportion" of inmates in penal institutions show indications of a psychopathic disorder, only a small proportion of typical psychopaths are likely to be found in an incarcerated environment.[10]"

 

[renah]

...and as far as what she was "born with", imo that was simply a very sensitive disposition. Perhaps, likely, whats usually disparaged as overly-sensitive... babies are not born as blank slates and imo its the parents job to see this.

Sorry for taking up 2 posts but Im using only my smartphone right now, which is like typing blind, & also utterly impossible to edit!

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Yes it is, a struggle, but it does highlight divisions of thought, not just in 'local' area where it is very factionalised, but also in the wider system universally people have have opinions about it if they can get past sensationalised hyperbolic media syndication.
A lot of people indicate that they can. Synthesis is still a very long way off universally, but the rumbling has started,.
I no longer trust any reportage, because media in the hands of a few is a very dangerous situation, you hear what they want to tell you.
Infotainment about a very simple court case has taken 5 years plus 4 months of nightly' infotainment' hyperbolic drama. Five years and four months on remand for a simple murder - considered innocent before a trial, is a very long time indeed whatever the circumstances, it breaches every notion of right due process.
And it may change a person indelibly, innocent or not.

This media is not information, or remotely entertaining, it is justice tampering for dubious cash and ratings.
It has created a monster for everyone to hate. Some hate JA. I hate the media creation of her and think that is more monstrously damaging.
I hold them responsible for irresponsible reporting, biased opinions and sensationalism and for creating a level of hysterically awful unabated demands for a painful death or worse for her, and anyone who has a dissenting opinion. Tolerance and humanity has disappeared with it.
She wasn't Hitler Pol Pot and Idi Amin Fred West or Ted Bundy or any other psychopath rolled into one.

No-one can be called a great intellectual giant on a media incapable of criticising it's irresponsible self. It causes all sorts of mistruths and rumour to wander around freely without collaboration or checked facts.
It's full of rumours and innuendo based on flimsy knowledge and gutless wonders who could actually do good, but they tamper by creating sensationalism to make money and ratings instead.
You might well enquire about a collective pathology indeed.

BBM: I don't hate the media-----it is just a reflection of our society. It feeds our society what our society wants.
Sad indeed.

 

[human]

Borderline PDs are most likely to be associated with the word "betrayal" from what I've read - but then again I'm not dr. Scholarly!

Here is an article about the borderline PDs perception of betrayal, specific from caregivers, and how they deal with that betrayal. This also discusses borderline dissociation and coping mechanisms. I think you'll enjoy this read!

http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/~jjf/articles/kfborderline2009.pdf

Thank you. There it is. The abuse.

No doubt in my mind that JA had been abused. None.

Does not make what she did OK or excuse it.

This report validates what I have seen with BPD- the abuse, esp. sex abuse and the denial of issues with the caregiver,

Interesting.