Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[Peter Brendt]

He would have staged the AC4 after he put them in the ditch. Easily done, but not quite as private as he thought. The bodies were discovered within a month. The GB4 he staged before he put them at Gilgo. My guess is he had less time on the Parkway and he didn't want to be caught. The burlap at GC4 was for his convenience in moving the bodies and for camouflage, he didn't want them found. Again he laid the first two victims side by side and the third victim to one side and the 4th victim on the other side, always a little further away. Staging the bodies in a row is his signature (or was in 2006-2010.)

You are away, mathematically spoken, that any dumping ground along any linear geometric shape would be a line? Just saying ...

Peter

 

[BKS]

You are away, mathematically spoken, that any dumping ground along any linear geometric shape would be a line? Just saying ...

Peter

Any other SK's laid their victims out in clusters of 4?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Any other SK's laid their victims out in clusters of 4?

Without digging through my files due to lack of time ...
Ted Bundy's Washington State Sites
I think Connecticut River Valley
Godino in Argentina
Quansah in Ghana
Weren't Baumeister's found in groups of four too?

However, groups of four are not the main point. If the police would have discovered Gilgo six months earlier, you would ask me the same about groups of three. Who knows, six month later and you would maybe ask for groups of five. The GB4 weren't dropped all at the same time. MBB was for two years alone there.
Four and stop is much more significant for AC because there, all victims were laid down there in a relative short time.

Peter

 

[nugzter]

Any other SK's laid their victims out in clusters of 4?

Here I have the Cluster maps for Gary Ridgeway (Green River Killer). He had distinct clusters scattered about a fairly large area. After reading bout his clusters, the reason for him to cluster was for sexual satisfaction. He would revisit the clusters and have his way with himself, another victim and even took his wife once, claiming it would spice up their sex life to have sex out doors. Sick-o.

 

[BKS]

In AC he stopped at 4 because they found the last victim within days of her murder. In Gilgo he stopped at 4 for the same reason, the discovery of the bodies. But because of that, a pattern emerges in the way the bodies were placed.

AC4 & GB4

1. Victims were strangled
2. Murder weapon was not found at crime scene.
3. Murdered at another location and then moved to dump site.
4. All victims dumped outdoors along Atlantic coastal region
5. All victims women ages 20-40 (approx.)
7. Victims dumped in clusters
8. Victims had addiction and money issues
9. SK left little evidence at the dump site
10. All victims were prostitutes
11. SK did not try to hide the identity of the victims

Just a few of the similarities.

 

[Peter Brendt]

In AC he stopped at 4 because they found the last victim within days of her murder. In Gilgo he stopped at 4 for the same reason, the discovery of the bodies. But because of that, a pattern emerges in the way the bodies were placed.

AC4 & GB4

1. Victims were strangled
2. Murder weapon was not found at crime scene.
3. Murdered at another location and then moved to dump site.
4. All victims dumped outdoors along Atlantic coastal region
5. All victims women ages 20-40 (approx.)
7. Victims dumped in clusters
8. Victims had addiction and money issues
9. SK left little evidence at the dump site
10. All victims were prostitutes
11. SK did not try to hide the identity of the victims

Just a few of the similarities.

Only quick, because I'm in the middle of a hundred things right now:

- you realize that you have successfully proven the meaninglessness of this pattern of four? As you correct and rightfully pointed out, in both cases the number four per dump site wasn't enforced by the perpetrator but by the fact, the dump sites were compromised. They didn't chose to stop dumping bodies there after four, the simply couldn't.

- The rest of your similarities is the standard picture of most medium or higher organized prostitute killers. If you would put these criteria in a DB, you would get for example Hanson is the killer. We know, he isn't, he is still in prison, I think. There is just nothing tangible, no unique denominator between those cases and the kill speed is too different to be one and the same. Alone that is a KO-criterium. For AC to become the LISK, he would come down from a predator phase to a slow noob phase (not the technical level, the timing is the relevant point). He slows down to 1/50th of his speed and then shows in the end a re-acceleration to two/year? Where have you ever seen such a pattern?

Peter

 

[Redbird]

In AC he stopped at 4 because they found the last victim within days of her murder. In Gilgo he stopped at 4 for the same reason, the discovery of the bodies. But because of that, a pattern emerges in the way the bodies were placed.

AC4 & GB4

1. Victims were strangled
2. Murder weapon was not found at crime scene.
3. Murdered at another location and then moved to dump site.
4. All victims dumped outdoors along Atlantic coastal region
5. All victims women ages 20-40 (approx.)
7. Victims dumped in clusters
8. Victims had addiction and money issues
9. SK left little evidence at the dump site
10. All victims were prostitutes
11. SK did not try to hide the identity of the victims

Just a few of the similarities.

All victims were missing their shoes.

 

[Peter Brendt]

All victims were missing their shoes.

