PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement

[chlban]

You'd be surprised how many lay people are completely unaware of even the most basic investigative techniques.

Partcularly since this was 1996. Granted there were crime shows like Law and Order but not the CSI shows or the abundance of true crime type shows such as currently run 24/7 on ID. I am a L & O fanatic, and they rarely covered the forensic side of the investigations like CSI, as an example.

 

[UKGuy]

[h=2]View Poll Results: PR/JR wrote the RN to explain their dead daughter in basement[/h]
I've said this before, so please forgive the repetition, but a RN does not explain a dead body. It explains why a person is missing.

A convincing kidnapping can't be staged when the body is also present because the presence of the body indicates very clearly there was no kidnapping.

Chrishope,
Ahem, an extremely convincing staged kidnapping was evident until JR discovered JonBenet!

.

 

[DeDee]

Holy M o G! Since midwest mama dug up:giggle: this old thread, I apologize to anyone who might be offended. What happened with the new forum software that caused an attached photo to go from a tiny little thumbnail to the entire attachment blown up and included in the post? When I posted it, I didn't want anyone to be unknowingly forced into looking at that gruesome photo unless they chose to open it. Did this happen to all attached photos?

Can the post be altered to delete the photo, and replace it with a link?

TIA

otg, when I clicked on your embedded post, it took me to here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?2590-freeway-killer-in-Columbus&p=102430#post102430

Since the upgrade, I attached a photo on another case and it did not appear as a thumbnail so I removed it and posted the link to the photo instead.

 

[midwest mama]

Chrishope,
Ahem, an extremely convincing staged kidnapping was evident until JR discovered JonBenet!

.

Here's a question...What could have been the outcome of the 26th IF Arndt had not asked JR to take someone along and go looking for something "top to bottom" that seemed unusual?

Without JR "discovering" the body, and no ransom demand call having come through, what would have been the next step?

John Fernie had gone to get the money, so it was on hand. JR turned down Archuletta's suggestion of using JR's plane to go directly to get the older kids picked up, instead letting them take a commercial flight to Denver. IIRC, he said he wanted to keep the plane on standby in case it was needed.

Was JR trying to hatch a plan to fly off into the sunset with the $118K if he could have managed to slip away in the following hours as cops would have tried to figure out what to do while waiting until the morning of the 27th for the call? Surely the odor of decomposition would have started to become apparent?

If JB had not been "found", and later that day the dogs on standby would have discovered her, would there have been any chance the police would have thought that it was really a "kidnapping gone awry" after all?

 

[Anti-K]

It's certainly strong evidence that at least one R was involved. IMO it also strongly indicates that both (JR/PR) were not involved. Many like the idea that PR couldn't bear to dump the body, but I don't accept that. If she was in on the murder why be squeamish about dumping the body? If she was in on only the coverup it would be apparent to her that it had little chance of success with the body in the basement.

Some like to point out that their "plan" did succeed, and because of the incompetence and of both police and prosecutors it's impossible to dismiss this altogether. But, I don't believe anyone would have expected such a plan to work. A kidnapping simply isn't believable with the body present.

ST didn't believe it. Kolar doesn't believe it. LS claims to believe IDI, but he never claims there was a kidnapping. IDI might believe it started as a kidnapping and morphed into a sex murder, but even IDI know there was no completed kidnapping. RDI obviously don't believe there was a kidnapping. It's hard to believe the Rs thought anyone would buy the kidnapping scenario once the body was found.

Since the 911 call was made while the body was in the basement, PR either didn't know, or deliberately screwed up the staging making it completely unbelievable.

I agree with most of what you say here. But, one of the reasons it [Docg theory] falls apart is that Mr Ramsey, at minimum, and by all accounts and by reason, “allowed” Mrs Ramsey to make the call.

If we conclude that Mrs Ramsey would not make the call, than it follows that she could not allow Mr Ramsey to make the call. The argument is the same for Mr Ramsey, if we conclude that Mr Ramsey would not make the call, than it follows that he could not allow Mrs Ramsey to make the call. The call was made; therefore, neither Ramsey was aware of the body in the basement.
...

