Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[44ALLAN]

One must remember that investigators had absolutely no information whatsoever from OP a per the what happened that evening to conduct their investigation.

IIRC, the chicken stir fry info came out only at Trial during OP's examination

I understand that but surely it would be even more reason to photograph and take evidence from everything and everywhere?
It was a murder scene and I would expect 'everything' was logged and tagged................including the rubbish in his bins.
This couldn't have just been thrown out surely?
In the UK the forensics are meticulous.
I had the misfortune of passing by a now infamous event a few year back.
A policeman was blasted twice with a shotgun whilst sitting in his car.
As we passed the scene there were at least 20 forensic people on their hands and knees doing a slow search of the area surrounding his car with tweezers and hoovers etc.
Surely someone could tag and bag a cheese wrapper and pop the chicken carcass into a container for later perusal in OP's case? :thinking:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

From Behind The Door:



I'm wondering if Reeva's messages about going home at 3 and then 6 were because she intended to surprise him by being there. Perhaps she even intended on saying she'd leave after having a quick meal with him when she was still there when he got home. Then she'd stay at the last minute so that her plans for the following morning would be a complete surprise?

Meanwhile, did OP have other plans? He was on the phone to Jenna when he arrived home. Did he still think Reeva was going home? Is the quick call to his brother (18:47:59 for 36 secs) to get him to call Jenna and put her off coming over? He'd already spoken with Carl for 5 minutes on the way home. It wouldn't surprise me if Carl was in the know. Then the later WhatsApps would be with Jenna. All speculation.

"Rumours" (??? :thinking said early on after the killing, there were 2 blondes at OP's home on this evening. Do we now approach the final facts ...??

 

[Mr Fossil]

Another You magazine preview, with some messages I've not seen before e.g:

Wed 16 Jan 2013
17:19 RS to OP: And dating you comes with sick people trying to fill my head with doubt and I’m learning to trust what is real and safe.

17:32 RS to OP: I’m just very set on maintaining my independence and concentrating on my career this year and giving you your space to train and be the best u can be. Please don’t see that as a sign of me distancing myself.

Thu 17 Jan 2013
15:10 RS to OP: Where’s your m6?
15:12 OP to RS: I hope it comes tomo noo
15:14 RS to OP: Yayyyyyyyy
15:14 RS to OP: I can’t wait
15:16 OP to RS: May we christen it? Maybe on the roof?
15:19 RS to OP: Wahahahaha
15:19 RS to OP: Let’s not break it
15:19 OP to RS: Bonnet?
16:10 RS to OP: Woooooow

16:56 OP to RS: You look amazing my angel. I know you not happy at the moment but you had a stressful couple of months. By the end of feb you going to look insane

10 Apr 2013 Reeva & Oscar messages http://www.magzter.com/preview/2448/46534 (pages 2-3 of 6)

 

[Mr Fossil]

"Rumours" (??? :thinking said early on after the killing, there were 2 blondes at OP's home on this evening. Do we now approach the final facts ...??

If that was the case, the 'other person' would be in the security register

 

[AJ_DS]

I understand that but surely it would be even more reason to photograph and take evidence from everything and everywhere?
It was a murder scene and I would expect 'everything' was logged and tagged................including the rubbish in his bins.
This couldn't have just been thrown out surely?
In the UK the forensics are meticulous.
I had the misfortune of passing by a now infamous event a few year back.
A policeman was blasted twice with a shotgun whilst sitting in his car.
As we passed the scene there were at least 20 forensic people on their hands and knees doing a slow search of the area surrounding his car with tweezers and hoovers etc.
Surely someone could tag and bag a cheese wrapper and pop the chicken carcass into a container for later perusal in OP's case? :thinking:

I understand… but your reasoning has the benefit of full hindsight… police should have also seized the extension cord, both fans, etc…

Investigators have to pick and choose, using experience and training, the relevant bits to make a criminal case based on their assessment of the scene

In this case, they believed fowl play that resulted in murder and did not believe the accident version… how are they supposed to know what elements in that house will be used by the Defence to fabricate a story… surely the content of the fridge or the kitchen garbage rank quite low in the relevance scale.

In your policeman murder example, I suspect the shooter was unknown and crime scene was small (car)… so forensics had to focus on determining the identity of the shooter.

