Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[JudgeJudi]

Reeva’s mother hated taking “blood money”.

She and Barry received £340 every month starting in March 2013 but turned down a lump sum of £21,000 from the sale of his car.

They were forced to accept the “blood money” after Barry, 71, suffered a stroke two months after Reeva was killed, and the couple were evicted from their home when their landlord discovered they were bankrupt.

June said: “We didn’t have much choice. We were in such a bad way, we didn’t even have food on the table. It was that or starve”.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reeva-steenkamps-mother-hated-taking-4611101

It was pretty obvious that they were in a dire situation when news came out that Reeva was going to pay for their cable TV to be reconnected so they could see the new reality show she was in. This wouldn't be expensive in SA so it sounds like they were pretty destitute even before she died. I can't begin to imagine how gut-wrenching it would be to accept any money from their daughter's killer.

 

[foxbluff]

Tashas' All White Party - Evening of January 26, 2013. Oh to be able to turn back the clock...


With Hayden Griger and Oscar Pistorius

Now for something funny. While someone was taking a crisp shot of an arb balcony in the distance, Oscar Pistorius, his friend Hayden Giger and I decided to photobomb her pic. Here we are all bleary in the foreground pretending the lens was meant for us.

hee hee!! Ok, so the photo bombing bit isn’t true, it’s just a lousy shot but I did have the pleasure of meeting him. I’ve done about three blog posts on SA’a legend Blade Runner in the past so meeting him was a dream come true. And Oh My Word! he is the most beautiful, humble soul you have ever had the pleasure of sharing breathing space with. Afterward, Karisa and I spent the entire night planning her wedding and my extra-marital liaisons – both with him.(No disrespect intended but is he really is lovely and we would do anything to…

At this stage anything else paled in comparison to meeting Oscar. We retreated to a quiet corner to scoff on gourmet mini burgers, hot french fries and the most tempting desserts. I think Leigh had a macaroon in each hand at some stage, nibbling on both at the same time. I, on the other hand, fell madly in love with Tasha’s frozen yoghurt. I figured if I couldn’t take Oscar home with me, there’s no point to life and I’ll just eat my way through a miserable existence.

http://andlollipops.com/2013/01/28/tashas-melrose-arch-birthday-party/

 

[Interested Bystander]

BIB
Ooops, did I hear correctly?... I read, "... the Guardian is also known to have a huge left wing bias..."

I'm ssoooo confused. By "also" did you mean the Daily Mail is "also" another tabloid with a left wing bias or that it's only left wing tabloids/newspapers that are unreliable, since last time I looked at anything minimally political in it, and I admit that was a looooong time ago, the Daily Mail was still at least as right wing as the tories and it sure is infamously unreliable. ; - )

No, my bad grammar. As you well know there are right and left wing tabloids. My point was that the Guardian, of all the quality papers, is very left wing but that it would not affect this story.

 

[Fuskier]

... <respectfully snipped> ...

Reading a thought along similar lines from June makes me wonder if she believes the earwitness testimony about the pause between shots. That pause just haunts me - so much can happen in a second or two and it fits perfectly with Reeva's death being the result of an argument. Makes my heart break all over again for Reeva, her family and her friends.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...ar-pistorius-killed-her-daughter-9852187.html

&#8220;Not one of his actions suggests he felt protective towards her. They had a fight, a horrible argument, and she fled to the bathroom with her mobile and locked the door.
&#8220;I think he may have shot once and then he had to go on and kill her because she would have been able to tell the world what really happened, what he is really like.&#8221;

BIB: "The pause between shots"
This is significant and makes a great deal of sense IMO.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

His cell is reportedly two metres by three metres in size with a small cupboard, a bed, a washbasin and a toilet. He has no TV or access to a mobile phone, and shares a shower room with another prisoner in the adjoining cell.

