Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[Cherwell]

Also .. what on earth is a 'braai' room? I need to look that one up!

A braai is a barbecue. This is a word you hear very often if you have South African neighbours!

 

[JudgeJudi]

I was able to read a few parts of 'Behind the Door' online. These were the most interesting bits if anyone is interested:

Inside the house, the scene was frantic.

“Oscar, we’re phoning the ambulance. Just wait. Let’s see what we can do”, Carice responded to Oscar’s persistent requests to get Reeva to a hospital.

Carice scrunched up the towels and pushed them down on the wounds to try to stop the bleeding. She then tried to make a crude tourniquet with one of the towels to stem the flow on Reeva’s right arm. She knew she had to tie it as tight as possible and asked Oscar to help her by holding one side while she pulled the other. Then she lifted the elastic of Reeva’s white shorts and, like a sea, a rush of blood was released. Oscar put pressure down on the towel, trying to dam the flow.

The towels, however, weren’t stemming the flow so Carice asked Oscar for bags and tape in order to tie the fabric even tighter. By the time he returned by bags and tape ...”

“Despite attempts by a low-ranking constable to intervene, Van Rensburg had allowed Oscar to rid his body of evidence”.

Gina said, “And I know at the beginning they had one or two big arguments on the phone”. I remember I met her for tea and I said, “How are things going?” and she said, ‘Ag, we had the biggest blowout on the phone last night’”. She said, ‘I just put the down the phone. I’m not interested in talking about it’ but that then obviously makes him more mad and he tries to phone her back”. Gina put it down to new relationship squabbles.

After OP’s parents split, Henke was still very much a part of their lives and the relationship remained “amicable” and ”mutually respectful”. OP wrote about how his father spoilt them and ensured they never wanted for anything, buying his kids go-karts and boats. But over the years the distance grew between OP and his father.

“In his book, OP talks about falling head over heels in love 4 times by the age of 24. Many of these relationships were defined by passionate peaks and troughs, intense love and ugly arguments”.


It's interesting that there were a couple of big arguments right from the beginning. I really don't understand if it was like this at the very start why she'd want to continue the relationship. If it was like this in the "honeymoon" stage, surely things could only get worse.

From everything I've read about her, including comments from her ex-boyfriends, she didn't like arguments and went out of her way to avoid them. She was always described as being a very happy person who was a lot of fun and no-one seemed to have a bad word to say about her ... unlike him. And unusually, all her exes said they were still on very friendly terms with her.

Her fate was sealed from the moment she met him.

 

[JudgeJudi]

~rsbm~

BBM .. why would she have said that? As I understood it, she wasn't planning to stay overnight plus also she had to get back to J'burg to give her speech .. so why would she have been planning to have a Valentine's Day breakfast/picnic? The only thing that we knew for sure about her cooking anything for OP was that she said in a whatsapp message that she would cook for him on the Thursday (Valentine's) evening, so presumably she had planned on going home on the evening of the 13th (having stayed over the previous night .. the 12th), do her speech at the school in J'burg on the 14th, then go back to his place later on that day to cook him the VDay meal. (Also, I'm trying work out where .. in that schedule that we know about of hers .. did Pistorius plan to take her to the jewellery store? He did say he was going to take her there on VDay, didn't he .. yet she would not have had time for that in her schedule .. so either he didn't bother taking any of her plans into account or he is just lying completely .. and I'm pretty sure which one of the two it was!)

What a pity Nel didn't ask OP to produce the receipt for the bracelet/s, or alternatively, ask where he bought them and make his own enquiries? OP couldn't possibly say, "I don't remember" etc because he was going to take Reeva there on Valentine's Day to collect them, or so he said. They'd only being dating for 3 months so they certainly weren't going to be diamond bracelets, so why didn't he take them with him when he bought them, have them wrapped and ready to give her?

He also said he and Reeva weren't going to make a big deal of the day. I don't believe that either because she gave every impression that it meant quite a bit to her ... her conversation with the shopkeeper, her gift for him, and her tweet. No wonder everyone can't stand him, he's just repulsive.

