Possible Victim: Valerie Mack, 24, Manorville Jane Doe #6, missing 2000, found Nov 2000 & Gilgo Beach Apr 2011

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Hello inspectr!

I did a little research this am for those killers with possible mother issues.

So far I've learned that Gein, Kemper, Manson, & Bundy had mother/grandmother issues.

Gacy had daddy issues. I haven't been thru the whole list yet.

Here's a link and click on the name for info.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/index.htmlYour post made me stop and think....
I have a former student who is now serving time as a serial rapist. There was no mother or father in his life and he lived with grandma. At age 8 he showed contempt towards women (me) and I was grateful that my teaching partner was a male. His behavior was antisocial as he was either withdrawn or acting out in some way. (This was a self contained classroom for behaviorly and emotionally handicapped children with only 8 students.) I recall thinking to myself back then that I'd be reading about him in the paper one of these days as he was very volatile, like a time bomb waiting to go off! It's too bad because he was a cute and smart lil kid and he could be very charming at times. I wonder if teachers of serial killers noticed signs when they were children? Here's a link of some serial killers pics as children.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/photogallery/killers-as-kids.html?curPhoto=1

wm

Wow, WM, I could have written the above. I worked with a 12 year old boy who was exactly as you described. I've always expected that he would kill women. His mother was very nice but rather weak spirited. His father was gone but had left his mark on his impressionable son. IIRC, the father used to beat the mother in front of him...at some point there was no longer a father in the home.

It was the impression of the staff that the boy blamed his mother for the father being gone. The boy attacked his mother a few times and broke the leg of his older female teacher the year before I worked with him. He would often show no sign of aggression leading up to the attacks. What became a pattern is that he would patiently wait until he found just the right unexpected and apparently unprovoked moment for a very calm blitz attack. He would just quietly walk up and upon being acknowledged he would deliver a powerful hit , whack, or kick. Once, he approached his teacher's desk, lifted and pretended to thumb through a hardback complete Webster's Dictionary. Without any warning, he brought that book down on the head of his teacher. She was grading papers during independent study time. After striking her he calmly sat down. Needless to say: he was escorted to the principles office and suspended for three days.
 
Wow, WM, I could have written the above. I worked with a 12 year old boy who was exactly as you described. I've always expected that he would kill women. His mother was very nice but rather weak spirited. His father was gone but had left his mark on his impressionable son. IIRC, the father used to beat the mother in front of him...at some point there was no longer a father in the home.

It was the impression of the staff that the boy blamed his mother for the father being gone. The boy attacked his mother a few times and broke the leg of his older female teacher the year before I worked with him. He would often show no sign of aggression leading up to the attacks. What became a pattern is that he would patiently wait until he found just the right unexpected and apparently unprovoked moment for a very calm blitz attack. He would just quietly walk up and upon being acknowledged he would deliver a powerful hit , whack, or kick. Once, he approached his teacher's desk, lifted and pretended to thumb through a hardback complete Webster's Dictionary. Without any warning, he brought that book down on the head of his teacher. She was grading papers during independent study time. After striking her he calmly sat down. Needless to say: he was escorted to the principles office and suspended for three days.

OT
It is certainly not a career choice for the faint of heart is it? And the pay sux!;) wm
 
Just K and waltzingmatilda,

Your convo about teaching and difficult students got me wondering if there are any teachers out there who recognize a former student(s) in any of the LI perp profiles?

With your teaching backgrounds, how do you think the LI perp might of acted in school?

slim
 
Hi slim, The student I wrote about above was either throwing a chair at me, totally shutting me out and ignoring me or trying to manipulate me with charm to get his way. He was the cutest little brown boy but he had issues with caucasian women. He told me once, "I don't have to listen to no white lady teacher." I told him no you don't but people are like m&m's as we are all different colors on the outside but on the inside we all look the same and that I planned to bring in M&m's as a reward for fun Friday for us to sort and graph and then eat. He still refused to comply with my requests and was not able to participate in fun Friday m&m project. But he sure tried to charm and sweet talk his way in at the last minute. His victims that he raped, beat and robbed years later were all caucasian women.

The signs I saw in him when he was 8 years old that concerned me were......

contempt for women/authority
antisocial behavior
lack of empathy for others
anger
volatile
manipulitave
lack of friendships with peers
isolation in the home environment with grandma (we made home visits)

Hope this helps give a little insight tho I am sure that all serial criminals show myriad behaviors as children that could be considered red flags.

MOO

wm
 
Thanks waltzingmatilda!

