Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[JudgeJudi]

Anastassia Khozissova posted this on 16 February 2013. She's posted many, many photos but nothing remotely like this. It's a one of a kind and to me she can only be referring to one thing.

 

[Estelle]

Anastassia Khozissova posted this on 16 February 2013. She's posted many, many photos but nothing remotely like this. It's a one of a kind and to me she can only be referring to one thing.

This is SO true! Thanks, JJ

 

[Estelle]

In the You interview Christo Menelaou woke at 03:08 to what sounded like three thunderclaps. About an hour later he went to the bathroom, looked out of the window and saw all the lights in OP's house on and blue and red flashing lights outside. He had a quick shower and drove over to Oscar's house. So maybe around 04:30?

Colonel van Renburg and Constable Prinsaloo arrive at 03:55; Hilton Botha arrives at 04:15. Various other persons have also arrived in this time (see Timeline).

OP is taken to the garage between 04:50 and 05:12. Security guards are outside the house.

So if you're exploring whether the ladders might initially have been in the garage it's a non-starter. There was no chance of moving the ladders out of the garage without being seen and how would CM even know to do this? The ladders were where they were seen and later photographed IMO.

But what I cannot understand they were under his bedroom balcony NOT under the bathroom window.

 

[AW2B]

Maybe so but I doubt he would be doing the work....................get the workers on the stand fgs.

When were you last at the accused house?
Did the accused know you were working there at that time?
When did you paint the accused house last?
Did the accused know you were there?
When was the last time you removed sensors from the accused house?
Did the accused know you had removed sensors from his house?
When was the last time you used ladders at the accused house?
Where did you leave the ladders?
What date was that?
Were you told to put the ladders in the garage?
They were found in the garden...............why were they not in the garage?
Did Frank help you when you were there?
What was his role and where did he reside?
Did you ever set the alarm off whilst working there?
Why did you never set the alarm off?
Who switched the alarm off for you when you were working on the property?
Did you ever set the neighbours alarm off?
Did the neighbours dogs ever bark when you were there?
Did the accused dog's ever bark at you?
Was it a safe estate?
Could intruders get past the security easily..............................god almighty why were these questions not asked including thousands of others.

It stinks to high heaven it really does.

I totally agree..the prosecution didn't do a good job. They kept saying that there were ONLY two people in the house ..Pistorius and Reeva..as if Frank didn't exist. They didn't ask about the jeans that were found outside below the bathroom window..etc..etc..

 

[Estelle]

I totally agree..the prosecution didn't do a good job. They kept saying that there were ONLY two people in the house ..Pistorius and Reeva..as if Frank didn't exist. They didn't ask about the jeans that were found outside below the bathroom window..etc..etc..

What I don't like about SA cases is that they do deals and do not subpoena witnesses.

Was Hilton Botha really such a risk to the case that Carl was not charged and Frank was not put on the stand? These deals have affected the Dewani case too. I am not sure if they make deals in other countries or not.

Were the deals in OP's case necessary?

 

[Estelle]

Given that he was only briefly married to their mother, I can't see why he would be expected to take responsibility for them, given that their father was alive, and there was also a large extended family.

Maybe her second husband was left out of her will. Can that happen when married?

 

[Estelle]

On another point, it amazed me at the time (and still does) how much was expected from Botha at this early stage. None of this would have been brought up at an English bail hearing, and rightly so.

That's right. Should the bail hearing have been delayed until they got the evidence sorted out? Is there a time factor involved? Do they have to hold these bail hearings in a certain no of days after the crime has been committed? Botha should have been either better prepared or said he did not know on some things. Extra booties should be left in their cars ready to use. Botha should have had a meeting first with his superiors to check what he was going to state. Could Botha have said he was not ready to give evidence? Would he have been able to talk to Nel first?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Maybe her second husband was left out of her will. Can that happen when married?

Absolutely, particularly with such a short-term marriage. Wills are open to challenge, particularly in the case of a long-term marriage so it's essential to have a lawyer draw it up. It can be very expensive litigation.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Maybe so but I doubt he would be doing the work....................get the workers on the stand fgs.

