PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement

[Ames]

I dunno what to vote,would have voted for "no idea"....
I still would like to know who they called that morning,before dialing 911.And why the records were sealed.Another confusing issue,some say they were sealed,some that they just disappeared.Which is it?
Would make things a bit clearer as far as I am concerned.

Yep, me too! Would also like to know why Patsy is the one that called 911, when she stated in her interview that she was "hysterical", while John was "calm, and collected". If 911 needed to be called in my home, I would choose the "calm, and collected" one to do the calling...and the talking. (IMO...Patsy was the chosen one because she was the actress...and apparently the best liar...in the family).

 

[Ames]

didn't someone ( expert ) say once that she was indeed hung and was cut down? Was it John Welsh?

Honestly, I can't remember who stated it...but it was glossed over real quick and I never heard another word about it. I've often wondered if that indeed was the case and something LE was holding back.

Yep, it was John Walsh. (He is friends with the Ramsey's and believes they are innocent...sounds like he is just throwing something out there that maybe...John...told him. Makes it sound more like an IDI. And who better than John Walsh, to feed lies to? The man has his own show for crying out loud.)

 

[DeDee]

BBM Warning: Topic may be too sensitive for some

You can see the paper bag on her hand at the upper right of the photo. You can see the pattern of the living room rug at the upper left corner. In this photo, we can see how her arms are bent at the elbow almost at a right angle and NOT extended straight up over her head as depicted in the (very misleading) drawing we have all seen. When Arndt describes her arms as being " over her head without support" that is misleading, too because her arms were up and out in front of her (like a boxer's), thought I suppose could have been described as over her head, it was more accurate to say they were over her face. Still, without being in full rigor, they would not have been like that. The coroner's ruler can be seen over her face.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

Would that image happen to be a screen shot taken by Rose during the CourtTV televised JonBenet: Anatomy of a Cold Case? If so, is there reason to believe it may have been manipulated or otherwise altered?


Posed similar to boxers' w/ arms bent, fists are in front and lifted upward to protect the face?


Okay. Now lay that position horizontally with the victim placed on her back.

Your theory may be, if I understand, that rigor is holding her arms, at her side, bent at the elbow with her forearms pointing skyward, wrists near the face. Arms would require elevation under the back of the arms to keep the arms upward & fists toward the face during rigor.


OMG This child was hung. Her hands were bound by the cord at the wrists and held up and over her head to keep them restrained and out of the way of the attacker.

Her precious head *advertiser censored* to the right and dribbles a little body fluid onto her white shirt.

This killer was not afraid to show their contempt to this young victim. In fact, the blonde hair was pulled back from the face so she could better see her attacker. Her hands were bound up and over her head so there was no mistaking who was cruelly torturing and slowly snuffing her life.

:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:​

 

[DeeDee249]

BBM Warning: Topic may be too sensitive for some




Would that image happen to be a screen shot taken by Rose during the CourtTV televised JonBenet: Anatomy of a Cold Case? If so, is there reason to believe it may have been manipulated or otherwise altered?


Posed similar to boxers' w/ arms bent, fists are in front and lifted upward to protect the face?


Okay. Now lay that position horizontally with the victim placed on her back.

Your theory may be, if I understand, that rigor is holding her arms, at her side, bent at the elbow with her forearms pointing skyward, wrists near the face. Arms would require elevation under the back of the arms to keep the arms upward & fists toward the face during rigor.


OMG This child was hung. Her hands were bound by the cord at the wrists and held up and over her head to keep them restrained and out of the way of the attacker.

Her precious head *advertiser censored* to the right and dribbles a little body fluid onto her white shirt.

This killer was not afraid to show their contempt to this young victim. In fact, the blonde hair was pulled back from the face so she could better see her attacker. Her hands were bound up and over her head so there was no mistaking who was cruelly torturing and slowly snuffing her life.

:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:​

Rigor can bend the arms at the elbows. The photo is supposed to be a crime photo, one of many sold to The Globe. I have no idea whether is is a screen shot. It doesn't look like it.
I disagree she was hung in any way. The body shows no evidence of that. Her wrists show no evidence of being bound tightly enough to have suspended her weight. There were no ligature marks on her wrists and the coroner would have had to mention this if they were there. His report would also have had to mention the hanging. He described it as a ligature strangulation, and the circumferential ligature furrow indicates she was not hung or suspended by that ligature.
So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Rigor can bend the arms at the elbows. The photo is supposed to be a crime photo, one of many sold to The Globe. I have no idea whether is is a screen shot. It doesn't look like it.

I disagree she was hung in any way. The body shows no evidence of that. Her wrists show no evidence of being bound tightly enough to have suspended her weight. There were no ligature marks on her wrists and the coroner would have had to mention this if they were there. His report would also have had to mention the hanging. He described it as a ligature strangulation, and the circumferential ligature furrow indicates she was not hung or suspended by that ligature.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I agree. She wasn't hung.

The reason I brought it up back in 2010 ...I found it odd a Ramsey confidant would say such a thing


Muscles contract during rigor, typically pulling them up in that boxer pose IIRC.


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[DeDee]

Rigor can bend the arms at the elbows. The photo is supposed to be a crime photo, one of many sold to The Globe. I have no idea whether is is a screen shot. It doesn't look like it.
I disagree she was hung in any way. The body shows no evidence of that. Her wrists show no evidence of being bound tightly enough to have suspended her weight. There were no ligature marks on her wrists and the coroner would have had to mention this if they were there. His report would also have had to mention the hanging. He described it as a ligature strangulation, and the circumferential ligature furrow indicates she was not hung or suspended by that ligature.
So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

The statement from my previous post did not include her entire body hanging anywhere. JonBenet was in the supine position or face up while on her back. Her entire body was not hanging nor did the cord around her wrists support her body weight. The white nylon cord tied around her wrists had 17" between the loops that [cord] was suspended to hold her hands out of the way for her killer.

Linda, I am aware that the jaw falls during rigor as witnessed by her open mouth. You may remember Paul Walker, an actor, who died a horrible death in a high speed fiery car crash last year. His autopsy stated he was in the pugilistic stance sometimes referred to as the boxer's stance or boxer's position.


Pugilistic stance
Pugilistic attitude Forensic medicine A 'defensive' position fancifully likened to that adopted by pugilists-boxers found in severely burned bodies, characterized by flexion of elbows, knees, hip, and neck, and clenching of hand into a fist; it is caused by high-temperatures in fire, resulting in muscle stiffening and shortening; it occurs even if the person was dead before the fire

McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

Pugilistic Stance

A ‘defensive’ position fancifully likened to that adopted by pugilists (boxers), which is typically seen in severely burned bodies, characterised by flexion of elbows, knees, hip, and neck, and clenching of hand into a fist; it is caused by high-temperatures in fire, resulting in muscle stiffening and shortening; it occurs even if the person was dead before the fire

Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.


We know the concrete room was cold or at least cool bc JR stored his cigars in this room.

• The onset of rigor mortis is more rapid if the environment is cold
  
• Many infant and child corpses will not exhibit perceptible rigor mortis. This decreased perceptible stiffness may be due to their smaller muscle mass.
  
• It was ritually important to close the eyes quickly, being that they are the first to rigidify in rigor mortis

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html#ixzz2tLzcEHu5

Therefore the statement remains unchanged:

Her hands were bound by the cord at the wrists and held up and over her head to keep them restrained and out of the way of the attacker.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The statement from my previous post did not include her entire body hanging anywhere. JonBenet was in the supine position or face up while on her back. Her entire body was not hanging nor did the cord around her wrists support her body weight. The white nylon cord tied around her wrists had 17" between the loops that [cord] was suspended to hold her hands out of the way for her killer.



Linda, I am aware that the jaw falls during rigor as witnessed by her open mouth. You may remember Paul Walker, an actor, who died a horrible death in a high speed fiery car crash last year. His autopsy stated he was in the pugilistic stance sometimes referred to as the boxer's stance or boxer's position.





