Pope Benedict XVI resigned-Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina has been elected

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Pope Betting Odds Favor Canadian Cardinal Ouellet (ABC News)
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Marc Cardinal Ouellet, the former archbishop of Quebec, who now heads the Congregation of Bishops, has shot to the top of oddsmakers' lists in the 24 hours since Pope Benedict XVI unexpectedly announced he will retire at the end of the month.

Paddy Power, based in Ireland, lists Ouellet at 7 to 2 odds. Ladbrokes, a London-based betting house, has the Canadian cardinal at 3 to 1 odds.

Ouellet has such "pope-ularity" that he has attracted 65 percent of all wagers at Ladbrokes, spokeswoman Jessica Bridge told ABCNews.com.
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more at the link

Other picks:

ANGELO CARDINAL SCOLA, 71, ITALY

PETER CARDINAL TURKSON, 64, GHANA

LEONARDO CARDINAL SANDRI, 69, ARGENTINA

ANGELO CARDINAL BAGNASCO, 70, ITALY

TARSICIO CARDINAL BERTONE, 78, ITALY

TIMOTHY CARDINAL DOLAN, 63, NEW YORK
 
BetteDavisEyes said:
Vatican acknowledges that pope had pacemaker

3 hours ago

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican is acknowledging for the first time that Pope Benedict XVI has had a pacemaker for years and that its battery was replaced a few months ago in secret...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20130211/EU.Pope.Health/
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Not surprising to me and I'm sure there is a bunch of other things going on with him that we may never know.

I have not been such a fan of this Pope--I am welcoming a change and hopefully it will be in a direction that is more inclusive of the world's people and a direction that once and for all works to eradicate the corruption that seems so pervasive in the Church today, all sorts of criminal and just plain inappropriate behavior.

One thing I will give Pope Benedict XVI is that he is not hanging on to a position he cannot fulfill 100%. For that, I am grateful.

My relationship with the Church is odd---I am very liberal when it comes to things like women serving as clergy, but believe it or not I just LOVE that old Tridentine Mass and many of the "old" ways...it's so bizarre. The most recent "offense" in my mind is changing the Apostles' Creed....arghhhh and I hated the new Nicene Creed before that.
 
michmi said:
Not surprising to me and I'm sure there is a bunch of other things going on with him that we may never know.

I have not been such a fan of this Pope--I am welcoming a change and hopefully it will be in a direction that is more inclusive of the world's people and a direction that once and for all works to eradicate the corruption that seems so pervasive in the Church today, all sorts of criminal and just plain inappropriate behavior.

One thing I will give Pope Benedict XVI is that he is not hanging on to a position he cannot fulfill 100%. For that, I am grateful.

My relationship with the Church is odd---I am very liberal when it comes to things like women serving as clergy, but believe it or not I just LOVE that old Tridentine Mass and many of the "old" ways...it's so bizarre. The most recent "offense" in my mind is changing the Apostles' Creed....arghhhh and I hated the new Nicene Creed before that.
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Ohoh, are you me?! :lol: I'm exactly the same, v liberal, have an on again/off again relationship with the church, sometimes I'm not sure I even believe in god anymore. But damn I love the old Mass, I love the candles, incense, chanting, statuary, all of that... and I was born way after the old Mass was done away with.

I often say I am tempted to run off and join the high church Anglicans, who are pretty traditional liturgically but liberal on beliefs, but I am deathly afraid of the lightning bolt surely headed my way from my Irish granny if I ever did something like join the English lol. :D
 
wfgodot said:
Pope Betting Odds Favor Canadian Cardinal Ouellet (ABC News)
more at the link

Other picks:

ANGELO CARDINAL SCOLA, 71, ITALY

PETER CARDINAL TURKSON, 64, GHANA

LEONARDO CARDINAL SANDRI, 69, ARGENTINA

ANGELO CARDINAL BAGNASCO, 70, ITALY

TARSICIO CARDINAL BERTONE, 78, ITALY

TIMOTHY CARDINAL DOLAN, 63, NEW YORK
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Lots of italians. After a Pole and a German, they might go with the "safe" bet with one of them.

Still hoping here for a central or south American, one with some sympathy for liberation theology (sorry, DK ;) )
 
Cappuccino said:
The Vatican has both a standing army and a diplomatic service. As for the "devil's bargain", aka an internationally recognised treaty, it allowed the Italian church to retain at least some measure of independence from Mussolini's foul regime, and was a lot more honourable than the actions of the German church at the time.
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Um, actually no, per a number of sources.

The Swiss Guard provides protection for the Pope personally as Head of the Church, not as head of state of Vatican City. The Vatican has a small police force, but no army, navy or air force.