Pistorius was instructed to remain quiet after he initially spent several days crying and reportedly sobbing himself to sleep.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/no-early-exit-prison-oscar-pistorius-due-his-prosthetic-legs-1474131

If he keeps this up and gets his fellow inmates offside they'll give him a bit more to cry about. I've never heard of a male (I can't call him a man) crying like this ... under ANY circumstances. OP has many lessons to learn about life and I don't think he's even started down that road yet.

Almost defies belief that this is the same hero of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games - the same "hero" too "terrified" to turn on the lights, the same "hero" who hid behind his 9mm, trying to "protect" Reeva.

He makes me want to puke.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Almost defies belief that this is the same hero of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games - the same "hero" too "terrified" to turn on the lights, the same "hero" who hid behind his 9mm, trying to "protect" Reeva.

He makes me want to puke.

I watched a video of him at the Olympics yesterday. There was no startle when the gun went off. Everything he uttered in court and backed up by Derman was just so much codswallop. It makes me sick. The massive backlash against him for the execution is made so much worse because of all his lies, attitude, lack of remorse, coupled with the fact that he can't take the fact that he's in prison for what he's done and is still crying ... for himself. I wonder what Masipa would make of this - that he's still crying over Reeva perhaps. Yeah, right. He was then and continues to be crying for himself.

 

[G.bng]

No, my bad grammar. As you well know there are right and left wing tabloids. My point was that the Guardian, of all the quality papers, is very left wing but that it would not affect this story.

Thanx, IB. Since I know you to be a UKanian (not to be confused with Ukranian) I was pretty sure it was just you had gotten yourself in a bit of a textual knot but I understood what you meant and I was just playfully pulling your leg... cross my heart no criticism or reprobation intended. ; &#9679; )

PS:
Just noticed JJ has kindly posted me a link to a list of the British press showing their political orientations to clarify my confusion... lol!

 

[G.bng]

Lol! None taken

&#10122;I cannot agree, though, that the merits of Judge Greenwood's opinion are dependent on, and cannot be evaluated prior to, the opinion of the Appeal Court.

&#10122; I fully agree with you. I never said, or never meant to, that Greenland's opinion shouldn't be evaluated whether pre or post Appeal Court.Either I misunderstood you (sorry if I did!) or you did me. I agree, all opinions should be evaluated, absolutely no problem with that not least because I do it all the time! My comment was because reading your reply I understood you to be affirming that the "faults" in Masipa's judgement were facts not just opinions. So yes, we will all evaluate away because that's what constructive debate is all about.

Apart from the fact that Masipa's rather alarming &#10123; findings of fact are likely to stay put, &#10124; who is to say that the Appeal Court judges won't be as batty as her?

&#10123; IDK, but not so sure all of Masipa's findings of fact will stay put since the State is pleading the appeal court evaluate whether she applied accepted principles for evaluating circumstantial evidence and if they find she didn't, something will have to change.

&#10124; Maybe you need to have a tad more trust? The appeal court is made up of some of the most erudite judges in the country and will have to reason in writing each and every finding they make so it would be difficult for them to come out with some dodgy reasoning with critics like Grant, de Vos, and others watching closely on.

&#10125; I, for one, am encouraged by the knowledge that there is at least one member of the judiciary out there who seems to have retained his common sense and is not too faint-hearted to speak up when the majority of the public is feeling disheartened.

&#10125; I understand how you feel but AFAICS, and IMBW, since a short spurt of criticisms after the judgement, precisely when people began to feel disheartened, Judge Greenland has not really been "speaking up", and indeed he fully endorsed Masipa's sentence on his own FB page:

Chris Greenland
21 October at 09:51
Well done Judge Masipa. Your reasons for sentence were exceptionally clear, informative and understandable. In particular your reasons were judicial; striking the balance that justice demands. Your approach will serve as an example to the whole world that a Judge must act without fear, favour or prejudice. It is the reality that not all will agree with the sentence. However we must agree that it was imposed by a Judge. employing judicial reasoning, not emotive irrationalism, bias or prejudice.