That would be something, but as it looks all GB4 missed all parts of clothing at all or am I wrong?

 

[PickleChris]

Unless the clothes were taken by LE prior to these pictures or the elements destroyed them, I would lean on the clothes not being present.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21134&d=1331242631

2 pics on this page. Although I never found out who's bones these actually are. I doubt that was released.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7654698"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7654698[/ame]

 

[truthspider]

We also have the statement from the man who found the male victim in Manorville early this year saying that the victim was "barefoot" and wrapped in a sheet. This victim may be an example that bridges the gap in MO. Also, a barefoot male would solidify for me that it is a foot fetish that makes the perp takeoff their shoes and not a defense mechanism against high heels.



paging Mr Footsy..........Mr Footsy

 

[Peter Brendt]

We also have the statement from the man who found the male victim in Manorville early this year saying that the victim was "barefoot" and wrapped in a sheet. This victim may be an example that bridges the gap in MO. Also, a barefoot male would solidify for me that it is a foot fetish that makes the perp takeoff their shoes and not a defense mechanism against high heels.



paging Mr Footsy..........Mr Footsy

Well, except for the timeline, the entirely different victomology and that the statement was, "he didn't see shoes" but not "there were no shoes" ... oh my!

This doesn't fill the gap in the different kill speeds, it doesn't fit the gap in the timeline, it doesn't fill any gaps when it comes to motivation and since we have no official COD for that man, it doesn't fill gaps there either.

Peter

 

[BKS]

The pattern of four bodies and how they were dumped is still a pattern. That the SK may have taken a break in his murder spree, that is not unusual. We don't know what happened in the months between November 2006 until July 2007. If he was a suspect or thought he was a suspect in the AC murders, yes he would have laid low. Most likely he spent his time trolling Craigslist or Backpage, setting up "dates" until he found his perfect victim at the perfect time. He was much more careful after AC4. It's not unusual for SK's to change their MO to confuse LE. In fact it's quite common.

 

[Peter Brendt]

The pattern of four bodies and how they were dumped is still a pattern. That the SK may have taken a break in his murder spree, that is not unusual. We don't know what happened in the months between November 2006 until July 2007. If he was a suspect or thought he was a suspect in the AC murders, yes he would have laid low. Most likely he spent his time trolling Craigslist or Backpage, setting up "dates" until he found his perfect victim at the perfect time. He was much more careful after AC4. It's not unusual for SK's to change their MO to confuse LE. In fact it's quite common.

A pattern that is enforced on someona can't be accounted on said someone and therefore never be used to conclude on the behavior of that person.
You talk about changing MO but not about the kill speed. Normally they speed up, not go down to creepy slow. Do the math please: Lisk got four in four years, AC did that in less than two months. Which means, AC was either in the peak phase (but no spiral down murders, as far as I can see), LISK is still in ramp up. So, if by some magic, you found a way how he basically took away 20 years from his career and by that age, I am sure, I would be interested in it ... a lot of people would, I think. It would be like the magic pill and start all over at high school again.

Peter

 

[truthspider]

all of this "usually" and "normally" talk is prone to error. trying to predict the behavior of a someone based off the average behavior of many others is flawed in my opinion. if you are looking for your "average" serial killer, you probably won't find him. Predicting someone's behavior based on the behavior of other's in the past is not guaranteed.

"normally they speed up", or "usually they do x" are dangerous assumptions that will likely lead you away from the truth.

try using maybe and might

 

[BKS]

A pattern is a pattern, turned upside down and backwards, it's still a pattern. The pattern could just be a coincidence, but with so few clues, it's the one thing that is a gut feeling, that I can't dismiss. To throw out all possibilities that these two cases could be related just because of the speed in which the killer worked is, well, just another theory. Some SK's take long breaks depending on what's going on in their lives and whether they have a safe place to kill etc. Also, we don't know that these are his only victims.

 

[BKS]

A pattern that is enforced on someona can't be accounted on said someone and therefore never be used to conclude on the behavior of that person.
You talk about changing MO but not about the kill speed. Normally they speed up, not go down to creepy slow. Do the math please: Lisk got four in four years, AC did that in less than two months. Which means, AC was either in the peak phase (but no spiral down murders, as far as I can see), LISK is still in ramp up. So, if by some magic, you found a way how he basically took away 20 years from his career and by that age, I am sure, I would be interested in it ... a lot of people would, I think. It would be like the magic pill and start all over at high school again.

Peter

The theory that the LISK is now "ramping up" has been disproved in the fact that he hasn't killed (that we know of) in over a year. Maybe, he is "spiraling down."

 

[tmacirish1]

Hello, I am new to the forum. I tried researching some case details, but, from what I have been reading on here, the details in the media are questionable. So I was hoping some of you could answer my questions.