One of the big stumbling blocks I have had is trying to picture the LI perp as a kid. Every time I try, I default into thinking of him as an adult.

This is great insight! I'm sure everyone will find it useful and helpful. I wouldn't be surprised if the LI perp was a rapist before he became a murderer too.

slim
 
Found this old article about Jane Doe #6 (2000 Manorville):
http://www.doenetwork.org/media/news18.html

Interesting points include the fact that SCPD, LT Fitzpatrick, opted to withhold publicity on the tattoo found on JD. To date, it seems, that the tattoo has never been shown to the public.
 
Found this old article about Jane Doe #6 (2000 Manorville):
http://www.doenetwork.org/media/news18.html

Interesting points include the fact that SCPD, LT Fitzpatrick, opted to withhold publicity on the tattoo found on JD. To date, it seems, that the tattoo has never been shown to the public.

The more I read about SCPD the less faith I have that this case will ever be solved. :(
 
I find it frustrating that nobody here is interested in talking about an organization with direct, clear-as-day ties to Cedar/Gilgo Beach, Halsey Manor Rd. and burlap. I have presented this group with the online evidence for these connections, and reported these connections to police. I think I'll be taking a break from posting given the lack of attention or interest in this angle of inquiry, which I feel is far stronger than any theory promulgated to-date. Please PM me if you would like to discuss my POI, who has a family background consisting of extreme family violence and abuse.
 
IG, this case is so prolific and has covered the space of nearly two decades. Whoever is responsible knows that LE has not set a high priority on locating Missing prostitutes or Identifying/matching DNA of the IUD to the national database of missing persons.

After reading the hundreds of case details on just the missing young to middle aged adults, just in NY, it is obvious that many of the missing people have DNA on file or available. It would seem that more of these UID remains & bodies would be matched. Unless they are not legal citizens or reported missing persons, of course. It was surprising to read of the many cases, like AC, where the person was not reported missing for months and even years.

The killer and/or killers knows/know that these people, that he sees as "throw away people," are not given much if any priority. He/they use that to their advantage.

I still can't shake the feeling that whoever is responsible for these killings is walking either among an organized group or along the fringes of other criminals or criminal activity.
 
Bumping for Jane Doe 2000's thread.

Please note inspctrgadget's very intriguing theory and mad research skillz!
 
It occurred to me last night that maybe Jane Doe #6 is foreign and that's why it's been so difficult to find a match for her in the U.S. missing persons databases. Does anyone know if there is a similar database online of missing/trafficked women who were not born in the U.S.? I haven't been able to find anything so far.
 
It occurred to me last night that maybe Jane Doe #6 is foreign and that's why it's been so difficult to find a match for her in the U.S. missing persons databases. Does anyone know if there is a similar database online of missing/trafficked women who were not born in the U.S.? I haven't been able to find anything so far.


Here is a link to “The Doe Network”:

The Doe Network
International Center for Unidentified & Missing Persons
http://www.doenetwork.org/
 
I went to art school. We learned to draw faces and the proportions. The average person's lower lip is bigger than their upper lip (not including plastic surgery ; )). So it is interesting that both these sketches have larger upper lips.

SBM - Thanks Susan1122!!! I knew there was something that bugged me about those sketches, and that is it! The upper lip does look out of proportion.

@Themare, even though it is probably not her, I think you did a great job with noticing some similarities between the sketch and Suzanne Lyall! Your find, along with observations like those of Susan1122 is why I love Websleuths. A lot of brains working together often produce interesting results.
 
As an artist, I just wonder if the same person drew these sketches. Thus giving some unconsciously done similarities.
I do not think it is Suzanne Lyall, Jane Doe 2000 forehead is much higher and the top lips do not match. The top lip not matching, meh I can see that portion being an artists interpretation. The forehead you really cannot push, facts are facts. So, imo if they did match I would say they have a high degree of likeness.
 
As an artist, I just wonder if the same person drew these sketches. Thus giving some unconsciously done similarities.
I do not think it is Suzanne Lyall, Jane Doe 2000 forehead is much higher and the top lips do not match. The top lip not matching, meh I can see that portion being an artists interpretation. The forehead you really cannot push, facts are facts. So, imo if they did match I would say they have a high degree of likeness.

I think you're correct. the lips on the Asian male sketch are also similar


imgres
 
Hello inspectr!

I did a little research this am for those killers with possible mother issues.

So far I've learned that Gein, Kemper, Manson, & Bundy had mother/grandmother issues.

Gacy had daddy issues. I haven't been thru the whole list yet.