Vatican City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Vatican City's own page:

http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/homepage.htm

The task of representing Vatican City State and managing its relations with foreign States is the prerogative of the Pope who does so through the Secretariat of State.
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That is NOT a formal diplomatic corps. There are some foreign embassies in Rome, but the Vatican as a "nation" is too small to house any of them on its own soil.

***

"More honorable" is not a phrase I have often heard applied to Pius XII. I think you'll find more historians talking about his "collaboration" with Mussolini (and later, Hitler), but suit yourself.
 
Gardenlady said:
Ohoh, are you me?! :lol: I'm exactly the same, v liberal, have an on again/off again relationship with the church, sometimes I'm not sure I even believe in god anymore. But damn I love the old Mass, I love the candles, incense, chanting, statuary, all of that... and I was born way after the old Mass was done away with.

I often say I am tempted to run off and join the high church Anglicans, who are pretty traditional liturgically but liberal on beliefs, but I am deathly afraid of the lightning bolt surely headed my way from my Irish granny if I ever did something like join the English lol. :D
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I don't think either of you are odd. I wasn't raised Catholic, but I attended Mass off and on for years. The ritual is a tangible expression of a community of spirit and there's nothing wrong with wanting to share that.

I wouldn't put one cent in the collection plate, but that's another matter.
 
Weird, sorry for double post... Swear I only hit post once!
 
Tugela said:
That is irrelevant. What matters is if the US recognizes the Vatican as a country, and it does. That affords the Vatican sovereign immunity. A civil court cannot overturn that.
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This expert argues that Benedict's resignation will end his immunity, so he certainly isn't resigning to avoid personal responsibility. But nobody argued he was. On the other hand, his resignation certainly makes it easier for him to claim he is too ill to give depositions, etc., in Church-related law suits. It would be harder to make such a claim were he presiding over Mass in St. Peter's Square.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-could-be-sued-over-child-abuse-20130212-2ebjl.html


And Wiki offers a detailed discussion of the legal principle, including the following observation:

Recent developments in international law suggest that this type of immunity, whilst it may be available as a defence to prosecution for local or domestic crimes or civil liability, is not a defence to an international crime.
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(Emphasis added.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_from_prosecution_(international_law)

***

Of course if Ratzinger spends his remaining years secluded on Vatican property, it may not be possible to serve him with papers or to charge him (except in absentia).

And despite Cappucino's doubts, I still say that while having an ex-Pope at the center of an institutional scandal is bad, having the reigning Pope in such a position would be worse.
 
Nova said:
This expert argues that Benedict's resignation will end his immunity, so he certainly isn't resigning to avoid personal responsibility. But nobody argued he was. On the other hand, his resignation certainly makes it easier for him to claim he is too ill to give depositions, etc., in Church-related law suits. It would be harder to make such a claim were he presiding over Mass in St. Peter's Square.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-could-be-sued-over-child-abuse-20130212-2ebjl.html


And Wiki offers a detailed discussion of the legal principle, including the following observation:



(Emphasis added.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_from_prosecution_(international_law)

***

Of course if Ratzinger spends his remaining years secluded on Vatican property, it may not be possible to serve him with papers or to charge him (except in absentia).

And despite Cappucino's doubts, I still say that while having an ex-Pope at the center of an institutional scandal is bad, having the reigning Pope in such a position would be worse.
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To be honest, I don't think he's going to live very long after resignation. He looks awful.
 
michmi said:
To be honest, I don't think he's going to live very long after resignation. He looks awful.
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When I heard that there was breaking news from the Vatican, I thought that the Holy Father had passed away. I think he is not long for this world.
 
Just another thought: by resigning, Pope Benedict avoids the legal questions I outlined above, should they arise. If he remained Pope, some might be inspired to challenge the criminal and civil immunity of the Pontiff as head of the Vatican state.

Once Ratzinger resigns, he will no longer be immune and no one will need to challenge the Vatican's status as an independent nation-state.
 
BetteDavisEyes said:
When I heard that there was breaking news from the Vatican, I thought that the Holy Father had passed away. I think he is not long for this world.
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But if Benedict himself believes his end is near, why resign? Why not just let nature take its course, as it has done for 600 years?
 
Nova said:
But if Benedict himself believes his end is near, why resign? Why not just let nature take its course, as it has done for 600 years?
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Back when JPII was in decline, it was said by unofficial sources that Ratzinger advised him to step down, due to his deteriorating health. Towards the end, things became very difficult and there was question as to how much the pope was doing, as opposed to his advisors. As with any 'government', and perhaps moreso in the Vatican, there are factions. Because of the holy father's declining health, opposing factions within the Vatican at the time were said to have had an advantage due to the pope's inability to function during his final months (years perhaps?).

So I tink Ratzinger, having seen what went on during JPIIs end of reign, perhaps wants to avoid such a situation happening again.

No sources, just remembrances of what a sometimes church-nerd read and heard back in '05. :)
 
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