 

[Mr Fossil]

~rsbm~

BBM .. why would she have said that? As I understood it, she wasn't planning to stay overnight plus also she had to get back to J'burg to give her speech .. so why would she have been planning to have a Valentine's Day breakfast/picnic? The only thing that we knew for sure about her cooking anything for OP was that she said in a whatsapp message that she would cook for him on the Thursday (Valentine's) evening, so presumably she had planned on going home on the evening of the 13th (having stayed over the previous night .. the 12th), do her speech at the school in J'burg on the 14th, then go back to his place later on that day to cook him the VDay meal. (Also, I'm trying work out where .. in that schedule that we know about of hers .. did Pistorius plan to take her to the jewellery store? He did say he was going to take her there on VDay, didn't he .. yet she would not have had time for that in her schedule .. so either he didn't bother taking any of her plans into account or he is just lying completely .. and I'm pretty sure which one of the two it was!)

From Behind The Door:

Samantha gives a rare insight into what Reeva had up her sleeve for her love. "She had planned the whole thing, she was so excited. She was like that, she liked special occasions," Sam remembers. Reeva was plotting an elaborate breakfast picnic in the garden of Oscar's home, replete with heart-shaped biscuits.

"She had planned the whole breakfast. They were going to get up early and they were going to have a picnic in the garden. She would make heart-shaped biscuits and make a picnic. She had gone and got heart-shaped sweets, you know those little sherbet things that say, 'I love you,' and stuff all over them. She was planning on making him pancakes with Nutella. She was going to get up early, go and put the blanket out in the garden, put stuff around it at sunrise as a surprise ..."

I'm wondering if Reeva's messages about going home at 3 and then 6 were because she intended to surprise him by being there. Perhaps she even intended on saying she'd leave after having a quick meal with him when she was still there when he got home. Then she'd stay at the last minute so that her plans for the following morning would be a complete surprise?

Meanwhile, did OP have other plans? He was on the phone to Jenna when he arrived home. Did he still think Reeva was going home? Is the quick call to his brother (18:47:59 for 36 secs) to get him to call Jenna and put her off coming over? He'd already spoken with Carl for 5 minutes on the way home. It wouldn't surprise me if Carl was in the know. Then the later WhatsApps would be with Jenna. All speculation.

 

[L2L]

Well, we all know why he didn't take the bracelets with him, don't we? Another lie to add to all the others. There were most likely never any bracelets or anything else for Reeva on Valentine's Day.

And, if Frankie didn't hear anythinghow come he was out the front with the guards? I'll bet he knew a hell of a lot more but has been successfully 'shut up' by someone. Can't understand why Nel didn't drag him, screaming and shouting that he knew nothing, to the stand and put him under oath. Suppose he had his reasons...wish I knew what they were.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm wondering if Reeva's messages about going home at 3 and then 6 were because she intended to surprise him by being there. Perhaps she even intended on saying she'd leave after having a quick meal with him when she was still there when he got home. Then she'd stay at the last minute so that her plans for the following morning would be a complete surprise?

Meanwhile, did OP have other plans? He was on the phone to Jenna when he arrived home. Did he still think Reeva was going home? Is the quick call to his brother (18:47:59 for 36 secs) to get him to call Jenna and put her off coming over? He'd already spoken with Carl for 5 minutes on the way home. It wouldn't surprise me if Carl was in the know. Then the later WhatsApps would be with Jenna. All speculation.

Ooooooh! Food for thought indeed.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Well, we all know why he didn't take the bracelets with him, don't we? Another lie to add to all the others. There were most likely never any bracelets or anything else for Reeva on Valentine's Day.

And, if Frankie didn't hear anythinghow come he was out the front with the guards? I'll bet he knew a hell of a lot more but has been successfully 'shut up' by someone. Can't understand why Nel didn't drag him, screaming and shouting that he knew nothing, to the stand and put him under oath. Suppose he had his reasons...wish I knew what they were.

Nel wouldn't have called him because he would have been a hostile witness, i.e. one of your own witnesses who does not want to testify (but who can be subpoenaed to do so). Hostile witnesses can damage your case and are extremely unlikely to help it. If Frank said he slept through it and saw and heard nothing, no-one can prove otherwise, and that's what he would have said on the stand. Someone obviously got to him ... and money talks.