When were you last at the accused house?
Did the accused know you were working there at that time?
When did you paint the accused house last?
Did the accused know you were there?
When was the last time you removed sensors from the accused house?
Did the accused know you had removed sensors from his house?
When was the last time you used ladders at the accused house?
Where did you leave the ladders?
What date was that?
Were you told to put the ladders in the garage?
They were found in the garden...............why were they not in the garage?
Did Frank help you when you were there?
What was his role and where did he reside?
Did you ever set the alarm off whilst working there?
Why did you never set the alarm off?
Who switched the alarm off for you when you were working on the property?
Did you ever set the neighbours alarm off?
Did the neighbours dogs ever bark when you were there?
Did the accused dog's ever bark at you?
Was it a safe estate?
Could intruders get past the security easily..............................god almighty why were these questions not asked including thousands of others.

It stinks to high heaven it really does.

I couldn't agree more that it stinks. Using the workmen may well have been a help but sadly all this is water under the bridge now and I don't see a chance in hell of a retrial, sad to say.

 

[JudgeJudi]

That's right. Should the bail hearing have been delayed until they got the evidence sorted out? Is there a time factor involved? Do they have to hold these bail hearings in a certain no of days after the crime has been committed? Botha should have been either better prepared or said he did not know on some things. Extra booties should be left in their cars ready to use. Botha should have had a meeting first with his superiors to check what he was going to state. Could Botha have said he was not ready to give evidence? Would he have been able to talk to Nel first?

After arrest, the arrestee is to be brought to the police station. As soon as possible thereafter, the arrestee must be informed of his right to institute bail proceedings. If an arrestee is not released, he must be brought before a lower court as soon as reasonably possible, but not later than 48 hours after the arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_procedure_in_South_Africa#With_warrant

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.independent.ie/entertain...-did-pistorius-pull-the-trigger-30758221.html

Book review: Why did Pistorius pull the trigger?

He also speaks to former teachers at his tough, public school-style boarding college, Pretoria Boys' High School - where an incident is recounted in which the headmaster fears for his pupil's sanity after winning gold at the Athens Paralympics, setting a new world record at the age of 17.

"I was exceptionally worried about how he would cope," Bill Schroder, the headmaster, told Carlin. "All the more so because I realised that we in school were the only ones to give him his bearings."
-.-.-.-.-.-.-
She describes him as a man who "shot her, not once but shot her repeatedly until she was dead", and heaps praise repeatedly on Reeva's ex-boyfriend Warren Lahoud, who she says was "like someone sent from heaven in man terms". Pity the poor man who has to compete with that. "How, or why, she decided to be with him [Pistorius] is something I keep trying to work out," Steenkamp writes. This is a personal account from someone who describes her daughter as "our whole life, the backbone of our extended family". "It's as if I'm in purgatory. Sometimes I feel as if I'm going mad with it all," she says.

And it is full of surprising detail - how Reeva drew paintings of a woman crouched in a small space and an angel flying away from a man with a gun - which now, to her parents, seem scarily prescient. How, she says, Reeva appeared to her in a dream wearing a long white dress the night after she was killed. "She looks so beautiful. 'Mama,' she says. 'I hope he doesn't shoot me again.'"

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://citizen.co.za/283470/steenkamp-prison-rule-breaking-investigated/

FILE PICTURE: Don Steenkamp, who was convicted of killing his father, mother and sister at the Kimberley High Court on November 27, 2013 in Kimberley, South Africa. Northern Cape Judge President Frans Kgomo sentenced Steenkamp to 20 years imprisonment for each of the three murder convictions, 12 years on a rape conviction and four years for lying to the police. All sentences would run concurrently.

The Beeld reported on Saturday, that Steenkamp, 18, had made more phone calls than he was permitted to and that he had taken take-away food to his cell.
-.-.-.-.-.-
Prisoners were only permitted to make phone calls on weekends.

Steenkamp reportedly called one of his supporters every second day.

It is also alleged that Steenkamp took bags full of food to his cell, with the help of a prison warden, after a family day in October.


A man with the best known name St has broken the prison rules, like we have to expect from OP also.
If HE had the help of a prison warden, then fortiori would have OP, I think?

4 years imprisonment for lying to police - interesting!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/outlook/outlook_20141120-1206b.mp3

June!

 

[Mr Fossil]

But what I cannot understand they were under his bedroom balcony NOT under the bathroom window.

The ladders were at the back of the house, below the side of OP's bedroom balcony and to the left of the toilet / bathroom windows.



Photo 168 was taken at 06:31 on 14 Feb 2013 and shows the toilet and bathroom windows. A pair of jeans lies on the ground by one of OP's dogs.