So it doesn't seem he has not of late been actively commenting on the case, and indeed from the post I was replying to it's Greenland who has said that writing his book, "speaking up", would only serve to bring the judicial system into disrepute which does give at least some support to my point. And I take on board what you say but I still strongly believe that judges, acting or ex, should not opine publicly on individual cases least when sub judice since the independence and impartiality of judges is what makes judges trustworthy, respected and even revered so it's too easy for them to sway opinion on the basis of a trust given to them by the very system they would be undermining. JMHO

 

[JudgeJudi]

This was one of Carl&#8217;s tweets yesterday.

Carl Pistorius @carlpistorius &#8226; Nov 10
Pole pole Brother @Lysle_Turner! Shot for being constant. #bloodofmyblood

I wondered what bloodofmyblood meant. Apparently it&#8217;s a book.

Blood of My Blood (I Hunt Killers)

&#8220;Jazz Dent has been shot and left to die in New York City. His girlfriend Connie is in the clutches of Jazz's serial killer father, Billy. And his best friend Howie is bleeding to death on the floor of Jazz's own home in tiny Lobo's Nod. Somehow, these three must rise above the horrors their lives have become and find a way to come together in pursuit of Billy. But then Jazz crosses a line he's never crossed before, and soon the entire country is wondering: "Like father, like son?" Who is the true monster?&#8221;

Ummm .......

 

[Interested Bystander]

I watched a video of him at the Olympics yesterday. There was no startle when the gun went off. Everything he uttered in court and backed up by Derman was just so much codswallop. It makes me sick. The massive backlash against him for the execution is made so much worse because of all his lies, attitude, lack of remorse, coupled with the fact that he can't take the fact that he's in prison for what he's done and is still crying ... for himself. I wonder what Masipa would make of this - that he's still crying over Reeva perhaps. Yeah, right. He was then and continues to be crying for himself.

(Tongue in cheek) I think he may be crying because he has realised his "God" has not toed the line. I wonder what it must feel like to find that the omnipotent, all powerful, has allowed his chosen one to be convicted of anything. OP seemed quite oblivious of the fact that he would get a sentence. He must feel quite let down.

 

[JudgeJudi]

&#10125; I understand how you feel but AFAICS, and IMBW, since a short spurt of criticisms after the judgement, precisely when people began to feel disheartened, Judge Greenland has not really been "speaking up", and indeed he fully endorsed Masipa's sentence on his own FB page:

"Chris Greenland
21 October at 09:51
Well done Judge Masipa. Your reasons for sentence were exceptionally clear, informative and understandable. In particular your reasons were judicial; striking the balance that justice demands. Your approach will serve as an example to the whole world that a Judge must act without fear, favour or prejudice. It is the reality that not all will agree with the sentence. However we must agree that it was imposed by a Judge. employing judicial reasoning, not emotive irrationalism, bias or prejudice".

Greenland who has said that writing his book, "speaking up", would only serve to bring the judicial system into disrepute which does give at least some support to my point. And I take on board what you say but I still strongly believe that judges, acting or ex, should not opine publicly on individual cases least when sub judice since the independence and impartiality of judges is what makes judges trustworthy, respected and even revered so it's too easy for them to sway opinion on the basis of a trust given to them by the very system they would be undermining. JMHO

Judge Greenland was only giving his comments on the sentence Masipa handed down and that it accorded with her judgment. However he totally disagreed with the judgment itself and had quite a bit to say about it.

"The Problem with the Oscar Pistorius Judgment – For Dummies"
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/The-P...mmies-20140928


Chris N Greenland @Chrisng53 • • Sep 12
#JusticeForReevaSteenkamp ---- I join the whole world in lamenting this travesty of justice. The Court failed Reeva.

and the previous day said, "I am gobsmacked".

