Post sentencing discussion

[AW2B]

Remember back right after the verdict, but before the sentencing someone here at WS wrote a post about how the verdict was possibly a clever ploy by Masipa herself - she wanted to ensure that the PT appeals the CM verdict so that it could be overturned to murder. Had JM given a harsher sentence, the DT would possibly have appealed, and subsequently get a lesser sentence. The speculation was that Masipa wanted to guarantee a murder sentence, but could only get it if she gave a lesser verdict, with high hopes that the PT appeals.

Does anyone else remember this? I wouldn't know where to start searching for this post, but I thought it was interesting. But to be honest, I personally don't see the mind of masipa being this devious. JMO!

I personally don't believe so..no judge wants their verdict to be reversed. If she wanted him convicted of murder..she would have done so.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Now that an appeal by the state is definitely on I guess uncle Arnold is going to have to pay Roux the rest of the money that OP owes him, about $559K British Pounds, if he wants Roux to handle the new fight. It's really funny to me how some here believed that OP and his uncle had more money than Bill Gates and were happy to spend whatever it took, and yet when Roux succeeded in getting OP a relatively short prison sentence the "Family" does not want to pay his bill!!!
:shame:

I'm not going to lump all MEGA-wealthy people into the same group but I have known a couple in my day and several of them are VERY tight.

A friend of mine said, "How do you think rich people get rich?"

 

[akp]

Yep, so it would still have to be on the basis of him being innocent (or considered so by his team) :thumb: .. and which I very much doubt they will be doing as CH is clearly the best they could've hoped for.

Yes, that counter appeal stuff is consistent with what you were saying - in order for him to be eligible for bail, there has to be a doubt on the guilt already established, which looks difficult to my (non-legal) eye. However, I do not know what legal loopholes are or are not available to his team.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Now that an appeal by the state is definitely on I guess uncle Arnold is going to have to pay Roux the rest of the money that OP owes him, about $559K British Pounds, if he wants Roux to handle the new fight. It's really funny to me how some here believed that OP and his uncle had more money than Bill Gates and were happy to spend whatever it took, and yet when Roux succeeded in getting OP a relatively short prison sentence the "Family" does not want to pay his bill!!!
:shame:

I would have expected this, of course with the reason, uncle would have known the better defense strategy.

 

[ColonelMustard]

From Carl's tweets, it doesn't seem like he knows much about appeals. I guess he (they?) didn't think they'd need to know anything.

 

[Cherwell]

As someone explained (or quoted some expert, do not recall clearly) a little earlier in the thread, in order for him to get bail, his team has to counter appeal the verdict or the sentence.

Yes, and I just know that Arnie & Lo are thoroughly enjoying having their house to themselves again at last

 

[ColonelMustard]

I personally don't believe so..no judge wants their verdict to be reversed. If she wanted him convicted of murder..she would have done so.

Unless she felt "threatened".

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

I personally don't believe so..no judge wants their verdict to be reversed. If she wanted him convicted of murder..she would have done so.

But that was the point of the speculation, had she convicted him of murder, the DT would possibly have appealed, and then he could have gotten a lower CH conviction. The only way she could guarantee he gets a murder sentence is for the PT to appeal. It was all just speculation anyway...

 

[akp]

Now that an appeal by the state is definitely on I guess uncle Arnold is going to have to pay Roux the rest of the money that OP owes him, about $559K British Pounds, if he wants Roux to handle the new fight. It's really funny to me how some here believed that OP and his uncle had more money than Bill Gates and were happy to spend whatever it took, and yet when Roux succeeded in getting OP a relatively short prison sentence the "Family" does not want to pay his bill!!!
:shame:

I think all that non payment of dues to his lawyers stuff is just carefully crafted PR exercise. With the kind of shaky ground they are on, they can not risk offending their lawyers. Some negotiations going on, possible, but refusing to pay half the amount, hardly likely.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Remember back right after the verdict, but before the sentencing someone here at WS wrote a post about how the verdict was possibly a clever ploy by Masipa herself - she wanted to ensure that the PT appeals the CH verdict so that it could be overturned to murder. Had JM given a harsher sentence, the DT would possibly have appealed, and subsequently get a lesser sentence. The speculation was that Masipa wanted to guarantee a murder sentence, but could only get it if she gave a lesser verdict, with high hopes that the PT appeals.

Does anyone else remember this? I wouldn't know where to start searching for this post, but I thought it was interesting. But to be honest, I personally don't see the mind of masipa being this devious. JMO!

This may have been my post.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...erdict-and-sentencing&p=10961808#post10961808

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

This may have been my post.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...erdict-and-sentencing&p=10961808#post10961808

Ah yes, thanks Lux. Excellent post - it made me think

There are still some possibly valid points in there, don't you think?

 

[Paul_1900]

Remember back right after the verdict, but before the sentencing someone here at WS wrote a post about how the verdict was possibly a clever ploy by Masipa herself - she wanted to ensure that the PT appeals the CH verdict so that it could be overturned to murder. Had JM given a harsher sentence, the DT would possibly have appealed, and subsequently get a lesser sentence. The speculation was that Masipa wanted to guarantee a murder sentence, but could only get it if she gave a lesser verdict, with high hopes that the PT appeals.