 

[cottonweaver]

I've downloaded a copy of You South Africa 2 May 2013, with the Christo Menelaou interview. Here are a few extracts not in the sample pdf, which only has 3 of the 8 pages.














There's more, particularly about Christo's disbelief about some of the things that have been reported about OP.

Thanks Mr. F. Have never read this before. Although - like the rest of the posters some of Christo's comments don't fit with what he know so far, the comment made about Frank is the first I've ever heard about his reaction to that night.

Interested in your quote :" ..Frankie was traumatised, especially because... he'd heard nothing. It bothered him a lot and he tended to cry a lot initially" says C.Menalou.

Surely people are traumatised precisely because they have experienced a trauma at first hand? That's my understanding of it basically. You surely don't get traumatised by what you did not see or hear? Regret, shock feeling terrified.. yes, self-reproach maybe.... that you woke up to this scene oblivious to what had been taking place... but traumatised and tears that you can't stop?
Michelle Burger was traumatised by Reeva's screams so much she was still crying on the stand and could not get those screams out of her head for a long time.

It's a revealing comment to me.

I know we have all said this time and time again, but considering this crime has made the media trillions of cash why hasn't some enterprising journalist tracked him down - even if it is only to give us a non- scoop along the lines of "Frank has no comment to make and slammed the door in our face...."

 

[cottonweaver]

Also .. what on earth is a 'braai' room? I need to look that one up! .. and why on earth would she be faffing about removing cushion covers for washing in a relationship that is only 3 months old, fgs?

I get what youre' saying but remember Prosecution often emphasised how tidy she was. Plus we know she did her own washing at his home when he wasn't there. It makes sense, a fastidious, conscientious woman throwing in some extra dirty laundry with her own clothes, to be helpful. ( Indeed I always got the impression, maybe wrongly, that she spent almost as much time there alone as she did with him there due to only having the Myers base. If that's true then even more likely she wanted to "repay" with a little tidying up etc.)
Of course Christo- OP's bezzy mate- is including these details for other reasons, to make it look as if they were a solid domesticated unit/couple , when we all know that was not the case.... not after 3 months as you say.... or rather was it 10* meetings/dates in total.
Anyway ..I know it's probably over-reaching with idle speculation on my part but it makes even more sense that a woman like that wouldn't be leaving jeans on the floor, either inside or outside.

* Can't remember but a poster calculated the number of dates, many months ago. Anyway this couple barely knew each other, I think we're all agreed on that.

 

[AJ_DS]

From Behind The Door:

I'm wondering if Reeva's messages about going home at 3 and then 6 were because she intended to surprise him by being there. Perhaps she even intended on saying she'd leave after having a quick meal with him when she was still there when he got home. Then she'd stay at the last minute so that her plans for the following morning would be a complete surprise?

Meanwhile, did OP have other plans? He was on the phone to Jenna when he arrived home. Did he still think Reeva was going home? Is the quick call to his brother (18:47:59 for 36 secs) to get him to call Jenna and put her off coming over? He'd already spoken with Carl for 5 minutes on the way home. It wouldn't surprise me if Carl was in the know. Then the later WhatsApps would be with Jenna. All speculation.

Interesting theory… from personal experience, I know girlfriends can be very sneaky when preparing a surprise…

1. Reeva was very insistent with OP about wanting to go home to Joburg and having OP stay with family and friends instead of going home to Silverwoods… perhaps Reeva's plan was to have more time alone at OP's house to prepare the surprise but OP's desire to go home early disrupted Reeva's timetable.

2. Reeva had planned to surprise OP at home that evening BUT had planned for OP to eat dinner in Joburg and come home afterwards… since OP insisted on coming home early, Reeva had no choice but to go out to buy last minute groceries to prepare a dinner.

… the planned surprise could have been : be at OP's house that night when he came home, romantic night, Valentine's picnic breakfast and give him Valentine's gift in person

BUT

Where this scenario falls completely apart for me :

1. Why would Reeva leave OP's Valentine's gift where OP would see it and tell him that he could not open it until the next morning… she would have hidden the gift and, as planned, given it to him during the surprise picnic breakfast.

