Possible Links between RAT and JM

[ThinkHard]

I think RAT can tell them JM is his supplier, maybe RAT is the big stash holder for his little area....that's why the "transporter" JM brings it to him. RAT was involved in towing....I can see some overlay with towing and a taxi company too....

I don't know what to really think about how Alexis ended up in that trailer. I'd have to read up more on the facts they do have in her last sightings to form a better theory. But I think she went there on her own free will, and I think she knew JM, he may have actually "liked" her, and been flirting with her. I think her case might have been a "mistake" on jM's part. I don't think he would have intentionally involved RT.

I think they are both likely guilty of sexually assaulting her, and giving her drugs and alcohol...I think things got way carried away. I think at some point she was punched or slapped so hard it caused blood to spray on the wall. I think she tried to get away and put up a struggle. I think JM snapped and killed her, and RT witnessed it, and helped with the "clean up". I think they are both very guilty but of different things. Then I think JM, planted evidence, and gag ordered JT.

----quite a coincidence that it was a shirt, that contained both the victim and suspects DNA....think he learned that somewhere?

All jmo of course

 

[ksj3]

I think RAT can tell them JM is his supplier, maybe RAT is the big stash holder for his little area....that's why the "transporter" JM brings it to him. RAT was involved in towing....I can see some overlay with towing and a taxi company too....

I don't know what to really think about how Alexis ended up in that trailer. I'd have to read up more on the facts they do have in her last sightings to form a better theory. But I think she went there on her own free will, and I think she knew JM, he may have actually "liked" her, and been flirting with her. I think her case might have been a "mistake" on jM's part. I don't think he would have intentionally involved RT.

I think they are both likely guilty of sexually assaulting her, and giving her drugs and alcohol...I think things got way carried away. I think at some point she was punched or slapped so hard it caused blood to spray on the wall. I think she tried to get away and put up a struggle. I think JM snapped and killed her, and RT witnessed it, and helped with the "clean up". I think they are both very guilty but of different things. Then I think JM, planted evidence, and gag ordered JT.

----quite a coincidence that it was a shirt, that contained both the victim and suspects DNA....think he learned that somewhere?

All jmo of course

Oh, golly, the shirt. Now I think you're really getting somewhere. He would have known - two sets of DNA - perp and victim. His (JM's) isn't (wasn't) in the system so a third one wouldn't matter. They wouldn't know whose it was. If LE realizes RAT was involved, they find the shirt and immediately he's suspect #1.

So, AM's blood was on the back of RAT's shirt. Possible scenario: RAT is in the room when AM is killed, but had his back turned. (But then the murder is not JM's known MO - but they're investigating the shooting death of a couple related to him, so maybe he is a known gun carrier). JM demands it as protection, or death to RAT or RAT's son. RAT gives it up willingly, thinking nothing will ever come of it, or even if it does, that's better than the alternative.

Someone - oldwindow? - stated that RAT's trailer was under covert surveillance from the time of the first search until RAT was in custody. If so, that makes this much more difficult - but that JM went back and planted the shirt. Maybe RAT was starting to talk to LE and JM was getting scared. If it was under surveillance, that would have been impossible. Or, maybe JM really did hide it in the couch like someone else mentioned such that RAT wasn't aware it was there (in the days following AM's disappearance, before LE was on to RAT).....so it wasn't easily seen on the first search but was there all along, and JM had put it there without RAT realizing. LE interviewed RAT on 8/5. AM disappeared on 8/3. JM had all day 8/4 to get it there.

We know RAT took a cab back to his house at 10:30 pm on 8/4, so JM could have been there while RAT was gone, knowing he was going to meet him soon, at Woods Mill or even at his own house on Wells Lane. http://www.roanoke.com/news/virgini...cle_f9454c8a-d6c2-52ad-8921-a7b388169bfd.html

Yep, just thinking out loud and JMO. But, wow.