Pugilistic stance

Pugilistic attitude Forensic medicine A 'defensive' position fancifully likened to that adopted by pugilists-boxers found in severely burned bodies, characterized by flexion of elbows, knees, hip, and neck, and clenching of hand into a fist; it is caused by high-temperatures in fire, resulting in muscle stiffening and shortening; it occurs even if the person was dead before the fire



McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.



Pugilistic Stance



A ‘defensive’ position fancifully likened to that adopted by pugilists (boxers), which is typically seen in severely burned bodies, characterised by flexion of elbows, knees, hip, and neck, and clenching of hand into a fist; it is caused by high-temperatures in fire, resulting in muscle stiffening and shortening; it occurs even if the person was dead before the fire



Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.





We know the concrete room was cold or at least cool bc JR stored his cigars in this room.

• The onset of rigor mortis is more rapid if the environment is cold
  
  
  
• Many infant and child corpses will not exhibit perceptible rigor mortis. This decreased perceptible stiffness may be due to their smaller muscle mass.
  
  
  
• It was ritually important to close the eyes quickly, being that they are the first to rigidify in rigor mortis
  

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html#ixzz2tLzcEHu5



Therefore the statement remains unchanged:

I think you should slap a "IMO" on you're statement, as it is NOT a fact.

The 17 inches, the lack of abrasions on her wrist, and the fact she could have easily removed the bindings tells me something.




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[Venom]

Why would the killer want her hands out of the way?

 

[DeDee]

Why would the killer want her hands out of the way?

Only the killer knows for certain. Perhaps the killer wanted to control the victim while she was sexually assaulted and tortured. With her hands out of the way, there was less chance of her loosening the cord around her neck. There would be less chance of her hands grasping the killer's hair or DNA appearing under her fingernails, and so forth.

I wonder if they sold brown cotton garden gloves at McGuckin's Hardware.

Lou Smit Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia) Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Action

Q. And does that include brown cotton fibers?

A. Yes. Brown cotton fibers are found on the broken piece of the paintbrush. Brown cotton fibers are found on the duct tape, on the ligature, and on the body of JonBenet.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think you should slap a "IMO" on you're statement, as it is NOT a fact.

The 17 inches, the lack of abrasions on her wrist, and the fact she could have easily removed the bindings tells me something.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. There is no proof whatsoever that her hands were ever tightly bound and up over her head. But there IS proof that her hands were not tightly bound at all. That proof is the autopsy, which does not note any marks from binding on her wrists.
Two people alone saw the body in situ just before she was brought up. JR and FW. FW knew whether her hands were "tightly bound" and whether JR tried to untie her as he said he had. FW knows what REALLY happened in those first moments in the WC. He has made no public comment, but I would hope he told LE.

 

[otg]

The boxer’s position (or pugilistic position, or equestrian position) referred to in a cadaver is a reaction to heat rather than a normal body response during rigor mortis. It is uncommon unless a person has perhaps died in a house fire, or their body has in some way been exposed to extreme heat. Extreme heat causes rapid drying of the muscle tissue and tendons, therefore shrinkage -- which results in contraction of the limbs at their joints. If you’ve ever cooked some kind of meat (muscle tissue) in the oven or a pan and seen it curl one way or another, you’ve seen this very thing happen because of the difference in the rate of shrinkage. The reason is simple: rigor mortis is a biochemical reaction within the cells of tissue in the body that causes the muscles to stiffen (hence the origin of calling a dead person a “stiff&#8221, muscle contraction is a biophysical reaction occurring because of the drying out of fluid within the tissue (resulting in shrinkage and therefore pulling of the muscles at the flexible joints).

During the fall of Nazi Germany, Joseph Goebbels and his wife killed their six children and then themselves. His aides tried to burn his body -- I guess because they wanted to keep those evil Allied Forces from desecrating his hallowed remains. But because of an insufficient amount of fuel (their having to ration it between cremation and fuel to make good their escape), his body wasn’t completely burned -- just “cooked medium-well”. It was found bent at the hips and knees with one arm raised showing an outstretched hand (actually, the other arm burned or fell off). Soldiers who found the body joked that he looked like he was riding a horse (equestrian position) and “sieg heiling” his beloved Führer even in death. (Pictures of his and his family’s discovered remains are easily found by doing an image search.)