2. Had Reeva planned all along to stay at OP's house that night for a surprise breakfast picnic she would have shared that information with the Myers… Cecil Myers : "I’ve got this thing with all three children (Reeva, and his daughters, Kim and Gina), if they don’t come home at night, they must text me."

Reeva sent an SMS that evening : "Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow."… indicating that Reeva had planned to go home to Joburg that evening but that circumstances had changed, hence no surprise picnic breakfast was planned.

3. Reeva had a scheduled speaking commitment in Joburg on the morning of 14 February… this would mean that Reeva would have to prepare breakfast, set up the picnic, give OP the gift, eat breakfast, shower, hair and make-up, get dressed and make it to Joburg in weekday rush hour traffic… this does not sound very romantic for either OP or Reeva : the purpose of such a surprise picnic is to spend relaxed quality time with your loved one… not looking at your watch trying to keep a tight schedule, worrying about being late to an event that is very important and dear to you both personally and professionally.

 

[AJ_DS]

From Behind The Door:

Samantha gives a rare insight into what Reeva had up her sleeve for her love. "She had planned the whole thing, she was so excited. She was like that, she liked special occasions," Sam remembers. Reeva was plotting an elaborate breakfast picnic in the garden of Oscar's home, replete with heart-shaped biscuits.

"She had planned the whole breakfast. They were going to get up early and they were going to have a picnic in the garden. She would make heart-shaped biscuits and make a picnic. She had gone and got heart-shaped sweets, you know those little sherbet things that say, 'I love you,' and stuff all over them. She was planning on making him pancakes with Nutella. She was going to get up early, go and put the blanket out in the garden, put stuff around it at sunrise as a surprise ..."

I'm wondering if Reeva's messages about going home at 3 and then 6 were because she intended to surprise him by being there. Perhaps she even intended on saying she'd leave after having a quick meal with him when she was still there when he got home. Then she'd stay at the last minute so that her plans for the following morning would be a complete surprise?

Meanwhile, did OP have other plans? He was on the phone to Jenna when he arrived home. Did he still think Reeva was going home? Is the quick call to his brother (18:47:59 for 36 secs) to get him to call Jenna and put her off coming over? He'd already spoken with Carl for 5 minutes on the way home. It wouldn't surprise me if Carl was in the know. Then the later WhatsApps would be with Jenna. All speculation.

BiB… Interesting how Samantha's story about her knowledge of Reeva's planned romantic surprise for OP COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS her sworn affidavit !!

Haha… also Reeva made sure to ask OP what he could eat for the Valentine's dinner she was preparing because he was in training following a strict training regimen and diet… BUT she unilaterally decided that OP would eat Nutella pancakes for breakfast !!! LOL

Didn't OP also say something at trial regarding the heart-shaped candy… that Reeva made special attention to choose those types of sugar candies because he could not eat chocolate and fat during his training… no fat and chocolate in Nutella pancakes !!!!

 

[jay-jay]

Interesting theory… from personal experience, I know girlfriends can be very sneaky when preparing a surprise…

1. Reeva was very insistent with OP about wanting to go home to Joburg and having OP stay with family and friends instead of going home to Silverwoods… perhaps Reeva's plan was to have more time alone at OP's house to prepare the surprise but OP's desire to go home early disrupted Reeva's timetable.

2. Reeva had planned to surprise OP at home that evening BUT had planned for OP to eat dinner in Joburg and come home afterwards… since OP insisted on coming home early, Reeva had no choice but to go out to buy last minute groceries to prepare a dinner.

… the planned surprise could have been : be at OP's house that night when he came home, romantic night, Valentine's picnic breakfast and give him Valentine's gift in person

BUT

Where this scenario falls completely apart for me :

1. Why would Reeva leave OP's Valentine's gift where OP would see it and tell him that he could not open it until the next morning… she would have hidden the gift and, as planned, given it to him during the surprise picnic breakfast.

2. Had Reeva planned all along to stay at OP's house that night for a surprise breakfast picnic she would have shared that information with the Myers… Cecil Myers : "I’ve got this thing with all three children (Reeva, and his daughters, Kim and Gina), if they don’t come home at night, they must text me."