Photo 171 was take at 06:32, showing the ladders under the lounge window. This is directly below the side of the bedroom balcony and to the left of the toilet and bathroom windows. Notice that the jeans have now been picked up off the ground (by van Staden?). Not clear in this photo, but the left hand pane of the lounge window is broken.



A floor plan showing the relative positions of the bathroom and toilet windows to the side of the balcony.

 

[Cherwell]

That's right. Should the bail hearing have been delayed until they got the evidence sorted out? Is there a time factor involved? Do they have to hold these bail hearings in a certain no of days after the crime has been committed? Botha should have been either better prepared or said he did not know on some things. Extra booties should be left in their cars ready to use. Botha should have had a meeting first with his superiors to check what he was going to state. Could Botha have said he was not ready to give evidence? Would he have been able to talk to Nel first?

In my country a bail hearing is held to establish whether the accused will be granted bail or not. That's it. It's not a mini-trial with evidence being presented in detail, as this seemed to be.

 

[mrjitty]

Better question is..................Why did the State not ask these questions ?

The prosecution cannot easily cross-examine the accused on the motivations of other people

I think Nel did a great job of making the absurdities obvious - but in the end if he asks "why did Reeva slam the door" it just gives OP a chance to engage in speculation.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm sorry but I have to keep going back to the fact that the prosecution were mediocre ,at best, in their case and there are numerous examples.
Your point in question about the ladders.
Why was the builder not called to the witness box and asked when/how/who was the last people to attend OP's house and disconnect his alarm/remove sensors/his gutters/paint his house/use the ladders etc etc etc......................WHY?
OP was allowed to give his version without proper XE as there was no verification to his account of events and situations.
Totally amateurish and hence the appeal..................he should have been banged up in prison for executing Reeva many months ago IMO.

His whole story is complete and utter rubbish and the whole world knows it.
Roux/Uncle/Aunty/Carl/Aimee need to realise their lives will never be the same.
I doubt they will though or even notice it.

amateurish?

His guilt was obvious to just about everyone except Masipa.

Why would calling the builder make any difference to a Judge when who takes direct witness evidence (witnesses hearing a women screaming) and simply throws it out?

Allegedly Nel was dealing with what should be the elite of the SA legal establishment

Oh look judge - here are some jeans out the window

Oh look judge - a photo of a smashed in bath tub cover

Should he spoon feed her?

Shows how absurd this case was

 

[mrjitty]

BBM I see what you did... For the record, yes I agree too much testimony was let in without documented evidence or even a proper foundation.

Well - I know this seems crazy

But the prosecution does not administer the rules of evidence at trial - the judge does.

The Judge is supposed to have the experience and training to discount matters without proper evidential foundation and prevent bogus material being introduced.

Indeed in jury trials - that is the judges job

In a trial with judge and assessors, the evidential gate can be less strict - but the judge should nevertheless discount hearsay and unsubstantiated conjecture

The fact that she accepted conjecture (OP screams like a woman) despite there being no evidence to support it, tells you what you need to know about this case.

You can't blame Nel for that.

There is nothing he can do about it.

Look at the sentencing.

That idiot introduced 100% hearsay evidence and Masipa sat through it.

A High Court Judge in NZ would kick that witness to the curb.

 

[mrjitty]

What I don't like about SA cases is that they do deals and do not subpoena witnesses.

Was Hilton Botha really such a risk to the case that Carl was not charged and Frank was not put on the stand? These deals have affected the Dewani case too. I am not sure if they make deals in other countries or not.

Were the deals in OP's case necessary?

If you ask me, the issues in this case are less to do with the prosecutor (i.e. Nel) and more to do with the police investigation

In the end the police investigate cases. The prosecutor fights them in Court.

Why are all these matters screwed up in the first hours of the case?

We have to ask the Police that.

I am amazed that key witnesses were not tracked down until so late.

I am also dumbfounded at the technical and forensic evidence

The crime scene photos ought to have been the slam dunk. e.g. the open curtains.

You can only shake your head.

 

[mrjitty]

In my country a bail hearing is held to establish whether the accused will be granted bail or not. That's it. It's not a mini-trial with evidence being presented in detail, as this seemed to be.

Would you easily get bail in a murder trial in england?

My understanding elsewhere is that the prosecution merely indicates the strength of its case (after all, it is asking for detention of a citizen) but that it is not so contested as in SA

e.g the cross examination of Botha seemed strange

But then he seemed determined to be an idiot in the stand

I do wonder if he deliberately scuppered the trial.

How can it be possible for the defence to allege the crime scene had been altered?

that possibly is bizarre