Does anyone else remember this? I wouldn't know where to start searching for this post, but I thought it was interesting. But to be honest, I personally don't see the mind of masipa being this devious. JMO!

yep, challenging thought - but too many twists and turns and too uncontrollable for JM from my POV

 

[ColonelMustard]

I think all that non payment of dues to his lawyers stuff is just carefully crafted PR exercise. With the kind of shaky ground they are on, they can not risk offending their lawyers. Some negotiations going on, possible, but refusing to pay half the amount, hardly likely.

Someone upthread mentioned that the family must have been happy as CH was the best they could have hoped for.

Maybe, they were paying Roux to get him acquitted. I'm sure Oscar thought so!

Plus didn't Uncle Arnold say in one of his first on air musings right after the murder, something about, ..."if this even goes to trial."

Unrelated but related: Aunt Lois saying to Nel during the trial, "Shame. Shame on you."

Whatever's going on with them, we know they are sure that OP and their family are victims of it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-conviction-sentence-south-africa-prosecutors


Oscar Pistorius prosecutors to appeal against verdict
Spokesman for South Africa’s national prosecuting authority says it will appeal culpable homicide ruling and five-year jail term


David Smith in Johannesburg
The Guardian, Monday 27 October 2014 13.29 GMT

It is thought that the state will argue Masipa misinterpreted the law around dolus eventualis murder, which means a perpetrator objectively foresees the possibility of his act causing death and persists regardless of the consequences. She ruled that this did not apply to Pistorius, although he was grossly negligent.

Weekend reports in South Africa suggested that the chief prosecutor, Gerrie Nel, is gearing up for round two. The Sunday Times said he would meet NPA head Mxolisi Nxasana on Monday. “Nel has already consulted outside legal experts,” the paper noted, adding that an appeal process would be scheduled to start on 3 November.

An appeal by the state against a verdict can only be made on a matter of law and does not involve a retrial or the submission of any new evidence. It is assumed the case will be heard by the supreme court of appeal in Bloemfontein in Free State province.



Carl Pistorius @carlpistorius · 4 Std. Vor 4 Stunden

Sitting with @SmithInAfrica at vida e cafe... what an interesting bloke. Could chat 4 days! #twitterfailhahaha


SmithInAfrica is David Smith from The Guardian

 

[Interested Bystander]

Attorney, Martin Hood, said: "Our criminal procedure act does prevent an appeal against factual findings, but we must remember that our criminal procedure act was passed long before our current constitution, and I believe there may well be constitutional grounds to appeal factual findings against the judge as well".

http://news.sky.com/story/1361213/prosecutors-to-appeal-oscar-pistorius-verdict

That looks promising. I know for a while there have been discussions about the Prosecution being allowed to appeal on Factual Findings mainly because so many of the less able judges were making nonsensical judgements.

 

[Paul_1900]

I think all that non payment of dues to his lawyers stuff is just carefully crafted PR exercise. With the kind of shaky ground they are on, they can not risk offending their lawyers. Some negotiations going on, possible, but refusing to pay half the amount, hardly likely.

agree with the PR interpretation, poor OP bla bla bla . . .though I feel it might not have been the perfect choice of time - not knowing an appeal would happen/not happen, in which they well will need Roux

But I don't pity them tooooo much :biggrin:

 

[ColonelMustard]

Another reason I'm glad this is being appealed:

If all of this had wound down and this forum become a ghost town, I would have missed all of you too much.

 

[mister happy]

Nope..it's not up to Masipa..they are filing the appeal DIRECTLY at the Supreme Court of appeals..

:happydance:

This is a very interesting short news story about the appeal:

http://youtu.be/Cu775ZxM5o0


One thing I had not heard before is that Nel and Roux will have to argue in front of Masipa about granting the appeal, after which she makes her decision. If yes, then it goes directly to the Supreme Court of Appeals.

If correct, that makes sense. Hope it's televised. Would LOVE to see Nel "put it to" Roux!

Well, I'm confused again. I want Masipa out of it, of course! Just go and retire MiLady.. please!

 

[AW2B]

Unless she felt "threatened".

Actually she needed police protection because of her outrageous verdict..IMO..she is simply a Pistorius's fan/admirer..

 

[akp]

But that was the point of the speculation, had she convicted him of murder, the DT would possibly have appealed, and then he could have gotten a lower CH conviction. The only way she could guarantee he gets a murder sentence is for the PT to appeal. It was all just speculation anyway...

Here your implicit assumption is that appeal means automatic overturning of the original verdict. In reality, I would think that overturning a verdict is in general less likely. So by giving a lighter conviction, she can not really `guarantee', but merely leaves open the possibility of an appeal followed by a harsher verdict. Similarly, giving a harsher verdict would have left open the possibility of a defence appeal followed by a lighter conviction. But if you then look at the whole trial, all the evidence presented, overturning of a verdict of Dolus Eventualis or even Dolus Directus would have been far less likely, because the judge wouldn't have to use ridiculous and for the most part incoherent reasoning and incorrect application of law in order to reach those verdicts, like she has done.