Attached at the bottom of this post is a scanned picture from Dissecting Death: Secrets of a Medical Examiner (Frederick Zugibe M.D., David L. Carroll). I’ve taken the liberty of censoring the “naughty parts”, but if you chose to open it, understand that it shows a dead person (in black and white). If you choose not to open it, I’ll describe it as showing a person on his back with his arms up in the air and his knees and hips bent. The caption underneath says:

The decedent is turned on his back. Note that he is in full rigor mortis, with both arms suspended rigidly in the air. If he were found in this position, it would indicate that the body had developed rigor mortis prior to being dumped.
​

So I don’t think the position of JonBenet’s arms had anything to do with anything other than their having been in that position during the development of rigor mortis. After all, they didn't just raise up on their own overcoming the weight/pressure of the blanket that was wrapped around her. If I were going to venture a guess as to why her arms and elbows are bent as they are (since we just don’t know), I’d propose the following scenario (this is just one possibility):

Imagine the person(s) handling her body (after cleaning and redressing her) turned her over on her stomach in order to tie the broken paintbrush to the cord that had strangled her. Shortly after death, there is no rigor and no lividity. While in this position, her arms were pulled up extending them over her head so a separate section of the cord could be tied to her wrists. Then the blanket is laid on top of her tucking one side under her before rolling her over onto her back. Then the two sides of the blanket could be folded over (“papoose-style&#8221 ready for laying down on the floor. With the blanket wrapped around her, her arms would remain in this position while rigor set in.

 

[midwest mama]

:read: Bumping up this thread thinking it might be a good place to put this link:
http://www.trialrun.com/profiles/jon-benet_ramsey2.html

If you have some time, IMO, it's an interesting article about a profile of the Ramsey ransom note writer, which seems to have some credentials in place to back up the author's work.

If you are on the fence RDI, it might help you come to a further impression of which one of them could have written the note, even though most follow the small consensus of professional opinions that PR cannot be excluded.

I have never been able to be convinced that JR should have been ignored as the possible author, since his own hired professionals were the ones who immediately eliminated him. And also because the first impression of LE was that he was the most likely suspect as the perpetrator. Though I certainly am no professional when it comes to handwriting, I tend to see JR's exemplar exhibiting several similarities to the handwriting in the RN, especially on the last page of the note. Strictly MOO.

 

[Chrishope]

[h=2]View Poll Results: PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement[/h]
I've said this before, so please forgive the repetition, but a RN does not explain a dead body. It explains why a person is missing.

A convincing kidnapping can't be staged when the body is also present because the presence of the body indicates very clearly there was no kidnapping.

 

[Frigga]

[h=2]View Poll Results: PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement[/h]
I've said this before, so please forgive the repetition, but a RN does not explain a dead body. It explains why a person is missing.

A convincing kidnapping can't be staged when the body is also present because the presence of the body indicates very clearly there was no kidnapping.

Which for me, is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that the Ramsey's were involved, along with the true bills from the Grand Jury proceedings.

 

[Chrishope]

Which for me, is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that the Ramsey's were involved, along with the true bills from the Grand Jury proceedings.

It's certainly strong evidence that at least one R was involved. IMO it also strongly indicates that both (JR/PR) were not involved. Many like the idea that PR couldn't bear to dump the body, but I don't accept that. If she was in on the murder why be squeamish about dumping the body? If she was in on only the coverup it would be apparent to her that it had little chance of success with the body in the basement.

Some like to point out that their "plan" did succeed, and because of the incompetence and of both police and prosecutors it's impossible to dismiss this altogether. But, I don't believe anyone would have expected such a plan to work. A kidnapping simply isn't believable with the body present.