ETA: We know there is unidentified DNA in AM's car (of course, other people would have ridden in it, but I know some

ETA #2: I think my theory is a bust. First, how does the whole CODIS system work that they matched the DNA on MH's shirt to the Fairfax rape? Are they actively running all DNA against just that one crime since she survived, until they find a hit? Or do they actively run all DNA against every crime, meaning JM's DNA doesn't match any other cases (but why, then, would they be NOW checking him against other ones...?)? What caused them to match MH and Fairfax?

If we go with the shirt thing above, JM might have been attempting to set RAT up as the perp for Fairfax and MH. But it wouldn't have worked. When they ran DNA on AM's shirt, if JM had touched it, they would have either gotten a third (or more) DNA that didn't match RAT or AM and 1) left it at that, scratching their heads or 2) matched it with Fairfax and MH. So, then, two things: 1) RAT is accused of MH and Fairfax or 2) they know now RAT and the Fairfax/MH perp know each other. Would he have thought that all through? Was there more DNA on the shirt? Or was he smart enough to use - oh, hey - his hospital gloves to touch it?

 

[ksj3]

Was RAT's DNA found in AM's car? At all?

 

[thref23]

Hmm....alright guys here I where I find the shirt interesting...it might not have simply been an attempt to frame, but an attempt to re-do the MH murder (or at least redo the taunting part) and correct his big mistake.


How would the shirt get in his camper? Maybe JM gave it to him and told him he had planted someone else's blood or DNA? Anyways, I don't really think the shirt was JM's work, but I find the direction of this discussion quite interesting because below is what I was almost about to post in one of the HG threads. This is not only a more low key (and speculation friendly) spot for the post, but there may actually be a connection to RAT; I found in previous threads that RAT was known to have lived, at some point, in Charleston SC near where Brittanee Drexel's cell phone was presumed to have been disposed of with or without her, and that there was even some distant speculation in the past regarding whether RAT could have been involved with another attempted abduction in Myrtle Beach where the 'main' suspect was described as a 'heavyset black man with a mustache and goatee.' What I had been thinking about posting, ready to copy and paste:


So I feel like I have had a revelation or two. First, to elaborate on previous observations re: Brittanee Drexel vs. Morgan Harrington:


- It is presumed that MH disappeared (accepted a ride or was abducted) at about 9:30 pm. Evidence in the BD case suggests she either accepted a ride or was abducted (by someone in a vehicle) between 9:00 and 9:10 pm or so.


- MH's body was found on farm land about 10 miles away from where she was likely abducted. BD's phone pinged very briefly, 24 hours after her disappearance, in a rural area at a slight distance from Myrtle Beach where there were many farms.


- MH was abducted immediately following what apeared to be a break in the BD case (relating to that last ping). The attempted abduction in Myrtle Beach was reported as having occurred on July 22, 2010, weeks after authorities released the sketch in the MH case. One of the suspects in the (alleged) attempted abduction - the "main one" according to the victim at this link was described as a 'heavyset black man with a mustache and a goatee.' Note that the guy arrested in that case was later cleared, and authorities are still presumably looking for a man who looks like him.


- In the BD case, authorities were able to track her whereabouts somewhat by following cell phone pings, and the final ping in the midst of farmland became public knowledge around October 15th or 16th, 2009 I believe. MH was abducted on October 17, and assuming JM abducted her, one of the first things he is alleged to have done was to dispose of her cell phone.


Have you guys come across this article linked in the [HG] Psych thread? I love that it isn't one of the many articles out there that simply describe psychopaths & narcissists etc without really making a clear distinction between a psychopath and a rapist and a serial killer (and a psychopathic rapist, etc).


http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Four-types-of-serial-rapists-what-makes-them-3159973.php

*Reassurance-seeking rapist: Believed to be the most common serial type,


[...snipped...]


This type of perpetrator is driven to compulsive behavior by deep feelings of inadequacy - not necessarily sexual inadequacy. Usually, he is shy, a loner, an underachiever who may feel dominated by his regular partner.