In OP's case, the shooter was known and the crime scene was vast (a house)

 

[44ALLAN]

I understand… but your reasoning has the benefit of full hindsight… police should have also seized the extension cord, both fans, etc…

Investigators have to pick and choose, using experience and training, the relevant bits to make a criminal case based on their assessment of the scene

In this case, they believed fowl play that resulted in murder and did not believe the accident version… how are they supposed to know what elements in that house will be used by the Defence to fabricate a story… surely the content of the fridge or the kitchen garbage rank quite low in the relevance scale.

In your policeman murder example, I suspect the shooter was unknown and crime scene was small (car)… so forensics had to focus on determining the identity of the shooter.

In OP's case, the shooter was known and the crime scene was vast (a house)

BiB..........exactly my point.
I would have thought training for these forensic guys would be quite intense and they would have it instilled into them that 'anything' could become evidence at a later date so make sure everything is at least 'vetted' for significance before discarding.
Photograph everything at the least I would think.
I've seen police on tv in the UK searching neighbours bins and road drains fgs lol.

ps.
The policeman was not killed in the incident but later took his own life after being blinded by the shooting.
The 'shooter' had killed his ex's boyfriend the previous day and phoned police to tell them he was going to shoot a policeman next !
Ref ;- Raoul Moat ( he himself went on the run and shot himself dead after a stand off with police).

 

[Estelle]

Femicide - Getting away with murder

http://m.news24.com/women24/SixteenDaysofActivism/Femicide-Getting-away-with-murder-20141203

 

[AJ_DS]

BiB..........exactly my point.
I would have thought training for these forensic guys would be quite intense and they would have it instilled into them that 'anything' could become evidence at a later date so make sure everything is at least 'vetted' for significance before discarding.
Photograph everything at the least I would think.
I've seen police on tv in the UK searching neighbours bins and road drains fgs lol.

ps.
The policeman was not killed in the incident but later took his own life after being blinded by the shooting.
The 'shooter' had killed his ex's boyfriend the previous day and phoned police to tell them he was going to shoot a policeman next !
Ref ;- Raoul Moat ( he himself went on the run and shot himself dead after a stand off with police).

OK… forget the whole building a criminal case using training and experience for a moment...

Focus on the practical aspect :

- Whatever is not seized by the police must be handed over back to the accused quite rapidly… meaning it can't be produced/used at Trial (chain of custody)

- Whatever is not seized but only photographed does NOT guarantee it will be usable/useful as evidence at Trial (case and point the extension cord)

- Whatever is seised must be made available to the Defence for cross-expertise... imagine the size of the police evidence room if extension cords, fans, fridge contents, garbage contents, drawer contents, etc… were seized by police on the off change it might become useful during the trial when the Defence eventually exposes its case.

 

[Cherwell]

I would have thought training for these forensic guys would be quite intense and they would have it instilled into them that 'anything' could become evidence at a later date so make sure everything is at least 'vetted' for significance before discarding.
Photograph everything at the least I would think.
I've seen police on tv in the UK searching neighbours bins and road drains fgs lol.

Yes, but you're looking at it from a UK perspective. The SAPS is woefully underfunded by comparison, and they are just not up to the same standards.

 

[44ALLAN]

OK… forget the whole building a criminal case using training and experience for a moment...

Focus on the practical aspect :

- Whatever is not seized by the police must be handed over back to the accused quite rapidly… meaning it can't be produced/used at Trial (chain of custody)

- Whatever is not seized but only photographed does NOT guarantee it will be usable/useful as evidence at Trial (case and point the extension cord)

- Whatever is seised must be made available to the Defence for cross-expertise... imagine the size of the police evidence room if extension cords, fans, fridge contents, garbage contents, drawer contents, etc… were seized by police on the off change it might become useful during the trial when the Defence eventually exposes its case.

I really can understand what you are saying and fully agree.................but lol
I am not saying 'bag and keep as evidence' the contents of the bin or the fridge etc.
What I'm saying is surely they would photograph and keep a log of what was there after the murder?
How much easier would that have been for the prosecution?
Mr.Pistorius there was/were no signs anywhere in your house of the remains of any chicken or vegetables and your fridge only contained a pint of milk and a yoghurt and heres the photograph for Judge Masipa to totally ignore.

Yes Cherwell I realise that too just frustrating that it should have been an open and shut case after hearing all the evidence IMO

 

[mrjitty]

I am reasonably sure officers should have taken notes of that kind of thing - as it might be relevant to the timeline later.

I don't think they would bother bagging it.