1. How long did the killer spend with his victims?
2. Was there evidence of torture?
3. Were they dismembered/torture pre/peri/post death?
4. Evidence of heavy assault/visceration..etc? If so, where was it concentrated?
5. Any mutilation? Where?
6. When the bodies were dismembered, was it kept together at disposal? Our placed in different places?

But, to throw into the discussion, I don't think that AC and LI are related. I do think that the LI locations are dumpsites for the same killer. The AC killer seems like he'd be a low-class loser that frequented the strip looking for street workers that the working girls have all had plenty of expierience with. His van was probably his abduction/kill site and he would have dumped them behind the hotel after..possibily revisiting because I am sure hes from the pleasantville area. He probably got laid off from a menial job (like many other people from 2004-present) and just had a meltdown. He has probably committed suicide by now. The LI Killer is a lot more intelligent, advanced in his killing fantasy, and dangerous because he has perfected his methodology. He has perfected his art. He is atleast middle class, probably upper-middle. He would not fit in driving around looking for street girls, he'd stick out, but he (like millions of other people) is functional with technology. Plus, with a prepaid cellphone, by just calling them he cuts out the possibility of witnesses. He'd be heavy into violent *advertiser censored*, probably seeing someone, very abusive, and has a resentment towards women that is definetly noticable to the people around him. Depending on the answered above, he could be a sexual sadist, which would be a nightmare within a nightmare for LI.

 

[BKS]

Hello, I am new to the forum. I tried researching some case details, but, from what I have been reading on here, the details in the media are questionable. So I was hoping some of you could answer my questions.

1. How long did the killer spend with his victims?
2. Was there evidence of torture?
3. Were they dismembered/torture pre/peri/post death?
4. Evidence of heavy assault/visceration..etc? If so, where was it concentrated?
5. Any mutilation? Where?
6. When the bodies were dismembered, was it kept together at disposal? Our placed in different places?

But, to throw into the discussion, I don't think that AC and LI are related. I do think that the LI locations are dumpsites for the same killer. The AC killer seems like he'd be a low-class loser that frequented the strip looking for street workers that the working girls have all had plenty of expierience with. His van was probably his abduction/kill site and he would have dumped them behind the hotel after..possibily revisiting because I am sure hes from the pleasantville area. He probably got laid off from a menial job (like many other people from 2004-present) and just had a meltdown. He has probably committed suicide by now. The LI Killer is a lot more intelligent, advanced in his killing fantasy, and dangerous because he has perfected his methodology. He has perfected his art. He is atleast middle class, probably upper-middle. He would not fit in driving around looking for street girls, he'd stick out, but he (like millions of other people) is functional with technology. Plus, with a prepaid cellphone, by just calling them he cuts out the possibility of witnesses. He'd be heavy into violent *advertiser censored*, probably seeing someone, very abusive, and has a resentment towards women that is definetly noticable to the people around him. Depending on the answered above, he could be a sexual sadist, which would be a nightmare within a nightmare for LI.

I am answering these questions as they relate to AC4 & GB4, not the earlier victims from 2000-2003 that were found along Ocean Parkway.

Welcome to the Forum!

#1 We have no idea how long the SK spent with his victims. We do know that in the case of the last AC victim, she was dumped shortly after she was killed. That we do know for a fact as she was seen a few days 2 days before her body was discovered.
#2 In both cases, as far as we know there was no sign of torture, except for the strangulation of all of the victims.
#3 The AC4 and GB4 were not dismembered.
#4 No evidence of heavy assault.
#5 no dismemberment

 

[Peter Brendt]

all of this "usually" and "normally" talk is prone to error. trying to predict the behavior of a someone based off the average behavior of many others is flawed in my opinion. if you are looking for your "average" serial killer, you probably won't find him. Predicting someone's behavior based on the behavior of other's in the past is not guaranteed.

"normally they speed up", or "usually they do x" are dangerous assumptions that will likely lead you away from the truth.

try using maybe and might

In other words, the argument is correct, you don't like it and play now around with words. Fact is, nobody has ever seen an SK killing every other week and then slowing down to every other year. Prove me wrong, bring an example ... oh, I forgot, you don't like behavioral studies anyway. Thus thanks for you "advice" but as of yet, my profiles had a satisfying hit ratio. Notice, that I wrote HIT, not HIT/MISS ...

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

The theory that the LISK is now "ramping up" has been disproved in the fact that he hasn't killed (that we know of) in over a year. Maybe, he is "spiraling down."

That we have no new bodies, doesn't mean, he didn't kill, it means merely, we don't have more bodies found -yet. And the idea, that an SK, just after he accelerated to two in one year, goes into a spiral down is a little bit far fetched, isn't it? So no, if not otherwise hampered, this guy is well and alive, killing his way through life ...
I wonder, if there would be any Craigslist Escorts (or from other such internet ad-services) missing, whether we would hear about it?

Peter