Almost anything can trigger the need to prove his worth - a breakup with a girlfriend, an unfavorable work evaluation, a suggestion that he might be gay. Rape offers the illusion of complete control, obtained either by a weapon, physical or verbal intimidation or drugging.

Speculation: I am personally inclined to believe that JM was responsible for BD's disappearance (and the attempted abduction as well). Everytime LE made notable progress towards solving one of his crimes, he took it personally, and seeked to reaffirm himself by learning from his experience and re-doing the crime. Between the MH sketch and the failed abduction (he couldn't operate in VA after the MH sketch was released) that had to eat him up, he had decided that his days of abduction/murder were, for the most part, over, and he turned to his new gf for affirmation. But he continued to obsess over 'the one who got away.' Recently, without his gf he likely had an intense need to reaffirm himself, and there was just enough resemblance between HG & RM (the subject of the abduction attempt) such that in his head, she was 'her.' And she happened to be alone and vulnerable. It was purely compulsive this last time around, IMO. I don't know that he was in MB at the right times, and I have no clue how to explain the additional van passengers in the failed abduction attempt. But I really think that everything adds up perfectly besides that...


So, back to the shirt...(eta) the shirt was MH redux and HG was RM redux? This is getting too big to seem possible but it's crazy that it actually makes sense (theoretically).

 

[Soulmagent]

I cannot get behind this theory.

The only dna from anyone in the camper was RAT and AM. RAT's DNA was not found in AM's car.
JMs mother was living at wells road not JM. JM has lived in his apartment. I believe some the time with a girlfriend.

How did they only find 2 peoples DNA in a 30 year old camper? i dunno but I think it had something to do with it being scrubbed down after Samantha's case. I noted how clean the camper appeared to be when it was pulled out of the overgrown front yard with the woods all around it when it was loaded on the Roll back that drove it off to impound.Even the tires are clean.
Had me thinking RAT might have pulled it to a carwash, out and cleaned it often ,except he didnt know how fast the FBI would be on him in Alexis's case.

 

[ksj3]

I cannot get behind this theory.

The only dna from anyone in the camper was RAT and AM. RAT's DNA was not found in AM's car.
JMs mother was living at wells road not JM. JM has lived in his apartment. I believe some the time with a girlfriend.

How did they only find 2 peoples DNA in a 30 year old camper? i dunno but I think it had something to do with it being scrubbed down after Samantha's case. I noted how clean the camper appeared to be when it was pulled out of the overgrown front yard with the woods all around it when it was loaded on the Roll back that drove it off to impound.Even the tires are clean.
Had me thinking RAT might have pulled it to a carwash, out and cleaned it often ,except he didnt know how fast the FBI would be on him in Alexis's case.

So the only place they found "unidentified" DNA was AM's car? Not RAT's camper? And not RAT's shirt? But RAT's DNA isn't in AM's car?

 

[ThinkHard]

Oh, golly, the shirt. Now I think you're really getting somewhere. He would have known - two sets of DNA - perp and victim. His (JM's) isn't (wasn't) in the system so a third one wouldn't matter. They wouldn't know whose it was. If LE realizes RAT was involved, they find the shirt and immediately he's suspect #1.

So, AM's blood was on the back of RAT's shirt. Possible scenario: RAT is in the room when AM is killed, but had his back turned. (But then the murder is not JM's known MO - but they're investigating the shooting death of a couple related to him, so maybe he is a known gun carrier). JM demands it as protection, or death to RAT or RAT's son. RAT gives it up willingly, thinking nothing will ever come of it, or even if it does, that's better than the alternative.

Someone - oldwindow? - stated that RAT's trailer was under covert surveillance from the time of the first search until RAT was in custody. If so, that makes this much more difficult - but that JM went back and planted the shirt. Maybe RAT was starting to talk to LE and JM was getting scared. If it was under surveillance, that would have been impossible. Or, maybe JM really did hide it in the couch like someone else mentioned such that RAT wasn't aware it was there (in the days following AM's disappearance, before LE was on to RAT).....so it wasn't easily seen on the first search but was there all along, and JM had put it there without RAT realizing. LE interviewed RAT on 8/5. AM disappeared on 8/3. JM had all day 8/4 to get it there.