AK

 

[otg]

otg, when I clicked on your embedded post, it took me to here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?2590-freeway-killer-in-Columbus&p=102430#post102430

Since the upgrade, I attached a photo on another case and it did not appear as a thumbnail so I removed it and posted the link to the photo instead.

Thanks, DeDee. I have absolutely no idea what happened. I posted it as a reply to my own Post #191, in this thread, so it would have the appropriate quote. I've never even been to the thread that ended up being linked in the resulting post. There seems to be at least a few bugs in the new software. Hope the mods can get it straightened out.

 

[otg]

Thanks, DeDee. I have absolutely no idea what happened. I posted it as a reply to my own Post #191, in this thread, so it would have the appropriate quote. I've never even been to the thread that ended up being linked in the resulting post. There seems to be at least a few bugs in the new software. Hope the mods can get it straightened out.

Okay, I figured it out.

When I clicked on "Reply With Quote", the reply box begins with "[ QUOTE = otg;10243014]The boxer’s position..." When I swept with the mouse and highlighted the text I wanted to delete at the beginning, I remember noticing that I had carelessly included the "]" in the removed text. So I typed it in and continued editing my reply beginning with the words "Attached at the bottom of this post...". What I didn't realize is that I had also deleted the "1" and the "4" at the end of the quote number. This made my response link to an entirely different post whose number was "102430" instead of "10243014".

If I lost anyone, the bottom line is that it was my carelessness that caused the quote to link to another unrelated post. No bugs here.

​

 

[UKGuy]

Here's a question...What could have been the outcome of the 26th IF Arndt had not asked JR to take someone along and go looking for something "top to bottom" that seemed unusual?

Without JR "discovering" the body, and no ransom demand call having come through, what would have been the next step?

John Fernie had gone to get the money, so it was on hand. JR turned down Archuletta's suggestion of using JR's plane to go directly to get the older kids picked up, instead letting them take a commercial flight to Denver. IIRC, he said he wanted to keep the plane on standby in case it was needed.

Was JR trying to hatch a plan to fly off into the sunset with the $118K if he could have managed to slip away in the following hours as cops would have tried to figure out what to do while waiting until the morning of the 27th for the call? Surely the odor of decomposition would have started to become apparent?

If JB had not been "found", and later that day the dogs on standby would have discovered her, would there have been any chance the police would have thought that it was really a "kidnapping gone awry" after all?

midwest mama,
Well JR was certainly planning something, since he moved BR out of the house. I think he had planned on flying away and leaving JonBenet to be found whenever. Once this avenue was closed off he would most likely have taken any opportunity to leave the house and never return.

I guess the police would have provisionally assumed it was a kidnapping gone wrong, but eventually with no ransom call and nobody to collect the money suspicion would fall directly onto the R's.

The R's initial assumption must have been: JonBenet will be found then the parents will be arrested and taken into custody for questioning. That this never happened allowed JR to execute Plan B, i.e. relocate BR, next leave Boulder ASAP!

So not being able to fly away, and nobody watching JR he rolls out Plan C: check the forensics, if everything looks OK, then find JonBenet, at this point he was so confident he carries JonBenet upstairs.

JR was likely hoping that his discovery would be treated as a kidnapping gone wrong and he and PR could leave town?


.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Well JR was certainly planning something, since he moved BR out of the house. I think he had planned on flying away and leaving JonBenet to be found whenever. Once this avenue was closed off he would most likely have taken any opportunity to leave the house and never return.

I guess the police would have provisionally assumed it was a kidnapping gone wrong, but eventually with no ransom call and nobody to collect the money suspicion would fall directly onto the R's.

The R's initial assumption must have been: JonBenet will be found then the parents will be arrested and taken into custody for questioning. That this never happened allowed JR to execute Plan B, i.e. relocate BR, next leave Boulder ASAP!

So not being able to fly away, and nobody watching JR he rolls out Plan C: check the forensics, if everything looks OK, then find JonBenet, at this point he was so confident he carries JonBenet upstairs.

JR was likely hoping that his discovery would be treated as a kidnapping gone wrong and he and PR could leave town?


.