Reeva sent an SMS that evening : "Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow."… indicating that Reeva had planned to go home to Joburg that evening but that circumstances had changed, hence no surprise picnic breakfast was planned.

3. Reeva had a scheduled speaking commitment in Joburg on the morning of 14 February… this would mean that Reeva would have to prepare breakfast, set up the picnic, give OP the gift, eat breakfast, shower, hair and make-up, get dressed and make it to Joburg in weekday rush hour traffic… this does not sound very romantic for either OP or Reeva : the purpose of such a surprise picnic is to spend relaxed quality time with your loved one… not looking at your watch trying to keep a tight schedule, worrying about being late to an event that is very important and dear to you both personally and professionally.

.. completely agree with all the 'BUTs' .. blimey, it's all very odd, isn't it .. I think this is the main reason why this case has grabbed me so much is the 'how' dunnit (as opposed to the 'who' dunnit) aspect of it all. Absolutely none of it seems to add up, not even this part of it!

 

[JudgeJudi]

On the Dewani thread, Interested Bystander informed me of changes to the law in England and Wales regarding the right to silence. Apologies for a long post, but bear with me because you'll see why it would have been devastating to OP if SA had this amendment to its law.

England and Wales

In 1994 the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act modified the right to silence for any person under police questioning in England and Wales. Immediately previous to the Act, the caution issued by the police varied from force to force, but was along the lines of:

"You do not have to say anything but anything you do say will be taken down and may be given in evidence".

The 1994 Act modified this to be:

"You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

From the following link http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6816&context=jclc I learned the following:

"This is similar to the right to silence clause in the Miranda Warning in the US".

"At common law, adverse inferences could be drawn from silence only in limited circumstances in which an accusation of guilt was made.

Adverse inferences may be drawn in certain circumstances where before or on being charged, the accused:

• fails to mention any fact which he later relies upon and which in the circumstances at the time the accused could reasonably be expected to mention;
• fails to give evidence at trial or answer any question;
• fails to account on arrest for objects, substances or marks on his person, clothing or footwear, in his possession, or in the place where he is arrested; or
• fails to account on arrest for his presence at a place.

Where inferences may be drawn from silence, the court must direct the jury as to the limits to the inferences which may properly be drawn from silence. There may be no conviction based wholly on silence.

The section is primarily directed at circumstances where a defendant refuses to reveal his defence until trial, ambushing the prosecution. An adverse inference is appropriate where the jury conclude that the reason the accused remained silent was that he had no proper answer to the charge put against him. The inferences that may be drawn include “some additional support” for the prosecution case, i.e. that the defendant is guilty".

Finally, I've just discovered that last year Australia amended it's Evidence Act in a very similar manner. The legal fraternity were opposed to it because it erodes a person's presumption of innocence.

Section 89A(1) provides:

This provision only applies to "criminal proceedings for a serious indictable offence", relevantly any offence punishable by imprisonment for at least five years.

"The new provision permits an unfavourable inference to be drawn during proceedings for a serious indictable offence in circumstances where a defendant failed to mention during an interview with investigating officials something the defendant relies upon in the proceedings, and of which he/she would have been aware during the investigative phase. This inference cannot be drawn, however, if it is the only evidence of the defendant's guilt.


How could Masipa not have made adverse inferences if SA had this law? His story changed so much from bail to trial and he had multiple defences. (The trial can be before a judge or judge and jury).

 

[Estelle]

The OP family continue to confound me.

Why is Carl growing his beard - is this some kind of protest? He'll be tying yellow ribbons on trees around Pretoria next. Instead of feeling grateful that - so far- his "bro" got off lightly and instead of fading quietly into the background, he wants to make these public gestures as if there has been an injustice against his brother. If, on the other hand he wants to show solidarity with his brother there are surely other private ways of doing so.

This interview also demonstrates to me that this family just can't live without the media. Despite all their statements regarding the media's bias against their brother and they want privacy now. Oscar's past fame was very important to their prestige and now his notoriety is too much for them. If their main concern was their brother, and the close bonds they are always speaking of, they could just continue their support without booking interviews.

He recounts a moment in the prison when the helium balloons explode and how he & Aimee dive for cover thinking a shot has gone off and then erupt into uncontrollable laughter. No irony noticed.
No mention of Reeva of course.