We know RAT took a cab back to his house at 10:30 pm on 8/4, so JM could have been there while RAT was gone, knowing he was going to meet him soon, at Woods Mill or even at his own house on Wells Lane. http://www.roanoke.com/news/virgini...cle_f9454c8a-d6c2-52ad-8921-a7b388169bfd.html

Yep, just thinking out loud and JMO. But, wow.

ETA: We know there is unidentified DNA in AM's car (of course, other people would have ridden in it, but I know some

ETA #2: I think my theory is a bust. First, how does the whole CODIS system work that they matched the DNA on MH's shirt to the Fairfax rape? Are they actively running all DNA against just that one crime since she survived, until they find a hit? Or do they actively run all DNA against every crime, meaning JM's DNA doesn't match any other cases (but why, then, would they be NOW checking him against other ones...?)? What caused them to match MH and Fairfax?

If we go with the shirt thing above, JM might have been attempting to set RAT up as the perp for Fairfax and MH. But it wouldn't have worked. When they ran DNA on AM's shirt, if JM had touched it, they would have either gotten a third (or more) DNA that didn't match RAT or AM and 1) left it at that, scratching their heads or 2) matched it with Fairfax and MH. So, then, two things: 1) RAT is accused of MH and Fairfax or 2) they know now RAT and the Fairfax/MH perp know each other. Would he have thought that all through? Was there more DNA on the shirt? Or was he smart enough to use - oh, hey - his hospital gloves to touch it?

My thoughts on CODIS and DNA are that JM's unidentified DNA was entered into the system after the Fairfax rape case. Morgan's parents pushed really hard to have DNA run against CODIS as well as having a familial match run. It was also a really high profile case with few suspects. I'm under the impression it can take up to 8 months to get results and its expensive. From how I understand it, they run say the sample from Morgans shirt in CODIS against all other samples in CODIS and they get a match.

However they never officially said it was the ONLY case there was a match too, or definitively that there where no other cases who's DNA matched. Even if they knew Morgan matched DNA found in multiple other cases...they still wouldn't know who they were looking for as a suspect. The Fairfax case however produced a sketch...the police needed to tell us how they knew that sketch was connected, so we found out about Fairfax. I doubt they would want to announce the fact that they may in fact have a serial killer on there hands.

Also I've considered the fact that in order to have matches in CODIS to other cases...you actually need to run those samples. In AM's case I'm not convinced, with so much circumstantial evidence against RT, that they would have bothered to run those samples, and wait the 8 months for the results. I also wonder how many times DNA isn't run when the case isn't being taken as a priority by LE. Meaning not only is it not compared to other cases, but is likely not even entered into the system.

And then there is just all those girls, gone without a trace...no Body...no DNA

 

[Aeronomy]

Was RAT's DNA found in AM's car? At all?

Nope. Zero. Yet, unknown DNA was found.

 

[Aeronomy]

So the only place they found "unidentified" DNA was AM's car? Not RAT's camper? And not RAT's shirt? But RAT's DNA isn't in AM's car?

No.

Other than her car, unknown MALE DNA was also located on a pair of shorts in RAT's camper that had blood splatter on it.

The only confirmed DNA from blood on RATs shirt belonged to Alexis.

 

[Samdonite]

There is a lot of unknown male dna in many crucial areas of RAT case. Investigators have said they would take a look at it at RAT attorney request. It is a double edged sword for investigators as they likely face a shitstorm if JM dna found.

 

[ThinkHard]

There is a lot of unknown male dna in many crucial areas of RAT case. Investigators have said they would take a look at it at RAT attorney request. It is a double edged sword for investigators as they likely face a shitstorm if JM dna found.