In a scenario with both the adult R's considered perps, and BR safely sequestered with JR's best friend, IMO, it is certainly possible the R's would have attempted to leave the country if they figured the police would loosen up their watch once there was no incoming ransom call that morning. I believe LE would have arrived at the consensus that the ransom call was coming on the 27th, and would have given the R's enough freedoms for them to figure out how to slip away to the airport. They could have even collected BR from the White's and taken him along, been safely into the air, before BPD would have even realized they were no longer in the area?

 

[midwest mama]

:seeya:Hey otg:

Just to let you know, I really hesitated bumping up this thread when I saw the photo you referred to a few posts ago. I had no memory of ever having seen it before, so was glad you commented as to why the photo was appearing. It's disturbing, but so were some of the autopsy photos of JB, and in my continued quest to keep prodding into the details of this crime hoping that there MUST be some way to look at it from a perspective that would give some fresh insight, I keep going back to the note and why a kidnapping would have been hatched as a coverup.

Is some recent reading, the fact that JR might not have been able to "discover" JB's body, if Arndt had not sent him, rattled me to try to think about how that note would have provided a way for one or both of the adult R's to keep themselves off the hook for her murder.

If the kidnapping scheme was devised in order to provide for time and escape, then we are dealing with someone who was desperate knowing a sexually motivated crime would be discovered, IMO.:thinking:

 

[DeeDee249]

In a scenario with both the adult R's considered perps, and BR safely sequestered with JR's best friend, IMO, it is certainly possible the R's would have attempted to leave the country if they figured the police would loosen up their watch once there was no incoming ransom call that morning. I believe LE would have arrived at the consensus that the ransom call was coming on the 27th, and would have given the R's enough freedoms for them to figure out how to slip away to the airport. They could have even collected BR from the White's and taken him along, been safely into the air, before BPD would have even realized they were no longer in the area?

I can see how the Rs did not realize they would not be allowed to leave- after all JR was overheard by police trying to arrange a private plane for Atlanta MINUTES after he "found" his dead daughter. Never a thought about leaving her body behind to be taken alone to the morgue and then dissected at autopsy. Just "get outta Dodge". However, I can't believe Patsy would have fled the country, leaving JB behind in the basement like a dead dog. In fact, most people wound't leave their dog. I just don't see that as something they'd do. I can see JR wanting to get the family out of state ASAP, however, I believe murder is a Federal crime and they could have been extradited from Atlanta had they fled.

 

[midwest mama]

I can see how the Rs did not realize they would not be allowed to leave- after all JR was overheard by police trying to arrange a private plane for Atlanta MINUTES after he "found" his dead daughter. Never a thought about leaving her body behind to be taken alone to the morgue and then dissected at autopsy. Just "get outta Dodge". However, I can't believe Patsy would have fled the country, leaving JB behind in the basement like a dead dog. In fact, most people wound't leave their dog. I just don't see that as something they'd do. I can see JR wanting to get the family out of state ASAP, however, I believe murder is a Federal crime and they could have been extradited from Atlanta had they fled.

Agree that only going off somewhere withing the US would have done no good as an escape for them. Also, have to agree with the BBM above. If we ask ourselves again, what if Arndt had not asked JR to go look, and we look at all the other other aspects: note, money, 911 call by PR, plane kept at the ready, JR acting "nervous" after no ransom call, and add his attempt at keeping his plane on reserve in order to make arrangements to "tend to business" in Atlanta, is it possible to consider that JR might have been ready to "get out of Dodge" on his own? JR was a start over type of guy...came back after a divorce, got his business going after a couple of failures, etc. He had the mentality it took to believe he would be a survivor. If he ended up killing JB in a sexually motivated rage, he would have HAD to figure out how to get himself away from the crime with some money to start up again.

 

[DeeDee249]

Agree that only going off somewhere withing the US would have done no good as an escape for them. Also, have to agree with the BBM above. If we ask ourselves again, what if Arndt had not asked JR to go look, and we look at all the other other aspects: note, money, 911 call by PR, plane kept at the ready, JR acting "nervous" after no ransom call, and add his attempt at keeping his plane on reserve in order to make arrangements to "tend to business" in Atlanta, is it possible to consider that JR might have been ready to "get out of Dodge" on his own? JR was a start over type of guy...came back after a divorce, got his business going after a couple of failures, etc. He had the mentality it took to believe he would be a survivor. If he ended up killing JB in a sexually motivated rage, he would have HAD to figure out how to get himself away from the crime with some money to start up again.