This family are the ultimate attention seekers.

 

[AJ_DS]

.. completely agree with all the 'BUTs' .. blimey, it's all very odd, isn't it .. I think this is the main reason why this case has grabbed me so much is the 'how' dunnit (as opposed to the 'who' dunnit) aspect of it all. Absolutely none of it seems to add up, not even this part of it!

True… However, OP is accused of murder and Reeva cannot testify… basically OP has a very good reason to lie and he knows Reeva cannot contradict him… even more he can interpret Reeva's messages with impunity and make up anything he wants about her… and have his friends do the same

 

[AJ_DS]

Makes sense…

The right to silence is maintained.

BUT… if you choose silence, you cannot wait for formal criminal charges, discovery of evidence against you, study of said evidence for months and then come at Trial with a Defence : "Yes, it was me but it was a terrible unfortunate accident… allow me to explain how it all happened"

 

[Mr Fossil]

BiB… Interesting how Samantha's story about her knowledge of Reeva's planned romantic surprise for OP COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS her sworn affidavit !!

Haha… also Reeva made sure to ask OP what he could eat for the Valentine's dinner she was preparing because he was in training following a strict training regimen and diet… BUT she unilaterally decided that OP would eat Nutella pancakes for breakfast !!! LOL

Didn't OP also say something at trial regarding the heart-shaped candy… that Reeva made special attention to choose those types of sugar candies because he could not eat chocolate and fat during his training… no fat and chocolate in Nutella pancakes !!!!

Am exploring this possibility further (though agree there's some conflicting information).

Interesting that Samantha G and Christo M tell the same story about the picnic surprise but with different details. This gives the story some credibility IMO.

Does Sam G's affidavit contradict anything? She is reporting what she knows happened that day. Perhaps she didn't know how Reeva planned to spring the surprise the following morning e.g. pretend to be heading home then stay at the last minute.

Sunrise in Pretoria was 05:51 on 14 Feb 2013. OP usually woke around 5am.

Trying to find out what time the school speech was scheduled for.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The right to silence doesn't have to be complete silence, it can be partial. The omissions from both his bail statement and plea explanation that became important during the trial are the issues that would have drawn adverse inferences.

 

[AJ_DS]

Am exploring this possibility further (though agree there's some conflicting information).

Interesting that Samantha G and Christo M tell the same story about the picnic surprise but with different details. This gives the story some credibility IMO.

Does Sam G's affidavit contradict anything? She is reporting what she knows happened that day. She wouldn't necessarily know how Reeva planned to spring the surprise the following morning.

Sunrise in Pretoria was 05:51 on 14 Feb 2013. OP usually woke around 5am.

Trying to find out what time the school speech was scheduled for.

BiB… not really IMO… if it was true it would have come up during trial or be in affidavits… the fact that OP's friends say about the same thing when NOT under oath means nothing.

As for Sam, in affidavit she says :

1. Reeva was my best friend

2. I sent a text message to Reeva and asked her to please come and watch a movie that night (in Joburg), Reeva said she was in Pretoria doing some "admin" but that she would get back to me.

That statement is incompatible with someone who says that Reeva had told them that she had a whole special surprise breakfast picnic planned…

A. If the picnic was fact and Sam knew about it she would not have casually invited Reeva to see a movie in Joburg that night

B. If the picnic was fact and Sam knew about it she would have mentioned it in the affidavit because it was the reason Reeva was at OP's house in the first place

C. Sam says in affidavit that Reeva said she wanted to stay at OP's house and cook dinner… and Reeva wanted OP to come home but OP wanted to stay in Joburg for a boys night out… contradicting even more the whole surprise picnic.

 

[WilliamMunter]

I've downloaded a copy of You South Africa 2 May 2013, with the Christo Menelaou interview. Here are a few extracts not in the sample pdf, which only has 3 of the 8 pages.

"Reeva said she was going to prepare a great breakfast for Oscar and just spread a blanket for a picnic. ... But the following morning the yoghurt, cooked chicken breasts and cheeses she'd bought were still in the fridge."

Is that a quote from Christo? If so how does he know they were still in the fridge or was it just supposition?