Here's a link and click on the name for info.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/index.html

Your post made me stop and think....
I have a former student who is now serving time as a serial rapist. There was no mother or father in his life and he lived with grandma. At age 8 he showed contempt towards women (me) and I was grateful that my teaching partner was a male. His behavior was antisocial as he was either withdrawn or acting out in some way. (This was a self contained classroom for behaviorly and emotionally handicapped children with only 8 students.) I recall thinking to myself back then that I'd be reading about him in the paper one of these days as he was very volatile, like a time bomb waiting to go off! It's too bad because he was a cute and smart lil kid and he could be very charming at times. I wonder if teachers of serial killers noticed signs when they were children? Here's a link of some serial killers pics as children.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/photogallery/killers-as-kids.html?curPhoto=1

wm


PSYCHIATRIC TIMES
MARCH 2006
Serial Murder: A Forensic Psychiatric Perspective
by James Knoll, MD
http://www.upstate.edu/psych/education/fellowships/pdf/serial_murder.pdf

“Psychodynamically oriented inves-
tigators have theorized that a sexually
provocative mother may contribute to
the formation of a serial murderer (Fox
and Levin, 1994; Meloy, 2002). It is
important to note that this premise is
far from another “blaming of the
mother” theory. Rather, investigators
point to documented instances of strik-
ingly inappropriate sexual behavior on
the part of the mother that in some cases
would easily qualify as sexual abuse.
Evaluations of some convicted serial
murderers suggest that a displacement
of aggression from their mothers onto
to their female victims was present
during their offenses."
 
Can anybody tell if what we're looking at on the ground is plain burlap? This is from the duck hunter website. As we know, bodies were found 50 miles apart at the two exact locations where this group operates (Peconic River Gun Club in Manorville and Cedar Beach). This image is REALLY creepy to me.

The more I think about the whole burlap thing, the more I'm absolutely convinced that this was a duck hunter. Burlap is used so extensively as camo in this sport, and that's really the only functional reason to wrap a body in burlap - to prevent aerial identification from avian predators and helicopters. The killer believed strongly (and correctly) that no human would ever have a reason to walk 15-30 feet back in those shrubs, and he was right. Without Blue, these women would never have been found. He was comfortable using burlap even though it could be tied back to his sport, and possibly even himself.

Image can also be found here:
http://sswa.org/GallerySlideshow.aspx?ID=18&ImgID=317
 

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Can anybody tell if what we're looking at on the ground is plain burlap? This is from the duck hunter website. As we know, bodies were found 50 miles apart at the two exact locations where this group operates (Peconic River Gun Club in Manorville and Cedar Beach). This image is REALLY creepy to me.

The more I think about the whole burlap thing, the more I'm absolutely convinced that this was a duck hunter. Burlap is used so extensively as camo in this sport, and that's really the only functional reason to wrap a body in burlap - to prevent aerial identification from avian predators and helicopters. The killer believed strongly (and correctly) that no human would ever have a reason to walk 15-30 feet back in those shrubs, and he was right. Without Blue, these women would never have been found. He was comfortable using burlap even though it could be tied back to his sport, and possibly even himself.

Image can also be found here:
http://sswa.org/GallerySlideshow.aspx?ID=18&ImgID=317

I don't believe that fabric is burlap at all, but that doesn't really matter, there is no doubt the perp is local enough to know that burlap is perfect for camo in this brush area.

You don't want to hear this IG but I have to let you know, I verified the ducks on CPH's steps are indeed wooden decoys, and better yet he owns a flat bottom boat. In this area if those 2 things don't make you a duck hunter... nothing does.
 
You don't want to hear this IG but I have to let you know, I verified the ducks on CPH's steps are indeed wooden decoys, and better yet he owns a flat bottom boat. In this area if those 2 things don't make you a duck hunter... nothing does.
sorry, I saw the video again and still disagree. Yes they are wooden ducks but not. For hunting waterfowl? They are items commonly found in antique stores or home and garden decor stores.

Real decoys that are used for hunting waterfowl from a boat have a weighted keel on the bottom (to allow them to float upright) as well as an eye socket underneath to tie the anchor chord to. Those duck decorations that CPH's wife has collecting dust on her porch would turn belly-up or sink to the bottom if someone attempted to float them as decoys. If you look closer you can see that they aren't even the same species of duck (and there are only two).

Show me a bag of decoys with weights and anchor lines and then you have something worth mentioning.

Question about the float bottomed boat- is it on a trailer or is it lying on the ground?
 

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