I suppose he might have had some frenzied thoughts about an escape like that, but he'd never truly be able to start over. His flight itself would seal his guilt. Even if he fled to a country with no extradition, I seriously doubt he'd just be able to start a new life somewhere else and just leave this mess, and his children, behind him. If he used an alias, etc, someday-somehow- it would come back to bite him in the ***.

 

[midwest mama]

I suppose he might have had some frenzied thoughts about an escape like that, but he'd never truly be able to start over. His flight itself would seal his guilt. Even if he fled to a country with no extradition, I seriously doubt he'd just be able to start a new life somewhere else and just leave this mess, and his children, behind him. If he used an alias, etc, someday-somehow- it would come back to bite him in the ***.

Only a man who had killed his 6 yr old daughter during a sexual crime against her, including the aspect of enough rage to inflict that head wound, would have the determination to try to get away with it in that manner, IMO. I am not sure JR was in a well-balanced personal emotional state, even though he was functioning well in his business life. Of course, capable underlings can keep corporate appearances up for malfunctioning bosses.

He was using medications to help with his continued mourning over Beth's death. She was his special one. I wonder about the ornament angel that was taken into evidence from the wine cellar. JB had a special Beth angel ornament on the tree in her room. IIRC, JR talked in one of his books about his sadness that Beth would not know any more Christmases.

Even though we entertain the thoughts that Patsy was going through unusual mental health at the time of JB's death, there was not any mention of her having alarmed someone near her with detectable symptoms, whereas JR's continued grieving for Beth was noticed.

Yes, an escape by JR from the crime scene surely would have led to a life of deception and self-delusion for him. We'll never know if he would have been able to pull it off. As it turned out, all he had to do after a reasonable amount of time once Hunter let the R's off the hook, was make a new plan that included becoming an author/celebrity who trumped up his Christian crusade life. It saddens and infuriates me to think his Devout Christian personna now is his "escape hatch".

 

[jerseygirl48]

Interesting comments regarding the letter by a former FBI profiler here (skip to last three minutes):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4HCfcUU4iKM

 

[THE BUNK]

You know, the more I think about it. I believe the Ramseys had multiple plans in play.

Plan 1 - There may have had an idea of confessing to this crime and dealing with the risks.
Plan 2 - Staging a Kidnapping with JonBenet never returning. She is buried in undisclosed location.
Plan 3- Staging a sexual assault by a pedophile.
Plan 4- Escape plan where they use the ransom note as a delay tactic


Their could have been several ideas that the Ramseys discussed. Circumstances beyond their control may have forced them into going with the plan that utimately occurred.

I wonder if that circumstance was that Burke woke up and saw what they were doing.

 

[DeeDee249]

The FBI profiler said what so many of us have said over the years- it reads like a novelette- WAY too long, and with its movie references and bizarre (his words) ransom amount, it was clear that this was written as something other that what it was purported to be. In other words, it wasn't a REAL ransom note- it was part of the staging of the crime scene.

 

[elannia]

Just wondering. .. what the R'were thinking when no one found her? What would be their plan then? And if they did find her (LE) how would they explain that? (uh we found JB in your basement and she has been murdered) the crime should have been solved then. Poor officer french... he was only looking for an entry out and didnt open the door. do you think if no one found her and John wouldnt have "found" her they would have left her behind?

 

[Anti-K]

The FBI profiler said what so many of us have said over the years- it reads like a novelette- WAY too long, and with its movie references and bizarre (his words) ransom amount, it was clear that this was written as something other that what it was purported to be. In other words, it wasn't a REAL ransom note- it was part of the staging of the crime scene.

Hola! We agree on something.
...

AK

 

[THE BUNK]

Hola! We agree on something.
...

AK

You agree that the ransom note was part of staging a crime scene? You believe there was staging from an IDI perspective?

Are you also ruling out that this was a botched kidnapping?