In an interview with Lisa (Juror 13) he said in part (which I quoted in part on the thread "Awaiting Sentencing Phase", p.12 #291):

" ... the court misdirected itself in applying law, in applying the test known as dolus eventualis because she stated very, very clearly, and indeed that, that she was finding him not guilty on the basis that it could not be found that when he fired he might foresee that he would kill Reeva Steenkamp. That was a misdirection, a complete utter misdirection on her part. The fact that she came back the very next day and changed the wording formulation of that test will not save the misdirection on appeal. As a judicial officer you can correct yourself immediately after you say something because it can be assumed that you just simply either misread your notes or you misstated what you intended to say, but in this case it is obvious that the court made a fundamental mistake, a misdirection in law, and as a result of the hoo-ha that happened that night of all the legal eagles and legal world, then came back and attempt to retrieve the situation. The Appeal Court in my respectful view cannot allow that. It has to say the court made a mistake – it was confused about what test to apply”.

 

[JudgeJudi]

(Tongue in cheek) I think he may be crying because he has realised his "God" has not toed the line. I wonder what it must feel like to find that the omnipotent, all powerful, has allowed his chosen one to be convicted of anything. OP seemed quite oblivious of the fact that he would get a sentence. He must feel quite let down.

I agree. It's never been what he can do for his God, but what his God can do for him. He should remember "Thou shalt not kill".

 

[JudgeJudi]

O/T ... but Gerrie Nel is prosecuting another murder trial due to start tomorrow, 13 November. Nico Henning is accused of masterminding the murder of his estranged wife Chanelle. The 26-year-old was shot dead after dropping off their child at a creche in Pretoria in November 2011. Four people are already serving their sentences in connection with the murder. A friend of Nico and a former Nigerian athlete have both been sentenced to life in prison. Two other men are serving 18 year prison terms after confessing to their roles in the killing.

Nico wanted custody of the child and thought the best way to achieve this was to have her murdered!!!!!

Bail of R10 million has been posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2UltD2q3tY

http://ewn.co.za/2014/02/03/Henning-accused-to-make-full-confession
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...killers-would-tell-all-1.1546317#.VGMIcSxxnBw

I’m hoping they’ll have someone in court so we can follow it on twitter.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Reeva’s mother hated taking “blood money”.

She and Barry received £340 every month starting in March 2013 but turned down a lump sum of £21,000 from the sale of his car.

They were forced to accept the “blood money” after Barry, 71, suffered a stroke two months after Reeva was killed, and the couple were evicted from their home when their landlord discovered they were bankrupt.

June said: “We didn’t have much choice. We were in such a bad way, we didn’t even have food on the table. It was that or starve”.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reeva-steenkamps-mother-hated-taking-4611101

It was pretty obvious that they were in a dire situation when news came out that Reeva was going to pay for their cable TV to be reconnected so they could see the new reality show she was in. This wouldn't be expensive in SA so it sounds like they were pretty destitute even before she died. I can't begin to imagine how gut-wrenching it would be to accept any money from their daughter's killer.

I’m wondering what kind of landlord evicts a destitute elderly couple (one of which has had a stroke) who have just lost their daughter to murder?

 

[kittychi]

BIB
Ooops, did I hear correctly?... I read, "... the Guardian is also known to have a huge left wing bias..."

I'm ssoooo confused. By "also" did you mean the Daily Mail is "also" another tabloid with a left wing bias or that it's only left wing tabloids/newspapers that are unreliable, since last time I looked at anything minimally political in it, and I admit that was a looooong time ago, the Daily Mail was still at least as right wing as the tories and it sure is infamously unreliable. ; - )

Agreed, DM is right wing and their "editing" is unbelievably horrible. Got to give them props for photographs, though. Sometimes they have features that are pretty amazing...Chernobyl, Detroit churches, abandoned mental hospitals...quite fascinating and great photos.

 

[zwiebel]

Help any South Africans around, please! There's a phrase June used in her book to describe Reeva - something like laate laamejite?? I've just managed to delete it while I was looking it up and now cannot refind it or even google it as I'm obviously getting the sp all wrong. I'm guessing itmeans late arrival, or something like that?

It's really urgent and I'm faced with trying to read an entire book very, very quickly to try and find it, so any and all help much appreciated!

 

[jay-jay]

Here you go, Zwiebs .. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/laat+lammetjie

It means a 'child born many years after it's siblings' ('late lamb').