I agree. If you look at RT timeline, from the time Alexis went missing to the time the trial started...it was a fairly short window....meaning they were able to compile enough evidence and build a case against him and progress forward and go through the entire legal process within about 12 months.

If CODIS takes 8 months...they would have gotten the results after they had pretty much had the case all ready for court...if the CODIS results had a match....it would blow the entire "story" they created around what evidence they had on RT. it would mean going back to square one, and trying to see how that info fit into the scenario...it could also create "reasonable doubt" and RT would have gotten off....

for these very reasons I don't think LE ever bothered to test that DNA against CODIS!

...Not when they already had RT hanging by a noose in the court of public opinion and a plethora of circumstantial evidence...no sir...they wanted to "solve" and close that case as fast as they could!

 

[themom]

Was RAT's DNA found in AM's car? At all?

No. Not a single cell of RAT.

 

[ksj3]

I agree. If you look at RT timeline, from the time Alexis went missing to the time the trial started...it was a fairly short window....meaning they were able to compile enough evidence and build a case against him and progress forward and go through the entire legal process within about 12 months.

If CODIS takes 8 months...they would have gotten the results after they had pretty much had the case all ready for court...if the CODIS results had a match....it would blow the entire "story" they created around what evidence they had on RT. it would mean going back to square one, and trying to see how that info fit into the scenario...it could also create "reasonable doubt" and RT would have gotten off....

for these very reasons I don't think LE ever bothered to test that DNA against CODIS!

...Not when they already had RT hanging by a noose in the court of public opinion and a plethora of circumstantial evidence...no sir...they wanted to "solve" and close that case as fast as they could!

So what's the difference between CODIS and whatever they did to determine that the blood on the shirt was Alexis'? They had DNA evidence back within a week for her, and within a week for JM this time, and some articles state they could have matched JM's DNA to the MH/Fairfax cases "in an afternoon." I'm so confused! How long does this really take and are there two different types of testing going on - one inputting unknown DNA into a system of unknown DNA's to determine a "hit" and another of determining whether or not unknown Sample A matches control/known Sample B?

 

[ksj3]

Too, if RAT's (or at least his attorney's) story of events is true - that party C (unknown male) was at the trailer, whom they said was Damien Brown/Bradley, would his DNA not have been found in RAT's camper? I know soulmagent said it was "clean," but you can't truly clean away that much DNA, can you? What about the sheets? The mattress? Did any crime actually take place INSIDE the camper? There were items found inside the camper, but no DNA found ON items inside the camper (walls, floor, couch, table, mattress, etc.)?

So doesn't that mean, perhaps, not even Alexis was ever inside that camper, much less any third party? Or am I completely not understanding how all this works?

 

[ThinkHard]

So what's the difference between CODIS and whatever they did to determine that the blood on the shirt was Alexis'? They had DNA evidence back within a week for her, and within a week for JM this time, and some articles state they could have matched JM's DNA to the MH/Fairfax cases "in an afternoon." I'm so confused! How long does this really take and are there two different types of testing going on - one inputting unknown DNA into a system of unknown DNA's to determine a "hit" and another of determining whether or not unknown Sample A matches control/known Sample B?

Its different because they were comparing two direct samples together....DNA found and RT DNA....much quicker to compare two samples then one against a system with over 9 million possibilities.

Running a sample through CODIS is completely different, then comparing two samples against each other. Does that make sense?

 

[ksj3]

Another question, and I'm sorry if this has been answered a gazillion times in the RAT/AM threads, but did RAT have any visible injuries when he was questioned a mere two days later?