ST didn't believe it. Kolar doesn't believe it. LS claims to believe IDI, but he never claims there was a kidnapping. IDI might believe it started as a kidnapping and morphed into a sex murder, but even IDI know there was no completed kidnapping. RDI obviously don't believe there was a kidnapping. It's hard to believe the Rs thought anyone would buy the kidnapping scenario once the body was found.

Since the 911 call was made while the body was in the basement, PR either didn't know, or deliberately screwed up the staging making it completely unbelievable.

 

[THE BUNK]

The Ransom Note also explains why only one person is dead. The note only specifies that JonBenet will die. In a Ransom kidnap normally only the people kidnapped are in danger of being killed. This note gives a specefic reason why JonBenet would be the only person murdered.

 

[bettybaby00]

It's certainly strong evidence that at least one R was involved. IMO it also strongly indicates that both (JR/PR) were not involved. Many like the idea that PR couldn't bear to dump the body, but I don't accept that. If she was in on the murder why be squeamish about dumping the body? If she was in on only the coverup it would be apparent to her that it had little chance of success with the body in the basement.

Some like to point out that their "plan" did succeed, and because of the incompetence and of both police and prosecutors it's impossible to dismiss this altogether. But, I don't believe anyone would have expected such a plan to work. A kidnapping simply isn't believable with the body present.

ST didn't believe it. Kolar doesn't believe it. LS claims to believe IDI, but he never claims there was a kidnapping. IDI might believe it started as a kidnapping and morphed into a sex murder, but even IDI know there was no completed kidnapping. RDI obviously don't believe there was a kidnapping. It's hard to believe the Rs thought anyone would buy the kidnapping scenario once the body was found.

Since the 911 call was made while the body was in the basement, PR either didn't know, or deliberately screwed up the staging making it completely unbelievable.

For me the RN meant confusion which was then magnified when friends, the minister, the pediatrician as well as the windex wielding victim advocates were added to the mix, but more importantly, the note bought them time.

Time to establish themselves as victims. We'll never know if they believed that LE would leave the scene quickly, or if they figured JRB wouldn't be found quickly, but either way their victim status was firmly entrenched, and it allowed them to walk out the front door without a backward glance. Once that happened, the lawyers took control.

 

[Chrishope]

For me the RN meant confusion which was then magnified when friends, the minister, the pediatrician as well as the windex wielding victim advocates were added to the mix, but more importantly, the note bought them time.

Time to establish themselves as victims. We'll never know if they believed that LE would leave the scene quickly, or if they figured JRB wouldn't be found quickly, but either way their victim status was firmly entrenched, and it allowed them to walk out the front door without a backward glance. Once that happened, the lawyers took control.

IMO we do know. No reasonable person who had ever watched a crime show or read a crime novel would think the police were just going to go away, even while the case remained a kidnapping. When the body is found their "victim status" is almost impossible to believe (except for IDIs) They'd have to have considered dogs being brought in, which would mean that the body would be found within minutes.

 

[THE BUNK]

IMO we do know. No reasonable person who had ever watched a crime show or read a crime novel would think the police were just going to go away, even while the case remained a kidnapping. When the body is found their "victim status" is almost impossible to believe (except for IDIs) They'd have to have considered dogs being brought in, which would mean that the body would be found within minutes.

You'd be surprised how many lay people are completely unaware of even the most basic investigative techniques.

 

[otg]

Attached at the bottom of this post is a scanned picture from Dissecting Death: Secrets of a Medical Examiner (Frederick Zugibe M.D., David L. Carroll). I’ve taken the liberty of censoring the “naughty parts”, but if you chose to open it, understand that it shows a dead person (in black and white). If you choose not to open it, I’ll describe it as showing a person on his back with his arms up in the air and his knees and hips bent.

Holy M o G! Since midwest mama dug up:giggle: this old thread, I apologize to anyone who might be offended. What happened with the new forum software that caused an attached photo to go from a tiny little thumbnail to the entire attachment blown up and included in the post? When I posted it, I didn't want anyone to be unknowingly forced into looking at that gruesome photo unless they chose to open it. Did this happen to all attached photos?

Can the post be altered to delete the photo, and replace it with a link?

TIA