 

[Sherbert]

&#10122; I fully agree with you. I never said, or never meant to, that Greenland's opinion shouldn't be evaluated whether pre or post Appeal Court.Either I misunderstood you (sorry if I did!) or you did me. I agree, all opinions should be evaluated, absolutely no problem with that not least because I do it all the time! My comment was because reading your reply I understood you to be affirming that the "faults" in Masipa's judgement were facts not just opinions. So yes, we will all evaluate away because that's what constructive debate is all about.



&#10123; IDK, but not so sure all of Masipa's findings of fact will stay put since the State is pleading the appeal court evaluate whether she applied accepted principles for evaluating circumstantial evidence and if they find she didn't, something will have to change.

&#10124; Maybe you need to have a tad more trust? The appeal court is made up of some of the most erudite judges in the country and will have to reason in writing each and every finding they make so it would be difficult for them to come out with some dodgy reasoning with critics like Grant, de Vos, and others watching closely on.



&#10125; I understand how you feel but AFAICS, and IMBW, since a short spurt of criticisms after the judgement, precisely when people began to feel disheartened, Judge Greenland has not really been "speaking up", and indeed he fully endorsed Masipa's sentence on his own FB page:



So it doesn't seem he has not of late been actively commenting on the case, and indeed from the post I was replying to it's Greenland who has said that writing his book, "speaking up", would only serve to bring the judicial system into disrepute which does give at least some support to my point. And I take on board what you say but I still strongly believe that judges, acting or ex, should not opine publicly on individual cases least when sub judice since the independence and impartiality of judges is what makes judges trustworthy, respected and even revered so it's too easy for them to sway opinion on the basis of a trust given to them by the very system they would be undermining. JMHO

Aha! So a judicial opinion on Facebook in support of Masipa's reasoning is acceptable, then?

But, seriously, I don't follow how a judge giving an opinion on another judge's verdict is detrimental to the impartiality of the judiciary. In fact, quite the reverse.

If you mean that the deference that the public should feel for the judiciary must be preserved at all costs, IMO, that is essentially an argument for not televising trials in the first place. If judges aren't subjected to the intense scrutiny that Masipa received, then, when we hear a verdict that we didn't expect, we can all carry on as normal and continue to trust and say, as we usually do, 'Well, we didn't hear all the evidence, so the Judge probably got it right'.

I agree that it probably isn't very pleasant for Masipa to know that her reasoning has been criticised by a fellow judge, but I feel that improving the quality of the judiciary should be the priority. And the scrutiny of a fellow judge or judges would, undoubtedly, serve to assist this process.

IMO, given that the trial was televised, Judge Greenwood felt obliged to speak up, as he felt that the public had been let down by the reasoning in the verdict and, on behalf of his profession, found this embarrassing. As you know, it is essential to the retention of public confidence in the process that justice should not only be done, but should undoubtedly, and manifestly, be seen to be done.

As you point out, I am hopeful that the Appeal Court judges will be sound and will look at the facts again, given the complaint about Milady's questionable handling of circumstantial evidence.

And please remember that the existence of some of Masipa's errors is more than just a matter of interpretation. I'm referring not only to the incorrect factual detail pertaining to Reeva's injuries, but, also, to Milady's statement that gunshots first was common cause. These errors are not matters of opinion - unfortunately, they were real mistakes.

 

[zwiebel]

Here you go, Zwiebs .. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/laat+lammetjie

It means a 'child born many years after it's siblings' ('late lamb').

Well. I think you are probably the most wonderful person in the world right now and thank you very, very very much.

 

[DarKHawK]

Help any South Africans around, please! There's a phrase June used in her book to describe Reeva - something like laate laamejite?? I've just managed to delete it while I was looking it up and now cannot refind it or even google it as I'm obviously getting the sp all wrong. I'm guessing itmeans late arrival, or something like that?

It's really urgent and I'm faced with trying to read an entire book very, very quickly to try and find it, so any and all help much appreciated!

Late lamb - means your born a lot later than brothers/sisters

I like turtles!