 

[AJ_DS]

I really can understand what you are saying and fully agree.................but lol
I am not saying 'bag and keep as evidence' the contents of the bin or the fridge etc.
What I'm saying is surely they would photograph and keep a log of what was there after the murder?
How much easier would that have been for the prosecution?
Mr.Pistorius there was/were no signs anywhere in your house of the remains of any chicken or vegetables and your fridge only contained a pint of milk and a yoghurt and heres the photograph for Judge Masipa to totally ignore.

Yes Cherwell I realise that too just frustrating that it should have been an open and shut case after hearing all the evidence IMO

As with the extension cord, …

- it was indirectly photographed but never seized by investigators

- a few days later the house was surrendered back to OP

- a year later it was indirectly used by OP in his fabricated version

- Nel used the photograph to show the Court that OP's version could not be true

- Roux demanded the State produce the extension cord

- The State produced evidence that the extension cord was never seized

- Masipa reprimanded the State and ignored the photographic evidence

… what makes you think the same would not have happened with photographic evidence of fridge and garbage content ?

 

[44ALLAN]

As with the extension cord, …

- it was indirectly photographed but never seized by investigators

- a few days later the house was surrendered back to OP

- a year later it was indirectly used by OP in his fabricated version

- Nel used the photograph to show the Court that OP's version could not be true

- Roux demanded the State produce the extension cord

- The State produced evidence that the extension cord was never seized

- Masipa reprimanded the State and ignored the photographic evidence

… what makes you think the same would not have happened with photographic evidence of fridge and garbage content ?

BiB.................Whether it would or not is totally irrelevant.
It's not up to the forensics to decide whether the judge.............18month down the line, is going to find their evidence 'worthy' of note or damning to the prosecution or the defence.
They should be trained to take that evidence and produce it for the case in question.
Just because Masipa made a total *advertiser censored*-up of this case shouldn't stop 'ALL' evidence being taken or filed or photographed for later use by the investigating officers and i note cherwells reservations about SAPS.
My whole point is there was evidence/or possible evidence in the OP trial that could have been used to nail his sorry *advertiser censored* for murder but it appears (might not be in the public domain) it is not being used..............phone took from scene as a prime example.
I just think the contents of his fridge/spare bedroom/sink/waste bins/garage/sitting room etc etc should have been photographed and noted as a matter of course.
As a parent myself i would have expected this in a possible murder case...............but maybe that's just me lol
Appreciate your responses though that's why this site is so good

 

[sleuth-d-]

If that was the case, the 'other person' would be in the security register

presumably op's father is also in the security register; from the time that he dropped by [while op was away] to fill the safe with his spare .38 ammo.

baba explained the estate entry system in some detail.

having said that, i wonder how fastidious the logging of comings and goings was... reeva's entry seemed quite informal. i wonder why the entry times of reeva and op are not more exact [if the cctv has a timecode, for instance]

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Once again we have to say that anything is possible. However I don't believe for a minute that he heard nothing. He was originally prepared to give the police a statement but later told them he'd heard nothing because he'd been asleep. The "something" that woke him must have been quite significant for him to get dressed quickly and be out the front of the house with the guards.

I’d say that “something” was very likely Oscar Pistorius, telling Frankie to get the hell out of the house and keep his mouth shut.

His ‘version’ demanded only one surviving witness - him.

 

[Val1]

If that was the case, the 'other person' would be in the security register

You mean the one that Stander was responsible for providing to the police, being the manager of the complex? Hmm, that reminds me, just who/why was Stander spending so much time on the phone, when he was supposed to be calling an ambulance?

Edit: Thanks for the correction Mr Fossil, Stander was no longer the manager at that time but I would still like to have seen a log of his calls that morning.

 

[Mr Fossil]

You mean the one that Stander was responsible for providing to the police, being the manager of the complex? Hmm, that reminds me, just who/why was Stander spending so much time on the phone, when he was supposed to be calling an ambulance?

Stander wasn't the manager of the complex. He was a member of the Estate Management Committee until he resigned in January 2013. The Estate Manager was Eugene St Leger Denny at the time (Dr Stipp refers to him) and still is.

In his testimony Stander says Dr Stipp arrived while he was outside trying to call an ambulance. Stander says he couldn't get hold of them. Dr Stipp sees him on the phone when he arrives. Stipp gives him the number and he calls 082911. Stipp then comes out and talks to Netcare after briefly attending Reeva. Carice then comes out too and gives Netcare directions because her father seems to have been incapable of doing this. This is the same Netcare who told OP to bring Reeva in.