"Investigators questioned Taylor on Aug. 5 about his whereabouts on the two days prior; Taylor said he went to Madison Heights to buy marijuana but would not give up the name of a “mystery friend” in the drug transaction, Martin said. He told investigators he took the cab back to Nelson County because a friend had passed out, Martin said.
On the night of Aug. 11, “armed with new information” from DNA results, Martin said investigators again questioned Taylor and arrested him. Martin said at one point Taylor said, “you might as well take me in because I’m getting tired.”" http://www.roanoke.com/news/virgini...cle_f9454c8a-d6c2-52ad-8921-a7b388169bfd.html

From the above, too, the DNA results (assuming on the earring, etc. that were found) came back in six days, as they first searched his apartment on 8/5 and didn't find the shirt until 8/12.

 

[ksj3]

Its different because they were comparing two direct samples together....DNA found and RT DNA....much quicker to compare two samples then one against a system with over 9 million possibilities.

Running a sample through CODIS is completely different, then comparing two samples against each other. Does that make sense?

It does. Thanks. That's what I was wondering.

So, are we safe to assume, then, that since LE is investigating JM in the cases they've announced that they do, in fact, have CODIS hits in those cases? They just need to build the cases?

 

[ThinkHard]

It does. Thanks. That's what I was wondering.

So, are we safe to assume, then, that since LE is investigating JM in the cases they've announced that they do, in fact, have CODIS hits in those cases? They just need to build the cases?

Not necessarily. I doubt even in some of those cases where there was DNA, but little pressure for the crime to be solved, that the DNA they did have was ever run through CODIS. Its time consuming and expensive. And sadly LE tends to hold bias towards certain type of victims, they should treat every case with the same in depth investigation...but we all know they don't.

Additionally if they do have unidentified DNA in some of these cases, they do not have to run it through CODIS now, they just have to compare it to JM's DNA sample....and yes this is much quicker.
I don't know if JM's DNA will match....but its been over 2 weeks and no word...

I'm of the opinion that if it was a positive match, that LE would want to keep that under wraps while they build their cases against JM....you could also argue that they want to keep it under wraps to not create an intense community biased in this case, and allow Camblos grounds for requesting a change of venue.

However if they were negative...I would think both Camblos and LE would be shouting this from the rooftops......LE looks less and less on top of their game the more cases they can pin on JM because they were unable to catch him for SO long....Camblos I believe would love to PROVE his client isn't involved in nearly as many cases as we suspect!

 

[Soulmagent]

No.

Other than her car, unknown MALE DNA was also located on a pair of shorts in RAT's camper that had blood splatter on it.

The only confirmed DNA from blood on RATs shirt belonged to Alexis.

I have not heard about unknown male DNA on his shorts.

I remember in court there being questions about why there was not other DNA found ,even thought they didnt find his exes, or sons DNA and they expected it. It wasnt there.

I missed some early morning testimony so maybe I didnt hear about the short thing due to that,is there a link somewhere?

 

[ksj3]

Not necessarily. I doubt even in some of those cases where there was DNA, but little pressure for the crime to be solved, that the DNA they did have was ever run through CODIS. Its time consuming and expensive. And sadly LE tends to hold bias towards certain type of victims, they should treat every case with the same in depth investigation...but we all know they don't.

Additionally if they do have unidentified DNA in some of these cases, they do not have to run it through CODIS now, they just have to compare it to JM's DNA sample....and yes this is much quicker.
I don't know if JM's DNA will match....but its been over 2 weeks and no word...

I'm of the opinion that if it was a positive match, that LE would want to keep that under wraps while they build their cases against JM....you could also argue that they want to keep it under wraps to not create an intense community biased in this case, and allow Camblos grounds for requesting a change of venue.

However if they were negative...I would think both Camblos and LE would be shouting this from the rooftops......LE looks less and less on top of their game the more cases they can pin on JM because they were unable to catch him for SO long....Camblos I believe would love to PROVE his client isn't involved in nearly as many cases as we suspect!

However, if negative, and therefore exculpatory, LE has to provide that to the defense IIRC. And, yes, I believe the defense would be shouting that from the rooftops particularly since it's been published in MSM that they are actively pursuing those investigations as relates to JM's possible involvement. We know the testing on AM's car isn't back yet, though, and it's been since 10/22.