Meanwhile Baba had also been sent off to call an ambulance. So that's three people that called them: OP, Stander and Baba.

 

[AJ_DS]

Stander wasn't the manager of the complex. He was a member of the Estate Management Committee until he resigned in January 2013. The Estate Manager was Eugene St Leger Denny at the time (Dr Stipp refers to him) and still is.

In his testimony Stander says Dr Stipp arrived while he was outside trying to call an ambulance. Stander says he couldn't get hold of them. Dr Stipp sees him on the phone when he arrives. Stipp gives him the number and he calls 082911. Stipp then comes out and talks to Netcare after briefly attending Reeva. Carice then comes out too and gives Netcare directions because her father seems to have been incapable of doing this. This is the same Netcare who told OP to bring Reeva in.

Meanwhile Baba had also been sent off to call an ambulance. So that's three people that called them: OP, Stander and Baba.

From my notes of Dr Stipp's testimony

– DrS drove to OP’s house and parked behind another car that was parked to the left
– DrS saw JS talking on his cellphone and leaning against a white BMW parked in the driveway
– JS motioned DrS towards the front door of the house
– DrS went to the front door
– DrS saw CS standing in the door
– DrS told CS he was doctor and if he could be of assistance
– CS said ‘yes’ and showed DrS inside to the bottom of the stairs
– DrS saw OP kneeling by the side of RS to the left.
– DrS saw OP had his left hand on RS’s right groin and his right hand, 2 fingers in RS’s mouth.
– OP said to DrS : “I shot her… I thought she was a burglar and I shot her”
– DrS says RS had no pulse in her neck or peripheral pulse; RS had no breathing movements
– DrS says RS jaws were clenching down making the jaw lift maneuver very difficult
– DrS opened RS’s right eyelid : her pupil was fixed and dilated; the cornea was milky, already drying out
– DrS says that he saw no signs of life and it was obvious to him RS was mortally wounded
– DrS says OP was crying and praying to God all the time.
– OP said that he would dedicate his life and her life to God if she would only live and not die that night.
– DrS went outside and asked JS if the ambulance was on its way.
– JS replied ‘no’ that he hasn’t called the ambulance yet.
– DrS called Verwoerd Hospital on his phone but was told to call ‘ER911’ an ambulance centers.
– JS called ‘Netcare911’ at 3:28.
– JS handed his phone to DrS to talk and explain the situation to Netcare.

 

[Mr Fossil]

WhatsApp messages

Here's a file I've collated so far of the Reeva's and Oscar's WhatsApp messages. Let me know if you spot any errors or can point me to any I've missed. For each date, the format is time, message id, sender and message text. Some messages are incomplete, with missing parts indicated by '...'

 

[Mr Fossil]

From my notes of Dr Stipp's testimony

– DrS drove to OP’s house and parked behind another car that was parked to the left
– DrS saw JS talking on his cellphone and leaning against a white BMW parked in the driveway
– JS motioned DrS towards the front door of the house
– DrS went to the front door
– DrS saw CS standing in the door
– DrS told CS he was doctor and if he could be of assistance
– CS said ‘yes’ and showed DrS inside to the bottom of the stairs
– DrS saw OP kneeling by the side of RS to the left.
– DrS saw OP had his left hand on RS’s right groin and his right hand, 2 fingers in RS’s mouth.
– OP said to DrS : “I shot her… I thought she was a burglar and I shot her”
– DrS says RS had no pulse in her neck or peripheral pulse; RS had no breathing movements
– DrS says RS jaws were clenching down making the jaw lift maneuver very difficult
– DrS opened RS’s right eyelid : her pupil was fixed and dilated; the cornea was milky, already drying out
– DrS says that he saw no signs of life and it was obvious to him RS was mortally wounded
– DrS says OP was crying and praying to God all the time.
– OP said that he would dedicate his life and her life to God if she would only live and not die that night.
– DrS went outside and asked JS if the ambulance was on its way.
– JS replied ‘no’ that he hasn’t called the ambulance yet.
– DrS called Verwoerd Hospital on his phone but was told to call ‘ER911’ an ambulance centers.
– JS called ‘Netcare911’ at 3:28.
– JS handed his phone to DrS to talk and explain the situation to Netcare.

The sequence is slightly different according to Stander. I'll take a closer look at the differences.